Merged: Proposed QF Group Pilot Seniority
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Latest from News.com:
OK, well if our concerns about "job security are unfounded" then easy fix - write a clause in the EBA giving the job security asked for. There's no risk right?
Classic!
PILOT JOBS NOT AT RISK - QANTAS
QANTAS has rejected claims that the jobs of its pilots are under threat, after a union threatened strike action.
Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) president Barry Jackson today said a meeting with airline management had failed to resolve key issues, including fears about the offshoring of jobs.
But Qantas said pilot concerns about job security were unfounded and warned that any industrial action would hurt its business and passengers.
"Qantas has not made a pilot redundant in almost 40 years and there is no threat to the job security of our pilots," it said in a statement.
The strike threat comes amid ongoing negotiations between pilots and Qantas management over a new enterprise bargaining agreement (EBA) for international pilots.
.."The threat of industrial action is part of the unions posturing to get increased wages and conditions for international pilots as part of the EBA negotiations and to limit the ability of Qantas group to compete with other airlines," the airline said.
AIPA members will meet in Sydney tomorrow and in Melbourne on Monday and the union says it is ready to take industrial action in pursuit of its claims.
"All our claims are based around job security and career progression, tying ourselves with the Qantas brand," Mr Jackson.
QANTAS has rejected claims that the jobs of its pilots are under threat, after a union threatened strike action.
Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) president Barry Jackson today said a meeting with airline management had failed to resolve key issues, including fears about the offshoring of jobs.
But Qantas said pilot concerns about job security were unfounded and warned that any industrial action would hurt its business and passengers.
"Qantas has not made a pilot redundant in almost 40 years and there is no threat to the job security of our pilots," it said in a statement.
The strike threat comes amid ongoing negotiations between pilots and Qantas management over a new enterprise bargaining agreement (EBA) for international pilots.
.."The threat of industrial action is part of the unions posturing to get increased wages and conditions for international pilots as part of the EBA negotiations and to limit the ability of Qantas group to compete with other airlines," the airline said.
AIPA members will meet in Sydney tomorrow and in Melbourne on Monday and the union says it is ready to take industrial action in pursuit of its claims.
"All our claims are based around job security and career progression, tying ourselves with the Qantas brand," Mr Jackson.
Wirthless PR
Nunc est bibendum
Really? Jobs aren't under threat? Less than two years ago Qantas pilots were told to make $8 million worth of savings or pilots would be made redundant. Many pilots worked reduced hours to save the jobs and ensure no colleague would be made redundant. Shortly thereafter Geoff Dixon (who wasn't CEO at the time) was 'gifted' $10 million due to changing tax rules in the previous financial year.
If there is no threat to pilots jobs, why are Captains and First Officers being told that demotions are 'on the table' later this year when assigned leave runs out?
If there is no threat to pilot jobs, why won't Qantas give a written undertaking that Qantas pilots will fly the 787 when it arrives?
Already Qantas pilots have seen Tasman flying given to a company called Jetconnect who fly Qantas aeroplanes on routes formerly flown by Qantas pilots, using crew wearing Qantas uniforms who are NOT Qantas pilots. Already Qantas pilots have seen many routes formally operated by Qantas aircraft and crew 'gifted' to Jetstar.
Qantas pilots jobs are at risk. They'll be replaced by the cheapest possible option. Anyone with two arms, two legs and a pilot license will be who they are after.
If there is no threat to pilots jobs, why are Captains and First Officers being told that demotions are 'on the table' later this year when assigned leave runs out?
If there is no threat to pilot jobs, why won't Qantas give a written undertaking that Qantas pilots will fly the 787 when it arrives?
Already Qantas pilots have seen Tasman flying given to a company called Jetconnect who fly Qantas aeroplanes on routes formerly flown by Qantas pilots, using crew wearing Qantas uniforms who are NOT Qantas pilots. Already Qantas pilots have seen many routes formally operated by Qantas aircraft and crew 'gifted' to Jetstar.
