MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
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Board vs management
It's the board's job to ensure that management has necessary things in place to run the business, so ideally there will be range of skills on the board that can identify weaknesses and add value through scrutiny and testing.
Usually the chairman and CEO are very much on the same page and mutually supportive. The apparent absence of Clifford would make me uncomfortable if I were AJ.
As to QSA etc, the Government can't have it both ways - either get rid of it and let the company do its own thing or provide the guarantee. Unfortunately the politics suggests that this has a way to play out.
Very much like the car industry, once the levers are set by Gov (eg, tariffs for cars seeing inports) landing slots etc given to everyone and anyone, the die is cast. And it was cast a long time ago and no one in the car industry or QF was prepared to look ahead to the inevitable conclusion. Now, massive realignment.
Usually the chairman and CEO are very much on the same page and mutually supportive. The apparent absence of Clifford would make me uncomfortable if I were AJ.
As to QSA etc, the Government can't have it both ways - either get rid of it and let the company do its own thing or provide the guarantee. Unfortunately the politics suggests that this has a way to play out.
Very much like the car industry, once the levers are set by Gov (eg, tariffs for cars seeing inports) landing slots etc given to everyone and anyone, the die is cast. And it was cast a long time ago and no one in the car industry or QF was prepared to look ahead to the inevitable conclusion. Now, massive realignment.
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Joyce petition
Hi all
This is website has a petition to sack Joyce. I never signed the QF one because it was about offshoring jobs not raising foreign capital.
Let's get behind it and give the QF media team another headache. The link appeared in an earlier page of this thread.
Let the little slime ball know he can't fool everyone.
Come on do it for Qantas
Cheers
Boeing Buster
http://www.change.org/en-AU/petition...-alan-joyce-2#
This is website has a petition to sack Joyce. I never signed the QF one because it was about offshoring jobs not raising foreign capital.
Let's get behind it and give the QF media team another headache. The link appeared in an earlier page of this thread.
Let the little slime ball know he can't fool everyone.
Come on do it for Qantas
Cheers
Boeing Buster
http://www.change.org/en-AU/petition...-alan-joyce-2#
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Joyce was hinting at opening up yet to expire EBA's and not only freezing pay rises but cutting pay. I am sure the majority of staff would partake in pay freezes/cuts but no way at the moment because he has not given the direction of the ship, it was rudderless prior to the announcement and now it has hit an iceberg and it adrift. People want to see a plan not just constant soundbites and thought bubbles which he has represented ever since he has been CEO.
I suspect he will go this year sometime and thats not just me being hopeful. He has announced the required deep cuts and the future planning fleet/direction will be handed to the next placeholder. He is universally disliked for his leadership/management and he takes the blood on his hands for the cuts and a new CEO starts afresh.....
I suspect he will go this year sometime and thats not just me being hopeful. He has announced the required deep cuts and the future planning fleet/direction will be handed to the next placeholder. He is universally disliked for his leadership/management and he takes the blood on his hands for the cuts and a new CEO starts afresh.....
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Love this comment in the Age in the article "How-much-longer-does-alan-joyce-need" ?
"Planes have a warning device built into them, telling the pilot to "pull up, pull up" when heading for trouble. The Qantas boardroom could do with one of those too"
Read more: How much longer does Alan Joyce need?
"Planes have a warning device built into them, telling the pilot to "pull up, pull up" when heading for trouble. The Qantas boardroom could do with one of those too"
Read more: How much longer does Alan Joyce need?
Bullsh
t. There are 31,996 who don't know their fate! Only 1,000 cuts have been identified and announced as coming from Avalon.
The other 4000 have been announced but no-one seems to know who they are. Each individual staff member has no idea yet whether he or she is in the firing line.
The only four who feel assured of their positions are Clifford (not strictly an employee), Strambi, Hickey and, of course, Joyce. These are the four who should be feeling most nervous but seem to be revelling in the trail of destruction left behind them.
Change management? My are. you don't treat good people like this - by announcing 5000 jobs to go but providing absolutely no detail leaving the staff and their families stressed and beleaguered for any longer than is absolutely necessary.
t. There are 31,996 who don't know their fate! Only 1,000 cuts have been identified and announced as coming from Avalon. The other 4000 have been announced but no-one seems to know who they are. Each individual staff member has no idea yet whether he or she is in the firing line.
The only four who feel assured of their positions are Clifford (not strictly an employee), Strambi, Hickey and, of course, Joyce. These are the four who should be feeling most nervous but seem to be revelling in the trail of destruction left behind them.
