MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
Perhaps QF has just run it's course, like Holden here in Oz it's time, time to get out as the trough has been emptied there's no more liquid gold for the ones that have drained these Co's & Co's now have to stand on their own two feet. The reasons behind these Co's going bad could fill a public library am sure but you can't fix the future or reinvent the wheel here amongst these pages.
Oz is in a bad way we have unemployment heading 2wards 6%, we have virtually no decent manufacturing industries left, we have a Govt system that is hugely inefficient & expensive with more snouts in the trough than any QF board meeting & finally an aviation system that's very rocky indeed, gentleman get yr affairs in order............now where have I heard that b4?
Just maybe it's over nothing is 4ever not even us................where's an ice age when ya need one !
Wmk2
Oz is in a bad way we have unemployment heading 2wards 6%, we have virtually no decent manufacturing industries left, we have a Govt system that is hugely inefficient & expensive with more snouts in the trough than any QF board meeting & finally an aviation system that's very rocky indeed, gentleman get yr affairs in order............now where have I heard that b4?
Just maybe it's over nothing is 4ever not even us................where's an ice age when ya need one !
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 12th Dec 2013 at 07:38. Reason: pore speeling, the speeling nazi's r comin':-)
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In my experience people only respond so aggressively (without addressing the question at hand) if the answer makes them uncomfortable.
Ever since Mr Hawke called airline pilots nothing more than bus drivers, we have seen this sort of mud stick & a constant erosion of the value of Australian airline pilots in the eyes of management & the general public. The consequence has been the consistent downward pressure on our T & C's. The most recent example of this sort of mud-slinging has been when QF was grounded. Now, every time you see a report on the losses QF is suffering, industrial action by the pilots is front & centre as one of the causes, if not, the main cause. All for wearing red ties & making PA's. But the gullible general public takes it as fact & pilots value & esteem goes down another notch. And with it, T & C's.
I have also seen data that shows the pilot's cost to be about 3% of the operating cost. Think about it in broad- brush terms if you like. Even if a 737-800 captain was earning $250,000 per year, that is only $278 per hour for the 900 flight hours he/she is available to the airline each year. If the F/O earns 60% of the captain's salary, the total flight crew cost per hour is $445, making about $592 total for a SYD - MEL flight. At about 170 seats, depending on configuration, that is a mere $3.48 per seat for the flight crew. HUGE - isn't it?
You sure don't see that figure bandied about in the press, do you? No! You see the annual salary, because that suits the requirements for the spin being peddled at the time.
It is a pity that the pilot unions have not learned that public perception IS important & that rather than maintaining a dignified silence, they need to fight fire with fire & answer every single one of the misleading press releases with the facts.
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Qantas and Holden also thrived in a small, easily pleased market without much competition. Times have changed and there are a now a host of other options for Aussie consumers when it comes to cars and international airline tickets. While I think the average Australian is sentimental about the 'great' Aussie icons, unfortunately that doesn't change the way they spend their dollars. Unless a local company is particularly savvy, offers a unique product and manages to lift themselves above the international competition they will suffer.
Qantas management haven't been able to do any of those things, and to make matters worse they eroded a hell of a lot of local support by grounding the fleet and incoveniencing thousands of customers.
IMO their actions handballed a whole lot of formerly loyal QF customers towards Virgin that wouldn't otherwise have tried their product. Having tried it they liked it, and kept on using it.
They may be doing their best, but if the mainstream press have an axe to grind then it won't make a difference. They are competing with a massively well funded Qantas spin machine with money and resources. Of course the lucrative Qantas newspaper and television advertising contracts have absolutely nothing to do with it; we've got a free press, haven't we? 
Qantas management haven't been able to do any of those things, and to make matters worse they eroded a hell of a lot of local support by grounding the fleet and incoveniencing thousands of customers.
IMO their actions handballed a whole lot of formerly loyal QF customers towards Virgin that wouldn't otherwise have tried their product. Having tried it they liked it, and kept on using it.