Qantas pilots jobs are at risk. They'll be replaced by the cheapest possible option. Anyone with two arms, two legs and a pilot license will be who they are after.
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In 2007 Qantas reported a record Profit before tax of $1,032 million. (Worlds most profitable airline at the time). Then Fuel Soared, WFC, Failed Private Equity Takeover, Price fixing fines, A380 and other incidents so that by 2011 a profit of less than 200mill is all that can be extracted out of a business that seems to want to destroy itself by internally ripping itself apart. Jet-star being initially setup to stop the perceived erosion by management of their turf by Low Cost Virgin and later Tiger. Now This threat has been effectively capped. And now in a totally logic defining
move this same subsidiary is turning and canibalizing it's own parent whilst those responsable for this mad turn of events have the audacity to declare that they do this in order to become more competitive in an unfair airline world?
. Or as Mr Joyce recently put it "Innovating'..Should the title to this story read "How to Turn a Very profitable Business into a Potentially less profitable one?" Or perhaps "How The Blond Lead The Blind?"
The old saying "You get what you put in" fits this case like a rug. Emirates, Ethiad, Qatar have simply gotten what they have invested in. More routes, better and newer planes and to my mind superior service which logically leads one to conclude that passengers have voted with their wallets taking their bums elsewhere. Still those at the helm claim this is due to those airlines operating in an unfair level playing field...Perhaps they should be reminded that if it wasn't for the QF Frequent traveler program monopoly of corporate travel and the Government's nearly obligatory awarding them the majority of their corporate account (Protectionism ring a bell anyone?) then Qantas would have disappeared long time ago..
The only thing that can save Qantas now is real leadership, lots of money to invest, a rethink of the two (Three, four or five?) brand strategy, a radical change in the short to medium fleet acquisition program and most importantly a re-energized and engaged work force....And why not add a sprinkle of luck as well?
I hope shareholders (whom also share in the blame) finally realize that if they continue to support a management team as deluded as this they will in the not to distant future be lead to a point at which their money is invested in a company so small as to be irrelevant in a global aviation environment, leading to the impossibility of ever achieving record profits of the likes of 2007 (Unless of course you can achieve profits by striping even more from the people that make it happen...Staff)..After all it doesn't take a genius to work out that the serious money is at the front end of the plane and not at the back end charging $10 for an isle seat to ordinary folk.
How sad to think that in less than a decade one of the most admired, prestigious and recognized global brands can potentially be turned into nothing more than a regular flying service.
My two cents worth anyway
Cheers
move this same subsidiary is turning and canibalizing it's own parent whilst those responsable for this mad turn of events have the audacity to declare that they do this in order to become more competitive in an unfair airline world?. Or as Mr Joyce recently put it "Innovating'..Should the title to this story read "How to Turn a Very profitable Business into a Potentially less profitable one?" Or perhaps "How The Blond Lead The Blind?"The old saying "You get what you put in" fits this case like a rug. Emirates, Ethiad, Qatar have simply gotten what they have invested in. More routes, better and newer planes and to my mind superior service which logically leads one to conclude that passengers have voted with their wallets taking their bums elsewhere. Still those at the helm claim this is due to those airlines operating in an unfair level playing field...Perhaps they should be reminded that if it wasn't for the QF Frequent traveler program monopoly of corporate travel and the Government's nearly obligatory awarding them the majority of their corporate account (Protectionism ring a bell anyone?) then Qantas would have disappeared long time ago..
The only thing that can save Qantas now is real leadership, lots of money to invest, a rethink of the two (Three, four or five?) brand strategy, a radical change in the short to medium fleet acquisition program and most importantly a re-energized and engaged work force....And why not add a sprinkle of luck as well?
I hope shareholders (whom also share in the blame) finally realize that if they continue to support a management team as deluded as this they will in the not to distant future be lead to a point at which their money is invested in a company so small as to be irrelevant in a global aviation environment, leading to the impossibility of ever achieving record profits of the likes of 2007 (Unless of course you can achieve profits by striping even more from the people that make it happen...Staff
)..After all it doesn't take a genius to work out that the serious money is at the front end of the plane and not at the back end charging $10 for an isle seat to ordinary folk.How sad to think that in less than a decade one of the most admired, prestigious and recognized global brands can potentially be turned into nothing more than a regular flying service.