Change management? My ar
e. you don't treat good people like this - by announcing 5000 jobs to go but providing absolutely no detail leaving the staff and their families stressed and beleaguered for any longer than is absolutely necessary.
Yes Direct, the entire Board and Senior management have nothing but contempt for the Qantas workforce, that much is blindingly obvious.
They are maximising Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt in their own workforce. This is not a winning strategy - but it makes narcissists in managment feel very good, it's almost orgasmic for them when people fear them.
They are maximising Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt in their own workforce. This is not a winning strategy - but it makes narcissists in managment feel very good, it's almost orgasmic for them when people fear them.
What a nothing article
It's hardly surprising the market trashed the share price by 9% once it became all too apparent that yes, this Emperor really has no clothes.
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Please someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
The Australian dollar has dropped 15 percent against the US dollar in the last year, effectively giving Qantas a 15 percent drop in wages relative to overseas MROs. How do they then put their biggest ever loss down to overpaid workers. I would have expected to see this figure offsetting their fuel bill, leaving their profit stable.
Methinks the boards strategy is wholly to blame for their predicament. Alan and Leigh have to go. There are plenty of Australians who would love the opportunity to bring Qantas back to the great airline it once was. Give them a go and get rid of these leeches running the show at the moment.
The Australian dollar has dropped 15 percent against the US dollar in the last year, effectively giving Qantas a 15 percent drop in wages relative to overseas MROs. How do they then put their biggest ever loss down to overpaid workers. I would have expected to see this figure offsetting their fuel bill, leaving their profit stable.
Methinks the boards strategy is wholly to blame for their predicament. Alan and Leigh have to go. There are plenty of Australians who would love the opportunity to bring Qantas back to the great airline it once was. Give them a go and get rid of these leeches running the show at the moment.
Amazingly, these idiots blamed the lower Aussie dollar for part of their misery due to higher fuel costs. 6 months ago the high Aussie dollar was causing problems now the lower dollar - but at 90 cents still historically high - is causing problems. Do they think we are all stupid and have no memory of statements made six months ago? (Don't answer that, it was rhetorical, I know what these management tools really think of us all).
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Yay!! A petition to sign! Lets sign an online forum petition and all be good in this world.
You are kidding yourselves if you think this will be productive. But again the self entitlement over anything else has been evident within QF for eons.
You are kidding yourselves if you think this will be productive. But again the self entitlement over anything else has been evident within QF for eons.
Cargo744, Edmund Burke once said: ""The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.", There isn't much that many of us can do alone, but what we can do is try to be heard, to spread the word.
What the likes of Alan Joyce and his ilk spread is a virus, a disease, their words are designed to poison and weaken us to the point where we cannot see past them, something like this petition allows for people to spread the truth, to get it out there, like an anti-virus or vaccine, it allows people to build an immunity via truth.
Petitions, emails, this is how things like this spread, it's easy to say "Why bother, it won't do anything", it's a lot harder to instil some faith and allow yourself to hope that maybe by signing and getting others to sign it'll eventually spread to the right people and convince them to get up and do something. Each person who signs it and spreads it can get a few more, who get a few more, and a few more like tendrils, but people like yourself block it and hinder it.
1000 might not be many, 2000 still isn't a lot but if everyone signs it and shares it eventually they have to take notice, it emboldens people like Nick Xenophon to continue their causes and push harder and do the right thing!
Maybe I'm naive to a certain degree but sitting back and doing nothing will achieve precisely that, nothing.
What the likes of Alan Joyce and his ilk spread is a virus, a disease, their words are designed to poison and weaken us to the point where we cannot see past them, something like this petition allows for people to spread the truth, to get it out there, like an anti-virus or vaccine, it allows people to build an immunity via truth.
Petitions, emails, this is how things like this spread, it's easy to say "Why bother, it won't do anything", it's a lot harder to instil some faith and allow yourself to hope that maybe by signing and getting others to sign it'll eventually spread to the right people and convince them to get up and do something. Each person who signs it and spreads it can get a few more, who get a few more, and a few more like tendrils, but people like yourself block it and hinder it.
1000 might not be many, 2000 still isn't a lot but if everyone signs it and shares it eventually they have to take notice, it emboldens people like Nick Xenophon to continue their causes and push harder and do the right thing!
Maybe I'm naive to a certain degree but sitting back and doing nothing will achieve precisely that, nothing.
In the absence of doing nothing I would say sign a petition. However it will be seen as left wing, pinko kumbaya stuff.
If everyone rang radio stations, wrote online, emailed journos directly then I think it would make more impact.