It is a pity that the pilot unions have not learned that public perception IS important & that rather than maintaining a dignified silence, they need to fight fire with fire & answer every single one of the misleading press releases with the facts.
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Tools down boys.......
Acute instinct... shaking my head... have you been breathing in too much beryllium dust in the machine shop mate?
Nah, I just smell sh!t. The tools have been mobilised on mass.....
Last edited by Acute Instinct; 12th Dec 2013 at 08:05.
Oakape needs to rethink his sums! His arithmetic is probably correct but he's omitted many factors from his equation such as Annual Leave, Long Service Leave, Superannuation, Payroll Tax, assorted allowances and other on-costs.
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Perhaps the reason Tartare got the reaction was because of his previous post #514
Its about the tone, invective, a large dose of Schadenfreude pre-determined judgement and ie what, and led by moronic unions that have no grasp of the fundamentals of business or economics. The asking for a genuine rational debate?
For a start your premise is based on a flaw - that there is one contract for pilots in mainline, there are not, there are two. A quarter of the pilots work on the shorthaul contract, which is the least restrictive in terms of work practices of the three awards: QF S/H, Jetstar & Virgin. QF S/H have the least number of days off per period, least restrictive rostering practices (example, 2 days off is 55 hours QF vs 60 for JQ, not sure about VB off the top of my head).
QF has a higher hourly rate of pay, however, there are ZERO penalty payments (working extra days or on available days) with the exception of minimum 4 hours for a reserve call-out, which in reality may provide a maximum of 1:05 unpaid work (OOL return out of SYD= 2:55 pay). The rostering agreement comprises less than a page (appendix D).
But hey, you don't need to take my word for it, its all available online, I will even give you the Links: QF VB JQ. Read them thoroughly and adsorb the "big picture". As you will see, there would be a very small difference between the three. QF S/H have the ability to be the most productive of the three group.
Further, VB do not operate to the CAO48E work practices. Less pilots are needed to do the same job through the greater flexibility, hence the higher hourly rate captures some of that productivity increase.
The fact that they aren't is not the pilots or unions fault - QF has all the tools & the most flexibility at its fingertips. I challenge you to find the restrictive work practices in the QF S/H agreement. Please give it your best shot, I am confident you won't find the smoking gun.
Oh, and John Borghetti at Virgin agrees:
And another one: Virgin says staff pay on par with Qantas
So, before you start generalising in a abrasive manner, ask for the facts. The truth is grey, not black and white and a lot more nuanced than your previous posts suggest. 25% of the QF pilots already work under the most flexible agreement possible (almost pure CAO48E).
I guess the facts don't suit your predetermined ideological biases.
Originally Posted by Tartare
In my earlier post I should have said `Australia New Zealand and the Pacific Forum' not this thread, which as someone else quite rightly pointed out has been going for less than a month.
Before diving into any thread about Qantas - you have to steel yourself for the whining.
The market will deal and is dealing with you guys - it's Darwinian.
The problem ain't the management or the Board.
Good on Joyce for grounding you - the little guy's got balls the size of watermelons.
Nope - he's not the problem.
The problem is the significant majority of the Qantas workforce that think they're entitled to a job no matter what, and led by moronic unions that have no grasp of the fundamentals of business or economics.
I suspect you're all going down, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Unless Abbott and co blink at the last minute and pull an Air NZ on you.
Personally, I'd leave you to the wolves.
And now I'll tell you what I really think...
Before diving into any thread about Qantas - you have to steel yourself for the whining.
The market will deal and is dealing with you guys - it's Darwinian.
The problem ain't the management or the Board.
Good on Joyce for grounding you - the little guy's got balls the size of watermelons.
Nope - he's not the problem.
The problem is the significant majority of the Qantas workforce that think they're entitled to a job no matter what, and led by moronic unions that have no grasp of the fundamentals of business or economics.
I suspect you're all going down, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Unless Abbott and co blink at the last minute and pull an Air NZ on you.
Personally, I'd leave you to the wolves.
And now I'll tell you what I really think...
