MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
Qantas says strict foreign ownership rules are making it hard to compete with Virgin and there are a number of ways the Government could help it.
The way I see it is that this is all about shaming the feds into lifting or removing parts of QSA so that Dixon and the usual suspects can buy the lot and sell off assets. GM Holden just helped Alan in that cause.
I can't see many overseas entities "investing" in Qantas so it can once again become a great international airline.
I can only see them buying it at a bargain basement price, flogging the assets, sacking the staff and closing the doors so they can get it out of the picture.
It will be a swift demise and there will be a kick back to the CEO. We are fvcked if Abbott lets Joyce have his way.
I can only see them buying it at a bargain basement price, flogging the assets, sacking the staff and closing the doors so they can get it out of the picture.
It will be a swift demise and there will be a kick back to the CEO. We are fvcked if Abbott lets Joyce have his way.
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MBAs
Bob Lutz, former vice-chairman of GM said the MBA was almost the death of
The American auto industry. The article reads like a potted history of QF.
Why a Rise in M.B.A.s Coincided with the Fall of American Industry - TIME
The American auto industry. The article reads like a potted history of QF.
Why a Rise in M.B.A.s Coincided with the Fall of American Industry - TIME
Sprucegoose
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When men of vision ran companies, they grew and prospered!
It is sad to see the many great companies that have been ruined by accountants and bankers. I've said it many times before, anyone can cut costs, downsize and sell off assets. It takes considerably more skill to grow markets, create opportunities and heaven forbid, engage with your customers!
Sadly customers no longer exist, they are merely decimal places on a spread sheet, as are employees...
It is sad to see the many great companies that have been ruined by accountants and bankers. I've said it many times before, anyone can cut costs, downsize and sell off assets. It takes considerably more skill to grow markets, create opportunities and heaven forbid, engage with your customers!
Sadly customers no longer exist, they are merely decimal places on a spread sheet, as are employees...
Riiiiiiiiight.
We've sort of drifted off thread majorly here.
But anyhoo...
Most of the guys on my course were engineers.
There were people from the dairy industry.
There was a consul general's wife who's now back in Washington.
And - I love this - a few were from a certain nearby airline that you guys look at with envy that has turned itself around.
MBA = bad short termist balance sheet driven management?
No - not necessarily.
An MBA is simply a masters degree.
If the person gaining the degree is fundamentally commercially inept, it's not really going to change them - they can still screw up a business.
You know - we tried something really intriguing at NZ.
We took some of the most senior wide body guys, gave them all the input costs and a crash course in accounting and basic financial management.
We then asked them to balance the books... and most importantly... turn a profit.
Very chastening exercise for many of them... it is not easy at all.
Simply put - each long haul aircraft in an airline is in effect a small company.
You want above bank rate RoCE on an investment of a coupla hundred million at margins between 3 and 5 per cent.
The sums of money are eye watering, and if you fvck up any of the input costs, you're toast.
Oh, and by the way, I love aviation; everything about it.
Especially the science of aerodynamics, but also the people.
The Kelly Johnsons and John Boyds of this world are an inspiration.
I just don't make a living out of it anymore.
We've sort of drifted off thread majorly here.
But anyhoo...
Most of the guys on my course were engineers.
There were people from the dairy industry.
There was a consul general's wife who's now back in Washington.
And - I love this - a few were from a certain nearby airline that you guys look at with envy that has turned itself around.
MBA = bad short termist balance sheet driven management?
No - not necessarily.
An MBA is simply a masters degree.
If the person gaining the degree is fundamentally commercially inept, it's not really going to change them - they can still screw up a business.
You know - we tried something really intriguing at NZ.
We took some of the most senior wide body guys, gave them all the input costs and a crash course in accounting and basic financial management.
We then asked them to balance the books... and most importantly... turn a profit.
Very chastening exercise for many of them... it is not easy at all.