I spent a few hours putting together a brief for 730. I gave them heaps and the result was a whitewash. I started talking about it 3 years ago to the same journo so he knows the background. There is not enough traction out there to get the story told.
I am learning a technique to deal with people who know nothing about aviation. I am now thinking that with a hostile audience you start with 'Look, I could talk for hours, how about you ask me something you want to know from the horses mouth'. Answer them directly, do not lie and if possible bring in points you want to make - like 'well I accept that but..' $1m per month storage fees in Toulouse etc etc.
I spoke with Chris Smith on 2gb (Sydney) a few days ago and though I only covered a few topics in 3 minutes I have to say he gave me a very very fair go. And actually agreed with me. I rang him the day of the lockout (I had just landed after a very long HKG LHR trip and was in shock) but I was cut off because I disagreed with BGA taking a stance against the evil unions. It is progress, but it needs more people. I email Andrew Bolt (who on most things I agree with) regularly and initially got a response, but not recently. I was apoplectic listening to him one time and rang, but it didn't last long. However, I'm plugging away. I can't match Chairman's Lounge access or media buying power but I am trying my best. I have an understanding of social media and have used it to help businesses I've had association with and it's not perfect, but numbers really help. I would urge everyone to try.
If everyone rang radio stations, wrote online, emailed journos directly then I think it would make more impact.
I spent a few hours putting together a brief for 730. I gave them heaps and the result was a whitewash. I started talking about it 3 years ago to the same journo so he knows the background. There is not enough traction out there to get the story told.
I am learning a technique to deal with people who know nothing about aviation. I am now thinking that with a hostile audience you start with 'Look, I could talk for hours, how about you ask me something you want to know from the horses mouth'. Answer them directly, do not lie and if possible bring in points you want to make - like 'well I accept that but..' $1m per month storage fees in Toulouse etc etc.
I spoke with Chris Smith on 2gb (Sydney) a few days ago and though I only covered a few topics in 3 minutes I have to say he gave me a very very fair go. And actually agreed with me. I rang him the day of the lockout (I had just landed after a very long HKG LHR trip and was in shock) but I was cut off because I disagreed with BGA taking a stance against the evil unions. It is progress, but it needs more people. I email Andrew Bolt (who on most things I agree with) regularly and initially got a response, but not recently. I was apoplectic listening to him one time and rang, but it didn't last long. However, I'm plugging away. I can't match Chairman's Lounge access or media buying power but I am trying my best. I have an understanding of social media and have used it to help businesses I've had association with and it's not perfect, but numbers really help. I would urge everyone to try.
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Received a memo from the regionals deputy CP stating that CASA will be doing increased rounds of surveillance as a direct result of the job loss announcement. If this is true, better pucker up kids!
Has anyone else from other business units received similar word/warning?
Fuel-Off
Has anyone else from other business units received similar word/warning?
Fuel-Off
I rang Sen Xen about 'issues' I was aware of through friend about this, that are outrageous IMHO (MEL engineers my heart goes out to you specifically but I know there are others) and was informed he had made 'very firm' representations to CASA about the same concerns.
I related (with many thanks) to his secretary what I had heard and was told he was already doing his best.
This is NOT about getting at the employee, but the truly appalling conditions many are asked to work under with a noose around their necks.
I apologised for not being able to vote for him.
I related (with many thanks) to his secretary what I had heard and was told he was already doing his best.
This is NOT about getting at the employee, but the truly appalling conditions many are asked to work under with a noose around their necks.
I apologised for not being able to vote for him.
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For Gaunty....
THE WORKING POOR Working poor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The working poor are working people whose incomes fall below a given poverty line. Depending on how one defines "working" and "poverty," someone may or may not be counted as part of the working poor.
For example, discussions in the United States about defining working poverty often fall on different sides based mainly on the two-party distinction. In nations with multiple parties, the discussions may be more refined, but a variety of opinions exist how the working poor compare to the nonworking poor.
While poverty is often associated with joblessness, a significant proportion of the poor in the US and Canada, but also Italy, Spain, and Ireland are actually employed.[1][2]
The wages the working poor receive are insufficient to provide basic necessities and lead to people making choices between having food on the table or having a table.[3]
Largely because they are earning such low wages, the working poor face numerous obstacles that make it difficult for many of them to find and keep a job, save up money, and maintain a sense of self-worth.[4]
The working poor are working people whose incomes fall below a given poverty line. Depending on how one defines "working" and "poverty," someone may or may not be counted as part of the working poor.
For example, discussions in the United States about defining working poverty often fall on different sides based mainly on the two-party distinction. In nations with multiple parties, the discussions may be more refined, but a variety of opinions exist how the working poor compare to the nonworking poor.