For a start your premise is based on a flaw - that there is one contract for pilots in mainline, there are not, there are two. A quarter of the pilots work on the shorthaul contract, which is the least restrictive in terms of work practices of the three awards: QF S/H, Jetstar & Virgin. QF S/H have the least number of days off per period, least restrictive rostering practices (example, 2 days off is 55 hours QF vs 60 for JQ, not sure about VB off the top of my head).
QF has a higher hourly rate of pay, however, there are ZERO penalty payments (working extra days or on available days) with the exception of minimum 4 hours for a reserve call-out, which in reality may provide a maximum of 1:05 unpaid work (OOL return out of SYD= 2:55 pay). The rostering agreement comprises less than a page (appendix D).
But hey, you don't need to take my word for it, its all available online, I will even give you the Links: QF VB JQ. Read them thoroughly and adsorb the "big picture". As you will see, there would be a very small difference between the three. QF S/H have the ability to be the most productive of the three group.
Further, VB do not operate to the CAO48E work practices. Less pilots are needed to do the same job through the greater flexibility, hence the higher hourly rate captures some of that productivity increase.
The fact that they aren't is not the pilots or unions fault - QF has all the tools & the most flexibility at its fingertips. I challenge you to find the restrictive work practices in the QF S/H agreement. Please give it your best shot, I am confident you won't find the smoking gun.
Oh, and John Borghetti at Virgin agrees:
We pay enough says Virgin Australia CEO
November 02, 2011 5:06PM
VIRGIN Australia chief executive John Borghetti has rejected claims the airline's pilots, engineers and ground crew are paid substantially less than those at Qantas Airways.
November 02, 2011 5:06PM
VIRGIN Australia chief executive John Borghetti has rejected claims the airline's pilots, engineers and ground crew are paid substantially less than those at Qantas Airways.
Mr Borghetti says there is a 5per cent difference between the salary of a Boeing 737 pilot flying a Virgin Australia aircraft and a pilot flying the same aircraft for Qantas.
I guess the facts don't suit your predetermined ideological biases.
short flights long nights
Is it all sort of connected? Because we don't make things anymore, the whole 'chain' is falling apart? And is it because companies are now run by people who don't care about the company, it's history or its people, just how to swill in the trough for a few years and then leave the resulting carnage behind them?
As a kid, my mum was a secretary for a company that made plastic bags. The company still exists, but the bags are made in China now. Next to the Mums plastic bag factory, used to be a factory making Kelvinator fridges and washine machines. They bought plastic off Mums place to wrap the appliances in before delivery.
Dad was a manager for a large steel manufacture. He started there at 16 and worked his way up to State Manager. The concept of swilling in the trough would have been completely alien to him. He looked after the Company, the Compnay looked after him, that's how it works, isn't it, he would have said. The company provided most people with a car. You could have any car you liked, as long as it was a Holden, or in those days a Valient. (For some reason Ford only got a look in when Chrysler left Australia)
I still remember him taking me down to the factory one morning when I was about 13. It was a proud day for him. The company had just finished making, what was then, the largest single span steel girde ever manufactured in Australia. I still remember Dad saying to me, that was the easy part, working out how to get it on to the trucks to get it on site, was the hard part. And that what he a bought me to see, the rolling out of the girder on the back of two ( I think) trucks. The logistics for the time were amazing, police, road closures, huge trucks.
The trucks were supplied by the transport company across the road from Dads factory.
I remember after they got it out the gate, a celebration was called, and everyone was given the rest of the day off.
The thing was, we were all interconnected, I made something that you needed, and you made something I needed. We hade pride in who we worked for, and did our best for them, because we knew those companies would do their best for us.
And then the walls came tumbling down. Free trade, no tariffs, first responsibility to shareholders, not employees, bonus culture....get in swill away and get out....want a peach? Forget Oz mate we will get em by the boat load from China.
Only trouble is, who is going to buy your peach? The Australian grower has no money, so he can't buy the new tractor that International Harvester made in Melbourne, so the tractor worker has no money to buy a new Holden, so the Holden worker has no money to go to Coles to buy the peach.