Simply put - each long haul aircraft in an airline is in effect a small company.
You want above bank rate RoCE on an investment of a coupla hundred million at margins between 3 and 5 per cent.
The sums of money are eye watering, and if you fvck up any of the input costs, you're toast.
Oh, and by the way, I love aviation; everything about it.
Especially the science of aerodynamics, but also the people.
The Kelly Johnsons and John Boyds of this world are an inspiration.
I just don't make a living out of it anymore.
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Tartare - nailed it:
Now, imagine starting not one, but four franchise LCC Airlines in four separate Asian jurisdictions with cashed up brutal incumbents.
I'm pretty sure any reputable MBA course would warn about the insanity of such a course of action.
Simply put - each long haul aircraft in an airline is in effect a small company.
You want above bank rate RoCE on an investment of a coupla hundred million at margins between 3 and 5 per cent.
The sums of money are eye watering, and if you fvck up any of the input costs, you're toast.
You want above bank rate RoCE on an investment of a coupla hundred million at margins between 3 and 5 per cent.
The sums of money are eye watering, and if you fvck up any of the input costs, you're toast.
I'm pretty sure any reputable MBA course would warn about the insanity of such a course of action.
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Tartare,
You make some good points but your obvious disdain (or perhaps insecurity) towards Qantas pilots tends to undermine those points.
p.s. Can we come back in the future and ask how your secure LNG job is going
after Asia has renegotiated the inflated (and industry handicapping) Australian
gas rates ($/mbtu) downwards and processing has been moved to floating LNG and your still working for a company that spent way too much building onshore LNG processing plants at the height of a resources boom?
You make some good points but your obvious disdain (or perhaps insecurity) towards Qantas pilots tends to undermine those points.
p.s. Can we come back in the future and ask how your secure LNG job is going
after Asia has renegotiated the inflated (and industry handicapping) Australian
gas rates ($/mbtu) downwards and processing has been moved to floating LNG and your still working for a company that spent way too much building onshore LNG processing plants at the height of a resources boom?
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And a photo from Toulouse that is costing someone some cash
Photos: Airbus A320-232 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Photos: Airbus A320-232 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
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Could it just possibly be that not all the fault is Alan's?
If we are to keep Qantas as the "International" face of Australia, how do the staff costs compare with comparable overseas airlines?
Could it be that when viewed against its competition, Qantas staff members are over paid?
Simple question
If we are to keep Qantas as the "International" face of Australia, how do the staff costs compare with comparable overseas airlines?
Could it be that when viewed against its competition, Qantas staff members are over paid?
Simple question
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Well lets go back 5 years shall we? Was the 1.2 billion dollar profit, slated mainly to QF International the fault of the staff?
2008 seems to be benchmark. Dixon perfectly timed but ultimately doomed bid to steal the Company ( doomed by someone else's greed... Oh the irony) meant he was on the outer and someone "with a vision for the company that blew the Board away" was on his way in.
Yes I know the GFC then happened.
But maybe a visionary would have known to keep investing in the cash generating product instead of trying to conquer Asia.
The visionary and the Board have failed miserably.
Mainline International is shrinking because when you CAN'T replace old aircraft because you blew the companies capital on failed Asian ventures the piper has to be paid.
Jetstar Asia.- never turned a real profit.
Jetstar Vietnam - why is it even still called Jetstar?
Jetstar Japan- bulk of the fleet gathering dust in Narita... Needed 60 mill just to make the payroll.
Jetstar Hong Kong. Anyone willing to take a bet on that master stroke?
Can we quit sidetracking the blame from the staff to the obvious culprits? Can the masters of the universe in this thread take their brandy snifters into the other room, because you are talking arrant garbage.
2008 seems to be benchmark. Dixon perfectly timed but ultimately doomed bid to steal the Company ( doomed by someone else's greed... Oh the irony) meant he was on the outer and someone "with a vision for the company that blew the Board away" was on his way in.