My two cents worth anyway
Cheers
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You guys have got to take a stand on this one as it has a horrible stench about it.
Surely some advertising great can run a whole media campaign on
Does $8m=$10m
It does at the rat.
How many pilots does it take to support a Rat CEO....the lot.
Endless options with this one I would have thought and all will be well and truly understood by the travelling public because they can comprehend GREED.
Maybe you could even add in the shadows of some old HIH Executives.
Surely some advertising great can run a whole media campaign on
Does $8m=$10m
It does at the rat.
How many pilots does it take to support a Rat CEO....the lot.
Endless options with this one I would have thought and all will be well and truly understood by the travelling public because they can comprehend GREED.
Maybe you could even add in the shadows of some old HIH Executives.
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Are you guys in Jetstar feeling secure? I probably wouldn't if I were you. From the Manila Standard (and taken from another BB - regards to the poster on that BB):
This is like a plague. Unless we stand together now, we are all stuffed. Not just pilots; I'm talking engineers, F/A's, ground staff. Everyone.
Jestar to transfer 400 airline jobs to PH
by Jeremiah F. de Guzman
Australian budget carrier Jetstar Airways will transfer over 400 airline jobs to the Philippines and plans to launch flights to popular local tourist spots such as Boracay and Cebu.
“The Philippines is a strong Asian market. Traffic is high due to Filipino workers outside the country,” Jetstar Group chief executive Bruce Buchanan told reporters in an interview Wednesday.
“We are always up for more space in the market place, maybe 5 to 10 percent. We are always looking for opportunities to boot up network presence in the market,” he said. “We are growing in excess of 200 percent in revenues from [flights originating in] the Philippines for the last 12 months. A sign of how popular the services are,” Buchanan said.
He said the government’s plan to endorse an open skies policy and efforts to privatize airports drove the carrier to expand its operations in the country.
“I think that is going to be very beneficial to the tourism in the Philippines and for the whole economy. As the market liberalizes, more competition will come in the marketplace,” Buchanan said.
He said Jetstar was considering flights to airports outside Manila, specially Caticlan Airport in Aklan and Mactan Airport in Cebu.
“Most are very excited about Caticlan because part of the airport is being upgraded to be of full service in the next few years. Cebu is also quite attractive due to a number of tourist destinations in the area,” Buchanan said. “We are very positive and supportive on government’s deregulation and privatization plans.”
Meanwhile, Buchanan said over 400 airline jobs would be brought to the Philippines, consisting mainly of call center and technical tasks from Australia.
by Jeremiah F. de Guzman
Australian budget carrier Jetstar Airways will transfer over 400 airline jobs to the Philippines and plans to launch flights to popular local tourist spots such as Boracay and Cebu.
“The Philippines is a strong Asian market. Traffic is high due to Filipino workers outside the country,” Jetstar Group chief executive Bruce Buchanan told reporters in an interview Wednesday.
“We are always up for more space in the market place, maybe 5 to 10 percent. We are always looking for opportunities to boot up network presence in the market,” he said. “We are growing in excess of 200 percent in revenues from [flights originating in] the Philippines for the last 12 months. A sign of how popular the services are,” Buchanan said.
He said the government’s plan to endorse an open skies policy and efforts to privatize airports drove the carrier to expand its operations in the country.
“I think that is going to be very beneficial to the tourism in the Philippines and for the whole economy. As the market liberalizes, more competition will come in the marketplace,” Buchanan said.
He said Jetstar was considering flights to airports outside Manila, specially Caticlan Airport in Aklan and Mactan Airport in Cebu.
“Most are very excited about Caticlan because part of the airport is being upgraded to be of full service in the next few years. Cebu is also quite attractive due to a number of tourist destinations in the area,” Buchanan said. “We are very positive and supportive on government’s deregulation and privatization plans.”