While poverty is often associated with joblessness, a significant proportion of the poor in the US and Canada, but also Italy, Spain, and Ireland are actually employed.[1][2]
The wages the working poor receive are insufficient to provide basic necessities and lead to people making choices between having food on the table or having a table.[3]
Largely because they are earning such low wages, the working poor face numerous obstacles that make it difficult for many of them to find and keep a job, save up money, and maintain a sense of self-worth.[4]
Don Quixote Impersonator
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For Lookin Down
A bit confused, which at my age is not unusual.
I have nearly 50 years in this business and been an owner/principal or self employed for the entire period.
So I do indeed understand the working poor.
It is a not negotiable rule in the family and our businesses that staff get paid first and we work with what is left, sometimes not much.
In the meantime I have been able to scrabble a reasonable lifestyle and put 3 children through private schools and university. FWIW 7 degrees between them.
No rights, no entitlements, no union just reality central.
As a yoof I declined a Qantas cadet ship and self sponsored my licenses all the way to ATPL including turbine ratings.
So from what I see of the Qantas pay scales from "A" scale on and what I had to pay my own corporate pilots, as a businessman it is as simple as ABC, the QF pilot labour costs and staffing levels, and they are labour costs, simply can't be sustained at their present levels. The Australian LAMES IMHO are worth every dollar.
Doesn't mean working poor, but anything north of $250k needs substantiation.
I am deaf to the argument about more experience needs more money. Might have worked 30 years ago but not now. In any case where are they going to go anyway. I suspect QF top pay scales are probably the highest in the world. Why?
I know for a fact that paying anybody over the odds does not increase skill levels or safety.
No doubt, Joyce has a lot to answer for, but so have the pilots and probably LAME unions.
The airline is on the edge of an abyss. If it goes over which right now is moot, no one wins. And apart from fond memories in 12 months they will be a poignant memory of times past, like PAN AM and many others.
Removing Joyce may make everyone feel a bit better, but it is going to take more than that to fix it.
I simply made the point that a voluntary administration spreads the pain equally between the owners and staff and provides an opportunity to reset the business and go forward from there. The alternative is you are all on the labour market with an entirely different set of rules.
Clearly travelers aren't buying or paying more for the worlds safest airline routine, so where to from here.
I am as disappointed as anybody, but neither do I support the current version from a passenger viewpoint preferring the respect and service I get elsewhere.
I suggest you google the Borghetti presser today, he should be running QF but he's not, and he and Virgin are eating Qantas lunch.
So your point is?
I have nearly 50 years in this business and been an owner/principal or self employed for the entire period.
So I do indeed understand the working poor.
It is a not negotiable rule in the family and our businesses that staff get paid first and we work with what is left, sometimes not much.
In the meantime I have been able to scrabble a reasonable lifestyle and put 3 children through private schools and university. FWIW 7 degrees between them.
No rights, no entitlements, no union just reality central.
As a yoof I declined a Qantas cadet ship and self sponsored my licenses all the way to ATPL including turbine ratings.
So from what I see of the Qantas pay scales from "A" scale on and what I had to pay my own corporate pilots, as a businessman it is as simple as ABC, the QF pilot labour costs and staffing levels, and they are labour costs, simply can't be sustained at their present levels. The Australian LAMES IMHO are worth every dollar.
Doesn't mean working poor, but anything north of $250k needs substantiation.
I am deaf to the argument about more experience needs more money. Might have worked 30 years ago but not now. In any case where are they going to go anyway. I suspect QF top pay scales are probably the highest in the world. Why?
I know for a fact that paying anybody over the odds does not increase skill levels or safety.
No doubt, Joyce has a lot to answer for, but so have the pilots and probably LAME unions.
The airline is on the edge of an abyss. If it goes over which right now is moot, no one wins. And apart from fond memories in 12 months they will be a poignant memory of times past, like PAN AM and many others.
Removing Joyce may make everyone feel a bit better, but it is going to take more than that to fix it.
I simply made the point that a voluntary administration spreads the pain equally between the owners and staff and provides an opportunity to reset the business and go forward from there. The alternative is you are all on the labour market with an entirely different set of rules.
Clearly travelers aren't buying or paying more for the worlds safest airline routine, so where to from here.
I am as disappointed as anybody, but neither do I support the current version from a passenger viewpoint preferring the respect and service I get elsewhere.
I suggest you google the Borghetti presser today, he should be running QF but he's not, and he and Virgin are eating Qantas lunch.
So your point is?