Yes I know the GFC then happened.
But maybe a visionary would have known to keep investing in the cash generating product instead of trying to conquer Asia.
The visionary and the Board have failed miserably.
Mainline International is shrinking because when you CAN'T replace old aircraft because you blew the companies capital on failed Asian ventures the piper has to be paid.
Jetstar Asia.- never turned a real profit.
Jetstar Vietnam - why is it even still called Jetstar?
Jetstar Japan- bulk of the fleet gathering dust in Narita... Needed 60 mill just to make the payroll.
Jetstar Hong Kong. Anyone willing to take a bet on that master stroke?
Can we quit sidetracking the blame from the staff to the obvious culprits? Can the masters of the universe in this thread take their brandy snifters into the other room, because you are talking arrant garbage.
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Capt Kremin
It is such a shame that members of this forum will not take part of the blame for the downfall of Qantas. Is it because they are receiving pay rates which are out of kilter with the industry worldwide?
The Australian car manufacturing industry is failing because Australian consumers are buying foreign products. If the quality and price of the Australian cars had been better, the car industry may not be withering.
Every airline buys it aircraft from one of two main manufacturers, and buys fuel at essentially the same price. The variables are your operating costs, and how much premium you can leverage out of your consumer. If your staff costs are too high, you will probably fail.
I merely asked a question. How do Qantas staff costs compare with their comparable overseas competition?
It is such a shame that members of this forum will not take part of the blame for the downfall of Qantas. Is it because they are receiving pay rates which are out of kilter with the industry worldwide?
The Australian car manufacturing industry is failing because Australian consumers are buying foreign products. If the quality and price of the Australian cars had been better, the car industry may not be withering.
Every airline buys it aircraft from one of two main manufacturers, and buys fuel at essentially the same price. The variables are your operating costs, and how much premium you can leverage out of your consumer. If your staff costs are too high, you will probably fail.
I merely asked a question. How do Qantas staff costs compare with their comparable overseas competition?
Ok, ill play.
If i (qf pilut) went to say, emirates, same rank, same aircraft as im doing now (15 years in qf) id be taking home more $$$.
Thats the simple angle from my hip pocket perspective but its a lot more complex than that. Which is kind of my point....
Just wait til the mighty AUD returns to its rightful place - and it will - the qf salaries will be looking pretty cheap. Again.
If i (qf pilut) went to say, emirates, same rank, same aircraft as im doing now (15 years in qf) id be taking home more $$$.
Thats the simple angle from my hip pocket perspective but its a lot more complex than that. Which is kind of my point....
Just wait til the mighty AUD returns to its rightful place - and it will - the qf salaries will be looking pretty cheap. Again.
Nikki,
I am a QF B767 FO. Were I to move to EK, EH, QR (these are where most Q pilots on LWOP have gone), I would be receiving more in the hand than I currently do. The money is on par with what QF A330 crews receieve. On top of my net pay, do not forget that QF must also pay payroll tax and my income tax comes out of this as well. The B744 and A380 crews earn more than that and I have always been a fan of fleet pay.
The problems Qantas are currently experiencing are multifaceted, but include an old inefficient fleet (other airlines can depreciate their fleet a lot faster - this is what I believe AJ should have been singing and dancing about for the last few weeks), outdated work practices (remember that LH tech crew have been 'determined' rather than negotiated and AIPA told the company that 'everything was on the table' in order to keep QF crews flying QF aircraft), staff : airframe oversupply (QF has come a long way since privatisation, but still has a long way to go to free itself of the public service mentality), some highly intense competition that doesn't need to make a profit (I do not include VA here) and finally an incompetent CEO and board who have a universally flawed strategy.
It is this last point that Qantas needs to fix with haste. Staff pay is an easy target for people here on PPrune because you'll always get someone to bite back but the reality is that crew wages are a relatively small component of costs. Reducing wages would provide a small saving, but in the grand scheme of things there are much bigger savings available elsewhere.
