Merged: Proposed QF Group Pilot Seniority

[Mstr Caution]

My 2 Cents worth.

In November of 2010, around the time of the Qantas 90th Anniversary celebrations Joyce was quoting the following:

"we now have a strong business" (QF group)

"a sustainable portfolio of businesses which complement each other"

furthermore qantas must "focus on what we can control"

So whats happened since November 2010? EBA negotiations are now open?

The two big costs Qantas can control is labour & fuel.

Labour thru the current round of EBA negoatiations.

Fuel by means of the huge investment in the fleet renewal program. Isn't the figure something like $22US Billion (150 aircraft) over the next 10 years with (more) fuel efficient aircraft.

Meanwhile mainline have spent $140M on lounges over the last 2 years, blown $46M courtesy of the Icelandic eruptions & $400M on reconfiguring the B744 & A380 fleet to name a few.

I can't help but think the current negotiations are part of the QFuture program. If your not aware of the QFuture program it started in 2009 & is a 3 year program aimed at providing Qantas sustainable growth. By means of a $1.5 Billion revenue improvements. Achieving this by increased revenue streams & costs savings across a range of operational & non operational areas.

MC

[TIMA9X]

Is Qantas ditching unaffordable excellence? – Plane Talking

Is Qantas ditching unaffordable excellence?

The company has persisted with a failed network concept and a failed re-equipment program and uncompetitive products and seems determined to try and solve these issues by off shoring some of its assets and costs through the device of basing Australian registered aircraft in Singapore. The small beginnings of a major shift in strategy. It closed an engine shop that was critical to keeping its aged fleet of Rolls-Royce powered 747s safe over the far southern ocean routes or across the Pacific to North America. It deals itself out of knowledge and oversight over the engines Rolls-Royce put on its flagship A380s, only to put better versions on those supplied to other A380 operators without telling Qantas a thing until one of them rips itself apart, and tears 27 holes through the wing in the process, on the November 4 flight of one its A380s from Singapore to Sydney.
At the tense meeting between itself, its strike breaker contractor and the union yesterday Qantas refuses to consider anything that might give job security to the pilots that are the best trained in the world.
Why? There are several possible reasons for this. The widely discussed possible reason is that Qantas is determined to end the employment of pilots under ‘legacy’ terms and conditions and churn them back, through Jetstar, under different agreements. The less widely discussed reason refers to nebulous statements from Jetstar about the setting up of a pilot resource from which non Australian pilots flying elsewhere on the Jetstar franchises could perform flying in Australia for Jetstar at favorable rates. No doubt like those of guest workers in the building industry employed on temporary visas.
If such an arrangement is set up for Jetstar there is no reason why it then couldn’t be applied to Qantas, what’s left of it.
The bizarre situation arises now that Qantas has a cadre of pilots who appear to have a longer term loyalty to the carrier than its management. The former are prepared to put standards ahead of remuneration if it keeps the carrier truly Australian. The latter don’t want to know about it.

Again a great piece from Ben Sandilands, says it all, I believe the correct message is getting out.

[teresa green]

For christs sake from a 89er, play this real cool. I cannot even begin to tell you whats its like to find no job. Realise that the enemy has all sorts of help and info that you don't have. Stay united, because you can be sure there are scabs. There are always scabs. I hoped that we would never see another situation like this again, at least there is no govt. intervention (not yet anyway) and good luck fella's, what you are doing is right, but don't fall into a trap like we did, and believe me, they will be setting one.

[TBM-Legend]

Greedy, self-serving people who wish to hold the Australian people [read economy] and tourism industry to ransom as Qld tries to recover from natures work should go away and hang their collective empty heads in shame....

Folks lost their lives/homes/all possessions and JOBS....

[Fliegenmong]

Nev Nobody...

"The management's idea of a good airline will be Australian registered aircraft with crews flying in from all over Asia and the Pacific to crew them for a bowl of rice and a couple of days in a cheap hotel.

They'd have it now too....if only the ALP lost the last election .. Ahh....what could have been.....sighs.....Abbot and his ilk sinking the boot in....loooxury!!.............Foreign Pilots on 457 visas..or if that doesn't work for mngmnt of the day....change the rules....hey has anyone heard BTW what the supposedly esteemed ex treasurer has to say about current banana crops???

[Fliegenmong]

Teresa green is spot on here....hold your cool.........calm under fire boys & girls.......it may come to pass that QF becomes unknown to us...a terrible shame that would be??

ld be..though we should respect that some will make fortunes out of it.....Alan Joyce has a fiduciary requirement to bend you over and accept the pineapple...and from that many shareholders do too......I've no doubt many (all) shareholders were never told "to make a small fortune in the airline industry, you need to start out with a big fortune

....I was never a fan of the idea, but just perhaps, maybe it should be a national identity again n?? Maybe a few other institutions as well....free market or at lest how to find a good fishmongre

[Capt Roo]

QF pilot's strike?

Oh no - here we go again. ....

do we never learn?

[clotted]

ROH111

The $8m mention by Keg is in relation to the previous pre-EBA saga where jobs were threatened unless $8m was raised.