Meanwhile, Buchanan said over 400 airline jobs would be brought to the Philippines, consisting mainly of call center and technical tasks from Australia.
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why are Captains and First Officers being told that demotions are 'on the table' later this year when assigned leave runs out?
Thats correct, Qantas pilots have been sitting at home for the last 5 years, all the while j* has been employing new pilots, and then Qantas claim that longhaul pilots are not competitive.
Qantas have seriously under estimated the resolve of the mainline pilots. When you strangle promotion, threaten demotion all while employing pilots, gifting routes & aeroplanes to your "internal competitor" & denying internal transfers, then prepare for business killing industrial action. The truth is, Qantas management have been at war with its pilots for the last 10 years. It makes me sick to the bottom of my stomach to see John Travolta promote the excellence of "the pilots up front" at the beginning of the safety demo for marketing spin, knowing full well that it is the same pilots management have marked for extermination.
Qantas pilots have been backed into a corner by management with only one option left, major industrial action. This is not about money, it is about a career & progression. Qantas pilots have been denied opportunity to progress their career, without the opportunity to take positions on more "competitive" contracts when there are jobs available. When people have nothing to lose, they lose it. It is entirely in managements hands to stop this madness & insanity. They, and only they choose the path forward, there is no compromise available to the pilots.
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Management are already winning the PR war
From Balance's quote from News.com, management are already ahead.
Barry Jackson got 2 lines in, one of which being a direct quote.
The rest was ALL QF.
So guess who has got the first public shot across with respect to pay? Yep - management - saying that it's all about increased pay and undermining the icon.
The message should be simple:
- no pay rise over CPI
- job security
Maybe THAT should be on the lanyards (and big, very visible QF-red stickers on crew bags as they go around the carousel?).
They are playing the standard, these-highly-paid-glorified-bus-drivers-want-more-dosh strategy, so think up something different.
Barry Jackson got 2 lines in, one of which being a direct quote.
The rest was ALL QF.
So guess who has got the first public shot across with respect to pay? Yep - management - saying that it's all about increased pay and undermining the icon.
The message should be simple:
- no pay rise over CPI
- job security
Maybe THAT should be on the lanyards (and big, very visible QF-red stickers on crew bags as they go around the carousel?).
They are playing the standard, these-highly-paid-glorified-bus-drivers-want-more-dosh strategy, so think up something different.
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Does Qantas show the John Trav safety demo tape on Jetconnect services. Or do they show a different one where a Travolta look-alike states he could not feel safer having a Pilot impersonating a Qantas pilot up front?
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As alluded elsewhere. In todays world he who wins the P.R. battle wins. We are techincal creatures...
P.R. + Advertising + P.R. Professionals on talk shows + + + ... ASAP. Please! 
P.R. + Advertising + P.R. Professionals on talk shows + + + ... ASAP.
Please!
If according to Qantas there is NO threat to jobs, why then won't they put their money where their mouth is and put their assurance in writing? One can only assume because they have other plans.
It is important to note that the overall wage claim from AIPA is not 2.5% pa as reported in the press. The combined effect of the annual and classification increases currently proposed by AIPA is 14.4% over three years. The combined effect of the wage claim, classification table and travel claims submitted by AIPA is a cost increase of approximately 26% over three years, equivalent to an 8.15% increase year on year.
I suppose the truth is somewhere inbetween.
Anyone care to elaborate further please.
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The maths I'm afraid are a little beyond me. Maybe I'm a simple pilot, but:
8.15% x 3 = 24.45%
So where does 26% and 14.4% come in? They can't even get these figures right? No wonder Qantas' (read: Jetstar) accounting is absolutely shonky!
8.15% x 3 = 24.45%
So where does 26% and 14.4% come in? They can't even get these figures right? No wonder Qantas' (read: Jetstar) accounting is absolutely shonky!
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Not Only But Also
This is not only about the pilots in the organization but also about every other employee.This is the beginning of the EBA cycle.The outcome here will affect every other EBA.just as the engineers stood their ground so too do mainline pilots.
