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Australian pilots can work for US regionals.

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Australian pilots can work for US regionals.

Old 7th Jun 2022, 11:35
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Originally Posted by Thumb War
I donít think you have to register, the profiles section is hidden in a different menu.
TW,

Found the "Profiles" info on APC. It's cruel to change things on a old guy.
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Old 7th Jun 2022, 12:10
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I see the AFAP post something on their Facebook page today about how the US doesnít have a pilot shortage, because apparently thereís 1.5 pilots per every one needed.

Is the AFAP getting the shits with pilots leaving Australia and transferring to overseas memberships?
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Old 7th Jun 2022, 12:58
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Originally Posted by morno
I see the AFAP post something on their Facebook page today about how the US doesnít have a pilot shortage, because apparently thereís 1.5 pilots per every one needed.

Is the AFAP getting the shits with pilots leaving Australia and transferring to overseas memberships?
They definitely seem to be, they're no longer allowing job ads for E3 pilots on their site.
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Old 7th Jun 2022, 13:17
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Originally Posted by morno
Is the AFAP getting the shits with pilots leaving Australia and transferring to overseas memberships?
Is there any documented evidence that the E3 flow to the USA is having a negative effect on the Australian aviation industry ? I'd find that hard to imagine.

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Old 7th Jun 2022, 20:40
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Originally Posted by morno
I see the AFAP post something on their Facebook page today about how the US doesnít have a pilot shortage, because apparently thereís 1.5 pilots per every one needed.

Is the AFAP getting the shits with pilots leaving Australia and transferring to overseas memberships?
Thatís a pretty long bow to draw.

It was a re post of an ALPA post which stated that there are 1.5 pilots for every job needed in the US, and that pushes by some of the US operators to reduce training requirements (ie the 1500 hour rule) should be resisted - and itís arguably this rule thatís helping to ensure that pilotís terms and conditions in the US are significantly on the improve.

The post then goes on to say that since the 1500 hour rule was introduced in 2010, that the US saw a 99% decrease in airline fatalities compared to the previous decade.
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Old 7th Jun 2022, 21:12
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Lacking any solid evidence (so far) that the USA's 1500-hour rule is having a negative effect on domestic Aussie pilot supply, I don't see any reason for them to complain. And with the pervasiveness of the internet, AFAP barring ads from US carriers won't have an effect anyway.

Maybe the complaint is the drain on highly experienced Aussie pilots going north ? I just don't know.


As for the 1.5 pilots per job in the USA, here's the source of that number:

https://www.alpa.org/advocacy/pilot-supply
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 00:30
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Klink
Thatís a pretty long bow to draw.

It was a re post of an ALPA post which stated that there are 1.5 pilots for every job needed in the US, and that pushes by some of the US operators to reduce training requirements (ie the 1500 hour rule) should be resisted - and itís arguably this rule thatís helping to ensure that pilotís terms and conditions in the US are significantly on the improve.

The post then goes on to say that since the 1500 hour rule was introduced in 2010, that the US saw a 99% decrease in airline fatalities compared to the previous decade.
Given the negative email they also recently sent out, effectively telling pilots to avoid going to the US, you have to wonder what their real agenda is. Why all of a sudden do they care what Australian pilots do overseas?
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 00:59
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Lacking any solid evidence (so far) that the USA's 1500-hour rule is having a negative effect on domestic Aussie pilot supply, I don't see any reason for them to complain.
At a very rough guess, for every Aussie pilot that I know of that is in the recruiting process for an Australian airline, there at least 2 or 3 are doing so for American airlines (mainly Atlas at this stage). I know many more pilots that have got a start in America in the last few months compared to in Australia.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 14:03
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Originally Posted by morno
Given the negative email they also recently sent out, effectively telling pilots to avoid going to the US, you have to wonder what their real agenda is. Why all of a sudden do they care what Australian pilots do overseas?
I agree that there is something fishy going on with their vendetta against E3s.

Telling us that we are allowing ourselves to be exploited over here with absolutely no evidence.

Meanwhile not a peep about Australians working for free in Vietnam.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 15:52
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Originally Posted by umop apisdn
I agree that there is something fishy going on with their vendetta against E3s.

Telling us that we are allowing ourselves to be exploited over here with absolutely no evidence.

Meanwhile not a peep about Australians working for free in Vietnam.
The size of the egos involved in the AFAP can't be understated. Why they've decided to take a stand on the E3 hill is beyond me because not only do they not know what they're talking about, they're just plain wrong.
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Old 8th Jun 2022, 22:19
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The size of the egos involved in the AFAP can't be understated. Why they've decided to take a stand on the E3 hill is beyond me because not only do they not know what they're talking about, they're just plain wrong.
What a joke of an organisation. In a very basic calculation the minimum wage in Australia is 42K approx. An instructor grade 3 would be earning this, after shelling out a significant amount to gain the licence. Yet they're telling pilots not to go to the US cos they could be exploited? D!ckheads.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 06:46
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This isn't difficult to work out. AFAP is a founding member with AIPA of AusALPA which is the Australian member association of IFALPA. ALPA is the US and Canadian member association of IFALPA. ALPA are trying to improve their member’s terms and conditions. The current shortages are a once in a lifetime opportunity to greatly improve them but see E3's are seen as a threat to their master plan. Solution? Use your affiliated associations to try and slow the applicants for E3’s.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 06:56
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I'm sure this was discussed by "our" reps at the Singapore junket from a few weeks ago as certainly nothing else seems to be sent to the members about that expenditure of funds.