I do not believe that QF is in dire circumstances. I do believe, as do the vast majority of crew at speak with, that we can be more efficient, but that relies on both sides negotiating rather than stonewalling. QF are not the first company to flag a loss of this size, and certainly won't be the last. There are a lot of 'levers they can pull' to return to profitability, but posting a loss at this stage of the game certainly helps the propaganda war with Canberra.
I am a QF B767 FO. Were I to move to EK, EH, QR (these are where most Q pilots on LWOP have gone), I would be receiving more in the hand than I currently do. The money is on par with what QF A330 crews receieve. On top of my net pay, do not forget that QF must also pay payroll tax and my income tax comes out of this as well. The B744 and A380 crews earn more than that and I have always been a fan of fleet pay.
The problems Qantas are currently experiencing are multifaceted, but include an old inefficient fleet (other airlines can depreciate their fleet a lot faster - this is what I believe AJ should have been singing and dancing about for the last few weeks), outdated work practices (remember that LH tech crew have been 'determined' rather than negotiated and AIPA told the company that 'everything was on the table' in order to keep QF crews flying QF aircraft), staff : airframe oversupply (QF has come a long way since privatisation, but still has a long way to go to free itself of the public service mentality), some highly intense competition that doesn't need to make a profit (I do not include VA here) and finally an incompetent CEO and board who have a universally flawed strategy.
It is this last point that Qantas needs to fix with haste. Staff pay is an easy target for people here on PPrune because you'll always get someone to bite back but the reality is that crew wages are a relatively small component of costs. Reducing wages would provide a small saving, but in the grand scheme of things there are much bigger savings available elsewhere.
I do not believe that QF is in dire circumstances. I do believe, as do the vast majority of crew at speak with, that we can be more efficient, but that relies on both sides negotiating rather than stonewalling. QF are not the first company to flag a loss of this size, and certainly won't be the last. There are a lot of 'levers they can pull' to return to profitability, but posting a loss at this stage of the game certainly helps the propaganda war with Canberra.
Good on you one dot low.
A reasoned response.
Brodle - I don't have disdain for all QF pilots - not at all.
I do have disdain for the very bitter ones who continually moan.
We had them at NZ as well... often found flying Daddy's yacht - and the drivers on that fleet will know what I mean.
Oh, and we're not exposed to actually building the plants - we let others take that risk - but I can't tell you anymore, cos then you'd know who I work for...
A reasoned response.
Brodle - I don't have disdain for all QF pilots - not at all.
I do have disdain for the very bitter ones who continually moan.
We had them at NZ as well... often found flying Daddy's yacht - and the drivers on that fleet will know what I mean.
Oh, and we're not exposed to actually building the plants - we let others take that risk - but I can't tell you anymore, cos then you'd know who I work for...
Last edited by tartare; 14th Dec 2013 at 19:57.
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Nikki in Oz
Not necessarily overpaid but less productive than elsewhere.
Work overseas and you will see what productivity is there.More$$ but more hours.
Put international on the domestic award and instantly Qf won't be needing as many pilots.
Simple equation- hard to argue against but I'm sure someone will anyway
Not necessarily overpaid but less productive than elsewhere.
Work overseas and you will see what productivity is there.More$$ but more hours.
Put international on the domestic award and instantly Qf won't be needing as many pilots.
Simple equation- hard to argue against but I'm sure someone will anyway
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When you refer to "staff costs", I assume you mean across the board? Pilot salaries are pretty standard- just look at the going rates advertised (widely) internationally. If other airlines can get their other labour (check-in, bag-chuckers, cleaners, catering, back office etc. ) for $400-odd a month, how is QF to compete with that? Whilst driving down labour costs might be an ideal in some quarters- do people in Australia really want that, and all it entails? As far as QF goes- how do you level that playing field?