With due respect you should read the question. The question is about who actually made the said threat and in what forum or whether it was actually made or whether it was some other words that have actually morphed into a hyped up legend.
It is not about what it relates to.

[hotnhigh]

I'll bite clotted.
This from the AIPA newlsletter to membership
22 July 2009



Excess of Pilots and Possible Redundancy Update


As you are aware, the Company has indicated that there is currently a significant excess of pilots, and they may provide pilots with 6 months redundancy notices within the next few months. AIPA is in the process of negotiating with the Company how best to handle this situation and avoid redundancies, whether that is within the provisions of the current Certified Agreement or via a variation.

The survey that is currently available to you will enable AIPA to gauge the membership’s preferences for dealing with the excess of pilots. I would strongly encourage you to participate so that your view and preferences can be heard. The survey closes at 0800 on Friday, 24 July.

AIPA’s Committee of Management will review the survey results and decide on a course of action at next Tuesday's Special COM meeting. Then there is an AIPA Special General Meeting on Wednesday, 29 July at 1000 (at St George Rowing Club, Wolli Creek, NSW) to put to the membership the proposed path that is to be taken.

If the Certified Agreement is to be varied, this can only be achieved by mutual negotiation and agreement between AIPA and the Company. The proposed change then needs to be passed by a majority vote by pilots. Pursuing these avenues takes time, possibly more time than we currently have available.

AIPA is strongly recommending and requesting that all ranks and fleets consider applying for flexilines. This is particularly pertinent to B767 F/Os and all S/Os on all fleets as they have nearly exhausted the various forms of leave available for the Company to use as a method of managing the pilot surplus.

The Company has requested that applications for flexilines effective BP266 be received by close of business tomorrow – Thursday, 23 July 2009. Flexilines are available for 90 [44]/ 110 [55] / 130 [66] / 150 [71.5] hrs for a minimum of three bid periods.


And the following weeks newsletter.
AIPA Insights 29 July 2009

THE PRESIDENT’S VIEW
Managing the Surplus: Special General Meeting Feedback
Today AIPA held a Special General Meeting at the St George Rowing Club to discuss all issues relevant to managing the surplus and possible redundancies facing our junior members in the long haul mainline operation. In this edition of AIPA Insights I will give a brief summary of the meeting.
The meeting was attended by over 200 members.
I personally invited Flight Operations management to attend the meeting, but neither Capt Peter Wilson nor Capt Dick Tobiano were able to do so.
I have informed the meeting that:
The Company has asked AIPA to find a saving of roughly $8 million to cover the cost of carriage of the pilots that may be surplus. AIPA is in the process of verifying costings of various options proposed and will be meeting with the Company this coming Friday to negotiate, in more detail, the options available to both parties. AIPA will keep the membership informed as these discussions progress and, should changes to your Certified Agreement be required, it will firstly be discussed by the Committee of Management, after which a majority vote of members would be required. AIPA and the Company are currently discussing ways of avoiding any pilot losing their job.

As you know, AIPA recently distributed a quick survey to gauge the thoughts and preferences of Qantas mainline members, and I was pleased to see a very healthy 82% of you responded. Other indications are that 93% of those surveyed thought it was positive that AIPA was working cooperatively with the Company to address the redundancy problem. What was also pleasing to hear was that 81% of the Captains and First Officers surveyed were willing to have a “collective” attitude to potential redundancies. AIPA will use this survey as guidance as we address the current issues affecting many of our members.

As you are also aware, the Company and AIPA have been encouraging long haul mainline members who can afford it, to consider taking Flexi-Lines to avoid the need for redundancies - and 247 of you have responded. I have to thank you for that - especially the Second Officers who have made a sacrifice to save your colleagues’ jobs. As AIPA and the Company discuss these issues it must be pointed out that if a collective solution is agreed upon, those who have taken Flexi-Lines will be given an opportunity to resume a full line.

Many great ideas in addressing the current surplus have been received and I thank those of you who have sent ideas forward and encourage more to be forthcoming. Some options being considered include deferring some or all of the 15 August long haul increment and reducing MGH across the board to come up with the savings. These options would require a variation to the Long Haul Certified Agreement and, as indicated previously, a vote of the membership. AIPA will keep you informed as this develops.


Sorry about the depth, but as you can see Qantas mainline pilots have always been proactive in their attempts to help when they can.
And what was that payout to Geoff again?????

[clotted]

hotnhigh:

Less than two years ago Qantas pilots were told to make $8 million worth of savings or pilots would be made redundant.

does not equal

The Company has asked AIPA to find a saving of roughly $8 million to cover the cost of carriage of the pilots that may be surplus. AIPA is in the process of verifying costings of various options proposed and will be meeting with the Company this coming Friday to negotiate, in more detail, the options available to both parties. AIPA will keep the membership informed as these discussions progress and, should changes to your Certified Agreement be required, it will firstly be discussed by the Committee of Management, after which a majority vote of members would be required.

I'm told nothing came of this.