the greatest impediment to getting more E3s over in the US right now seems to be embassy/consulate capacity rather than anything the union is getting up to
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 15:13
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Originally Posted by 404 Titan
This isn't difficult to work out. AFAP is a founding member with AIPA of AusALPA which is the Australian member association of IFALPA. ALPA is the US and Canadian member association of IFALPA. ALPA are trying to improve their memberís terms and conditions. The current shortages are a once in a lifetime opportunity to greatly improve them but see E3's are seen as a threat to their master plan. Solution? Use your affiliated associations to try and slow the applicants for E3ís.
Titan, normally I'd agree with you wholeheartedly but the shortfall in the number of pilots needed at both the US majors and more so, the regionals, still far exceeds the number of E3's. You could hire 500 E3's tomorrow and it wouldn't come close to the number needed for all the US airlines to get through their summer schedules. United is getting a 73 every three days for the next year and I'm not sure how they're going to be able to staff just them.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 16:44
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Originally Posted by Kenny
...but the shortfall in the number of pilots needed at both the US majors and more so, the regionals, still far exceeds the number of E3's. You could hire 500 E3's tomorrow and it wouldn't come close to the number needed for all the US airlines to get through their summer schedules.
Kenny,

I tend to agree with you on this. In light of projected pilot requirements, I just don't see how a comparative handful of E3s changes the trajectory of pilot labor-market influence here. And those E3s will likely come to a unionized carrier where they will be able to vote for improvements to Ts & Cs just like their US counterparts and not water down pilot response to labor events.

As for filling all those projected pilots slots, one thing the airlines could do is get rid of the ridiculous HR kabuki dance that passes for pilot selection (they undoubtedly lose some pretty good prospects in the process): a meet-the-chief event...to see if you can get the invitation to take some nut-so online cog test with personality profile...to see if you can then get a face-to-face interview. And then if unsuccessful, you get to try again in some number of months. If hired then, they will be hiring the EXACT same person they turned down all those months earlier...it can't be otherwise except that they cost that new hire hundreds of seniority numbers by playing their silly game. Don't get me started...rant over. Sorry for the thread drift.

[and that's not sour grapes...my son flies for a legacy and I did 30+ years at one. I just know silly when I see it.]

Last edited by bafanguy; 9th Jun 2022 at 17:03.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 17:25
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Kenny

Yes and no. Australia certainly can't supply all the pilots the US needs which I've heard various figures but the average is about 12K. Canada is another place I believe the US is granting E3 for pilots as well. There are much bigger plans afoot in the US to granting E3's from many more countries. It is in that context ALPA in the US is trying to limit foreign pilots. They are also trying to stop Federal politicians from watering down the 1500 hour rule too. The FAA is also considering raising the retirement age. There are lots of moving parts to this and AFAP getting involved is just a very small part of it.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 18:48
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404 Titan,

Would you have a link to info about Canadians getting E3 visas ?

Found this about Canadians and a TN visa. First I've heard of it:

A cursory look at the list of eligible occupations on this website doesn't show pilot as one:

https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...l-workers.html



https://www.aussierecruitsf.com/blog...nadian-tn-visa

Last edited by bafanguy; 9th Jun 2022 at 18:59.
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Old 9th Jun 2022, 19:00
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Originally Posted by 404 Titan
Kenny

Yes and no. Australia certainly can't supply all the pilots the US needs which I've heard various figures but the average is about 12K. Canada is another place I believe the US is granting E3 for pilots as well. There are much bigger plans afoot in the US to granting E3's from many more countries. It is in that context ALPA in the US is trying to limit foreign pilots. They are also trying to stop Federal politicians from watering down the 1500 hour rule too. The FAA is also considering raising the retirement age. There are lots of moving parts to this and AFAP getting involved is just a very small part of it.
Interesting that ALPA has played its cards close to its chest on this one, although I had no idea there were plans to open up the E3 to other nationalities. I know at the MEC level, there is huge resistance to E3's joining the Majors. Opening the E3 to other nationalities would cause an uproar from the locals and whether justified or not send them into a frenzy. As far as the retirement age is concerned, ALPA is supposedly against any increase. At least that is what we've been told by the MEC at my 14000 strong ALPA carrier.
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Old 10th Jun 2022, 00:00
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The E3 is a government thing, there are many Australians here doing all kinds of stuff. Canadians have been trying to get a similar visa since the dawn of time for a whole host or industries.

I don't believe that the E3 would open up in other countries just for pilots. It would have to go to every industry, and if this was the case (it's the first I'm hearing of it) it would require Congress to amend the law which allowed it in the first place.

I can see them doing it for a nationwide lack of qualified workers across every sector, but not just pilots, especially with alpa being the juggernaut it is.

​​​​​
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Old 10th Jun 2022, 00:01
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So here's the thing about E3s that I think pilots tend to lose sight of... E3s aren't just for pilots, but rather dozens of industries. So any change to the E3 treaty visa has impacts far beyond our rather narrow patch of turf. Because of this, I have two beliefs in general.

1. Alpa won't be terribly successful in stopping E3s, simply due to the amount of other industries a change in that treaty would impact. That is unless pilots are removed from the list of occupations that an E3 is applicable to.

2. Other nationalities will be unsuccessful at piggybacking off of the E3 treaty visa for the same reason. It impacts dozens more industries than just our own. The flip side is if other nationalities do piggyback on the 10500 E3s available each year, with dozens of other industries also fighting over those limited slots, it may actually reduce the amount of pilots coming over on E3s.

What I believe is a larger threat to our careers in the US, is if the pilot shortage gets to a point so severe that Congress allows a visa open to pilots of all nationalities in an attempt to maintain current flying capacity. Think similar to wholesale 457 visas destroying the local scene at home. This is something I wholeheartedly support Alpa in preventing.


Edit: Upsidedown beat me to the punch
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