The time has come the walrus said.Everything hinges on this.The bastards win this and its thank you linesmen,thank you ballboys.Qantas will be finished and the proud,safe tradition of Australian Aviation will go with it.
May the good be with you gentlemen.
Stand your ground.
The time has come the walrus said.Everything hinges on this.The bastards win this and its thank you linesmen,thank you ballboys.Qantas will be finished and the proud,safe tradition of Australian Aviation will go with it.
May the good be with you gentlemen.
Stand your ground.
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Spin from QF PR
I am a mainline QF pilot. I have read the documents pertaining to AIPA's claims.
AIPA in summary have come up with a mechanism to stop mainline flying from disappearing to any number of entities management can dream up. They have also asked for Redundancy provisions to be put in place so that when they inevitably come we can pay the bills till we work out what to do with ourselves. We asked also for 2.5% PA.
Somehow management have calculated that all this will cost the company 8.15% pa. The pr department have spun this into we are asking for 8.15% pay rise....
Apparently Aipa offered a 10% pay cut during negotiations. But even this was thrown back in our face.
There is a real feeling amongst mainline pilots that we are already damned. Over the past ten years QF management have slowly, but steadily sidelined us . We've been told some wonderful stories along the way and unfortunately management have lost all integrity. AJ has a massive task on his hands. Im not sure what he could do to win our trust back. The fact that they will not accept Aipa's claims no matter how low we go is further evidence they have something ugly in store for us.
Ive already accepted promotion within QF has dried up. id just like to keep my Job or have provision to work within the group.
This is a turning point. What will be the shape of aviation in oz. Will our sons and daughters look to the skies and dream of being an Airline pilot? Off shore our jobs and there are bound to be more serious consequences. I find it amazing QF would do all this just to save $3 a ticket on your average sector (and yes I've done my homework). when will the government step in.
Why would the sharpest and brightest consider this industry in its present state.
AIPA in summary have come up with a mechanism to stop mainline flying from disappearing to any number of entities management can dream up. They have also asked for Redundancy provisions to be put in place so that when they inevitably come we can pay the bills till we work out what to do with ourselves. We asked also for 2.5% PA.
Somehow management have calculated that all this will cost the company 8.15% pa. The pr department have spun this into we are asking for 8.15% pay rise....
Apparently Aipa offered a 10% pay cut during negotiations. But even this was thrown back in our face.
There is a real feeling amongst mainline pilots that we are already damned. Over the past ten years QF management have slowly, but steadily sidelined us . We've been told some wonderful stories along the way and unfortunately management have lost all integrity. AJ has a massive task on his hands. Im not sure what he could do to win our trust back. The fact that they will not accept Aipa's claims no matter how low we go is further evidence they have something ugly in store for us.
Ive already accepted promotion within QF has dried up. id just like to keep my Job or have provision to work within the group.
This is a turning point. What will be the shape of aviation in oz. Will our sons and daughters look to the skies and dream of being an Airline pilot? Off shore our jobs and there are bound to be more serious consequences. I find it amazing QF would do all this just to save $3 a ticket on your average sector (and yes I've done my homework). when will the government step in.
Why would the sharpest and brightest consider this industry in its present state.
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Just an idea -The simple message concept for the punter.
We are technical creatures
Qantas is being striped of its culture of excellence bit by bit in all areas of the company over a ten year period, it appears in favour of the Jetstar model, a kind of Ryanair of the Pacific. This is risky, as no one wants to see the demise of the famous Qantas brand, the very name that funded Jetstar in the first place. We believe that no Australian wants to see a vast proportion of Qantas operations moved to an Asian city.
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Keg,
You purport to know all:
Who exactly,by name or title is telling pilots this?
Who exactly,by name or title told pilots this?
You purport to know all:
why are Captains and First Officers being told that demotions are 'on the table' later this year when assigned leave runs out?
Qantas pilots were told to make $8 million worth of savings or pilots would be made redundant.