I have also been told this happened.

the Company and AIPA have been encouraging long haul mainline members who can afford it, to consider taking Flexi-Lines to avoid the need for redundancies - and 247 of you have responded.

[Keg]

clotted. I'm not going into specifics here. If you can get a hold of past memos to crew then that may be a good starting point.

Additionally, given the number of flight crew briefings held in 2009 and since then the time the statements can be attributed to any number of management people on multiple occasions.

Nothing came of it because flight crew made the $8 million in savings without needing a 'variation' to the award.

[clotted]

Keg:

I'm not going into specifics here.

Because you don't know?
Your above posts are full of assertions and short on verifiable fact. If you could say, with your hand on your heart, I, Keg heard XX make this statement/threat at or on or in YYY ,that would be OK.

flight crew made the $8 million in savings without needing a 'variation' to the award.

So that I can check out what I am being told, can you detail what these savings were, apart from flexi-lines.
Thanks

[blueloo]

I think most of the savings came from 767 crews having the location of the allowances randomly changed in airports (along with varying opening hours to keep us guessing) and transit times minimised so they couldnt collect them!

[adsyj]

Clotted

You were just provided with the answer to the question you asked.

I agree with Keg there is no reason to provide specifics to non mainline pilots on an internet forum, The information is freely available to pilots.

I was on Flexi line and and SO.

What is your agenda. This is bloody serious and is a genuine direct threat to my career.

I would appreciate it if you don't clutter the thread by trying to engage pilots in petty and inane posts in the midst of a real threat to our jobs.

[OneDotLow]

Clotted :

why are Captains and First Officers being told that demotions are 'on the table' later this year when assigned leave runs out?
Who exactly,by name or title is telling pilots this?

QF Chief Pilot, within the last week. Up to 150 were his figures. AIPA then told him if he was going to threaten to do it, then do it right now and prove that he is not just sabre rattling. His back-pedalling response was (paraphrasing) "Well, we are considering it and that is what is in store for the future when leave runs out".

Making pilots redundant at the same time as they are asking for job security would not be a good look, methinks.

Qantas pilots were told to make $8 million worth of savings or pilots would be made redundant.

QF Chief pilot back in 2009. The savings were made through flexi lines and donation of annual leave by the pilots for the pilots.

['holic]

BrainClotted,

The Company has asked AIPA to find a saving of roughly $8 million to cover the cost of carriage of the pilots that may be surplus.

Read this. Reread this. Get your kids to read it and explain it to you.

If you are asking did AJ ring me and make this statement, no he did not. That redundancies were threatened if we didn't come up with the savings is not in question, by either side. If you had access to Qrewroom, you would see posts by management pilots that verify this.

If you want to go into the forensics of it, why don't you start a new thread. You could title it 'The Decline of English Comprehension"

[PammyAnderson]

I chatted to several Long Haul Q pilots (friends) yesterday. Both said they would happily "vote" to strike if they had too however admitted they would not actually do it after watching the 89 debacle. They also said that would just give Qantas management an excuse to increase the Jetstar hiring immediately and possibly take over more of mainline quicker than what is happening now.

And here lies the problem. Threatening strike is one thing, actually doing it is another. Even worse though, is what to do when management may be even hoping you do strike???

Yes it may cause short term pain "in their eyes" but they may also view it as long term gain for their big plan. Yes I really think they are dumb enough to have that attitude. So be careful what you wish for guys in terms of strike. Will everyone go through with it? and will it really help your cause or theirs?

Good luck to you all. Tis a hard one.

[Mstr Caution]

Clotted.

The company held briefings around the network, at which fleet manager DT stated at the Melbourne Hilton Hotel (2009) the company was looking at:

1. 160 excess mainline pilots
2. Imminent Mainline redundancies on B744 & A380 S/O ranks
3. B767 F/O reduction in numbers (30) to A380 S/O

& would seek to avoid redundancies by:

1. Offering Voluntary Redundancies to Senior Crews
2. Delay 4% pay increase or take 2% now & delay the second 2%
3. Negotiating any other outcome with AIPA.

MC.

['holic]

'89 gets a mention in a few posts. I think it needs to be pointed out that if you take PIA, it is illegal for your employer to sack you.

[clotted]

The company held briefings around the network, at which fleet manager DT stated at the Melbourne Hilton Hotel (2009) the company was looking at:

1. 160 excess mainline pilots
2. Imminent Mainline redundancies on B744 & A380 S/O ranks
3. B767 F/O reduction in numbers (30) to A380 S/O

& would seek to avoid redundancies by:

1. Offering Voluntary Redundancies to Senior Crews
2. Delay 4% pay increase or take 2% now & delay the second 2%
3. Negotiating any other outcome with AIPA.

MC.

That's the answer I was after. That accords with the AIPA newsletter quote. It also puts that part of the subject in a sensible rather than threatening context.

To all the others trying to win the point by shouting down: you'll need more than that to win the fight that has just been picked on your behalf!

I would appreciate it if you don't clutter the thread by trying to engage pilots in petty and inane posts in the midst of a real threat to our jobs.

adsyj,
you can put your head between your knees and contemplate the view from that position as far as I am concerned.