Is it better? I don't think so. Will it end in tears? I'm pretty sure it will. And this comes from some one who has voted right wing all his life.
I think it's time to close the doors. Go back to being an island. Unfloat (if that a word) the dollar, and start thinking about protecting ourselves. I know it probably all too simple and probably all too late.
Rant switch returning to off.
As a kid, my mum was a secretary for a company that made plastic bags. The company still exists, but the bags are made in China now. Next to the Mums plastic bag factory, used to be a factory making Kelvinator fridges and washine machines. They bought plastic off Mums place to wrap the appliances in before delivery.
Dad was a manager for a large steel manufacture. He started there at 16 and worked his way up to State Manager. The concept of swilling in the trough would have been completely alien to him. He looked after the Company, the Compnay looked after him, that's how it works, isn't it, he would have said. The company provided most people with a car. You could have any car you liked, as long as it was a Holden, or in those days a Valient. (For some reason Ford only got a look in when Chrysler left Australia)
I still remember him taking me down to the factory one morning when I was about 13. It was a proud day for him. The company had just finished making, what was then, the largest single span steel girde ever manufactured in Australia. I still remember Dad saying to me, that was the easy part, working out how to get it on to the trucks to get it on site, was the hard part. And that what he a bought me to see, the rolling out of the girder on the back of two ( I think) trucks. The logistics for the time were amazing, police, road closures, huge trucks.
The trucks were supplied by the transport company across the road from Dads factory.
I remember after they got it out the gate, a celebration was called, and everyone was given the rest of the day off.
The thing was, we were all interconnected, I made something that you needed, and you made something I needed. We hade pride in who we worked for, and did our best for them, because we knew those companies would do their best for us.
And then the walls came tumbling down. Free trade, no tariffs, first responsibility to shareholders, not employees, bonus culture....get in swill away and get out....want a peach? Forget Oz mate we will get em by the boat load from China.
Only trouble is, who is going to buy your peach? The Australian grower has no money, so he can't buy the new tractor that International Harvester made in Melbourne, so the tractor worker has no money to buy a new Holden, so the Holden worker has no money to go to Coles to buy the peach.
Is it better? I don't think so. Will it end in tears? I'm pretty sure it will. And this comes from some one who has voted right wing all his life.
I think it's time to close the doors. Go back to being an island. Unfloat (if that a word) the dollar, and start thinking about protecting ourselves. I know it probably all too simple and probably all too late.
Rant switch returning to off.
I think we have now discussed this on a level management would be happy with. 2 fleas arguing over which dog they are on. As professional airline workers we are not really against each other, nor anti one airline or another, but we are in a unique position to see stupidity in respective airlines' policies. Much like RAF/USAAF/Luftwaffe pilots were critical of policies but very respectful of each other in WWII. I am deeply hurt by what my airlines' management has been, as it shows total incompetence at every level. I personally abhor the cash that has been totally wasted on the inane Jet* experiment, but I wish no ill for the staff. I want this disgraceful Qantas management brought to task. My issues are entirely with people who have (IMHO) pushed legal boundaries to the very edge of custodial sentences. We are in a very unique position to comment sensibly on what 25yo management grads screw up on. It makes me sick that they are so stupid, but don't immediately take offence when someone pushes your individual buttons about incompetence from above - it's not their fault! Like the title of this post, there is a common enemy. Having managed a few businesses myself and I speak regularly with people who own their own company's, if you do not look after your staff before you look after yourself, you WILL fail. I am (again) very hurt that it is Qantas that is proving that in technicolor with gold highlights.
PS: I have had a nice red
PS: I have had a nice red
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Worth a read for some balanced perspectives.
Is Qantas and Australia?s aviation system in meltdown? No, but challenges are all around | CAPA - Centre for Aviation
Is Qantas and Australia?s aviation system in meltdown? No, but challenges are all around | CAPA - Centre for Aviation
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The thing was, we were all interconnected, I made something that you needed, and you made something I needed. We had pride in who we worked for, and did our best for them, because we knew those companies would do their best for us.
The academic question is who stopped caring first; the companies or the consumers. Tempus fugit...
