MERGED: Alan's still not happy......

[FYSTI]

Perhaps the reason Tartare got the reaction was because of his previous post #514

Originally Posted by Tartare

In my earlier post I should have said `Australia New Zealand and the Pacific Forum' not this thread, which as someone else quite rightly pointed out has been going for less than a month.
Before diving into any thread about Qantas - you have to steel yourself for the whining.
The market will deal and is dealing with you guys - it's Darwinian.
The problem ain't the management or the Board.
Good on Joyce for grounding you - the little guy's got balls the size of watermelons.
Nope - he's not the problem.
The problem is the significant majority of the Qantas workforce that think they're entitled to a job no matter what, and led by moronic unions that have no grasp of the fundamentals of business or economics.
I suspect you're all going down, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Unless Abbott and co blink at the last minute and pull an Air NZ on you.
Personally, I'd leave you to the wolves.
And now I'll tell you what I really think...

Its about the tone, invective, a large dose of Schadenfreude pre-determined judgement and ie what, and led by moronic unions that have no grasp of the fundamentals of business or economics. The asking for a genuine rational debate?


For a start your premise is based on a flaw - that there is one contract for pilots in mainline, there are not, there are two. A quarter of the pilots work on the shorthaul contract, which is the least restrictive in terms of work practices of the three awards: QF S/H, Jetstar & Virgin. QF S/H have the least number of days off per period, least restrictive rostering practices (example, 2 days off is 55 hours QF vs 60 for JQ, not sure about VB off the top of my head).


QF has a higher hourly rate of pay, however, there are ZERO penalty payments (working extra days or on available days) with the exception of minimum 4 hours for a reserve call-out, which in reality may provide a maximum of 1:05 unpaid work (OOL return out of SYD= 2:55 pay). The rostering agreement comprises less than a page (appendix D).

But hey, you don't need to take my word for it, its all available online, I will even give you the Links: QF VB JQ. Read them thoroughly and adsorb the "big picture". As you will see, there would be a very small difference between the three. QF S/H have the ability to be the most productive of the three group.
Further, VB do not operate to the CAO48E work practices. Less pilots are needed to do the same job through the greater flexibility, hence the higher hourly rate captures some of that productivity increase.

The fact that they aren't is not the pilots or unions fault - QF has all the tools & the most flexibility at its fingertips. I challenge you to find the restrictive work practices in the QF S/H agreement. Please give it your best shot, I am confident you won't find the smoking gun.

Oh, and John Borghetti at Virgin agrees:

We pay enough says Virgin Australia CEO
November 02, 2011 5:06PM
VIRGIN Australia chief executive John Borghetti has rejected claims the airline's pilots, engineers and ground crew are paid substantially less than those at Qantas Airways.

And another one: Virgin says staff pay on par with Qantas

Mr Borghetti says there is a 5per cent difference between the salary of a Boeing 737 pilot flying a Virgin Australia aircraft and a pilot flying the same aircraft for Qantas.

So, before you start generalising in a abrasive manner, ask for the facts. The truth is grey, not black and white and a lot more nuanced than your previous posts suggest. 25% of the QF pilots already work under the most flexible agreement possible (almost pure CAO48E).

I guess the facts don't suit your predetermined ideological biases.