I'm not a fan of foreign restrictions on QF. BUT. I put it to you that if everyone in Australia was as proud of Qantas as they were 20 years ago (because it was 'the best') then all a Menadue would have to do is ask the market for cash and it would have been there on very favourable terms.
That is the tragedy - QF is not 'the best' and that, my friends, is the entire problem. And whose fault is that?
Was it the fault of government of 15 years ago that the most incompetent, thieving group of pirates and charletans would get their hands on THE most famous national icon the country has produced? No one could foresee that anyone would deliberately act against the interests of something so cherished.
That is the tragedy - QF is not 'the best' and that, my friends, is the entire problem. And whose fault is that?
Was it the fault of government of 15 years ago that the most incompetent, thieving group of pirates and charletans would get their hands on THE most famous national icon the country has produced? No one could foresee that anyone would deliberately act against the interests of something so cherished.
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No one could foresee that anyone would deliberately act against the interests of something so cherished.
We speak of Australian icons. They are icons to us; brands that we grew up with and were proud of. The problem is that they were/are all commercial concerns; we iconifed merchants
. We elevated them to a place in our national identity that none of them ever deserved. Ask an Australian what is 'Australian' and often they will list a number of commercial brands, rather than ideas or real achievements. They'll talk about Qantas, Vegemite, Arnotts, Holden(GM) and Golden Circle, who at the end of the day were all nothing more than merchants selling a product that could be equalled or bettered by foreign imports. They sold BS and we bought it; for many decades it was a happy arrangement. Maybe the current Qantas MO is to debase the brand so far that when it flounders the average Australian no longer cares. Maybe they're trying to make us hate them; maybe that's all part of the plan.
Then, when they say 'Qantas is dead' they hope the public will all quietly agree (damned unions ) and the managers will each walk away with a big bag of cash from the Arabs and the tacit support of the mainstream media 
.If that's the case then we are nothing more than players in their great scheme to make the public hate Qantas and brush aside its passing with a collective shoulder shrug, while they grab the cash and comfortably retire. Maybe they don't want Qantas to be successful; maybe that's their worst nightmare.
Maybe IS their worst nightmare. They proved that 10 years ago.....
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Oakape, let me assure you, as a overpaid bus driver, in the Hawke era, there is a pact amongst us, those who have not fallen off their perches, will represent those who have, and we will all gather at the cemetery, where the Great One lies, and after drinking copious quantities of ale, we will settle our grudges once and for all. At the grave site. This is our solemn duty, to avenge and represent all overpaid bus drivers, and we will not let you down.
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UBS estimates that by the end of this financial year, Qantas will have injected $270 million of equity into the Asian ventures. Jetstar Japan and Hong Kong lost a combined $50 million last year and are not expected to be profitable for a few more years.
Nunc est bibendum
Following on from FYSTI's comments re the SH award.
Now let's look at the 767 flying domestically. I get paid 80 credit hours. Next month I fly 73 stick. A 737 driver gets a higher rate per hour than me but if they fly 73 stick, lo and behold they get the equivalent of my 80 hours. I also carry 20-25% more pax than a 737.
So if QF 737 drivers are more efficient than DJ 737 drivers then conversely that makes QF 767 drivers cheaper per ASK than DJ drivers. Perhaps when my super is taken into account we may end up being about the same.
I'm not going to buy into the A330, 744 and A380. I don't have current data on those and my view ain't that popular regarding the 4 engined fleets anyway!
Now let's look at the 767 flying domestically. I get paid 80 credit hours. Next month I fly 73 stick. A 737 driver gets a higher rate per hour than me but if they fly 73 stick, lo and behold they get the equivalent of my 80 hours. I also carry 20-25% more pax than a 737.
So if QF 737 drivers are more efficient than DJ 737 drivers then conversely that makes QF 767 drivers cheaper per ASK than DJ drivers. Perhaps when my super is taken into account we may end up being about the same.
I'm not going to buy into the A330, 744 and A380. I don't have current data on those and my view ain't that popular regarding the 4 engined fleets anyway!