Merged: Joe Eakins: Brave?....or....
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I was demonstrating that equating the deal with Third World conditions is preposterous.
a fair indication of how far removed from the reality of global economics pilots have become as a profession.
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Seems to me
If you buy a house by an airport, then start bitching about noise; or, sign an agreement, then want to renege on the deal; or, have taken a job you did not want, then it's time for honesty.
You knew it was a crook deal, or, you were blinded by a shiny new jet.
Tough titties. You signed, you take the money, you sign the COM, you take the 217 pass.
Why is this a bitch fest???. Not hostile, curious.
You knew it was a crook deal, or, you were blinded by a shiny new jet.
Tough titties. You signed, you take the money, you sign the COM, you take the 217 pass.
Why is this a bitch fest???. Not hostile, curious.
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Aircraft operating on the Australian AOC is a temporary measure only.
Just like JQNZ operating SYD-Nandi and the flight attendants operating out of BKK and SIN crewing the majority of JQ international and “domestic tag” flying on “regionally relevant” wages. Give me a break.
Reference to cut in remuneration is a blatant lie - do the maths...
JQ AUS (SIN BASE) A-330 CAPT base pay $120 000 SGD/1.28 (Xe.com mid-market rate)= $93 750 AUD base pay versus A-330 Wide Body Captain as per Jetstar Pilot’s EBA 2008 for year starting 1 Jan 2011- $180,871. 93 750/180 871(x100/1)= a 48.2% pay reduction. Almost 50%, in fact it would have been very close as stated by the author when the article was submitted and the exchange rate was $1AUD=$1.30SGD. So you do the math. And I stand to be corrected.
One route will be Australian - Singapore/Melbourne. The next planned routes are not.
Like SYD-HNL or CNS-NRT or virtually all Australian based international routes for the flight attendants. It is a lie, and the more I see of them, the more I hate lies. Do you think that it is “just one”? If that is the case, then you are as naive as you are blinkered. Alternatively you could merely be a management stooge justifying the unjustifiable for your own personal gain. Let the readers of this forum be the judge.
No, they just do it in a seniority based system because they think they know better than management, the Operations Manual and FCOMs...
So you refute the assertion that pilots that refuse to toe the company line are disciplined or refused promotion. So you think that Pilots with straight 4’s and 5’s will get promotion in your system if they question it? How many of management pilots in the said organisation are ex AN “mates” looking to feather their retirement? (No disrespect to all the great ex AN pilots trying to make the organisation a better place). The answer to this question my friend will be determined by far higher powers than ourselves.
Please name all of those people in the Third World who get paid just under $10,000 a month for doing absolutely no work, which is what this 'dreadful Singapore deal' guarantees.
Each and every one of the flight attendants who are being used to displace Australian employees from Australian flying and in the near future and each and every pilot “based” out of Singapore who is paid less than the Air Pilots Award 2010 to fly Australian Registered Aircraft on Australian routes.
Please Clockwork Droll, do your research and until then get back to your gardenia plantation until you have something more useful to say.
Just like JQNZ operating SYD-Nandi and the flight attendants operating out of BKK and SIN crewing the majority of JQ international and “domestic tag” flying on “regionally relevant” wages. Give me a break.
Reference to cut in remuneration is a blatant lie - do the maths...
JQ AUS (SIN BASE) A-330 CAPT base pay $120 000 SGD/1.28 (Xe.com mid-market rate)= $93 750 AUD base pay versus A-330 Wide Body Captain as per Jetstar Pilot’s EBA 2008 for year starting 1 Jan 2011- $180,871. 93 750/180 871(x100/1)= a 48.2% pay reduction. Almost 50%, in fact it would have been very close as stated by the author when the article was submitted and the exchange rate was $1AUD=$1.30SGD. So you do the math. And I stand to be corrected.
One route will be Australian - Singapore/Melbourne. The next planned routes are not.
Like SYD-HNL or CNS-NRT or virtually all Australian based international routes for the flight attendants. It is a lie, and the more I see of them, the more I hate lies. Do you think that it is “just one”? If that is the case, then you are as naive as you are blinkered. Alternatively you could merely be a management stooge justifying the unjustifiable for your own personal gain. Let the readers of this forum be the judge.
No, they just do it in a seniority based system because they think they know better than management, the Operations Manual and FCOMs...
So you refute the assertion that pilots that refuse to toe the company line are disciplined or refused promotion. So you think that Pilots with straight 4’s and 5’s will get promotion in your system if they question it? How many of management pilots in the said organisation are ex AN “mates” looking to feather their retirement? (No disrespect to all the great ex AN pilots trying to make the organisation a better place). The answer to this question my friend will be determined by far higher powers than ourselves.
Please name all of those people in the Third World who get paid just under $10,000 a month for doing absolutely no work, which is what this 'dreadful Singapore deal' guarantees.
Each and every one of the flight attendants who are being used to displace Australian employees from Australian flying and in the near future and each and every pilot “based” out of Singapore who is paid less than the Air Pilots Award 2010 to fly Australian Registered Aircraft on Australian routes.
Please Clockwork Droll, do your research and until then get back to your gardenia plantation until you have something more useful to say.
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Finally
Posted without comment
Jetstar pilot sacked after criticising airline
Jetstar pilot sacked after criticising airline
Qantas's low-cost subsidiary Jetstar faces a legal challenge under unfair dismissal and freedom-of-association laws after it sacked a pilot who expressed safety concerns about the airline to the Herald.
Jetstar sacked Joseph Eakins, 31 - a pilot with the airline since 2007 with 5500 hours experience - a month after Fairfax Media news websites published his concerns last month.
Mr Eakins, 31, a Jetstar Airbus A330 first officer and a representative with the Australian and International Pilots Association, criticised the discount airline's ''offshore'' employment strategy.
In the opinion piece, Mr Eakins wrote that Australia's aviation safety culture '' … will be obliterated if the offshoring push continues … Draconian workplace conditions can be imposed through the use of foreign 'bases of convenience', allowing … Third World wages and working conditions.''
Jetstar sacked Joseph Eakins, 31 - a pilot with the airline since 2007 with 5500 hours experience - a month after Fairfax Media news websites published his concerns last month.
Mr Eakins, 31, a Jetstar Airbus A330 first officer and a representative with the Australian and International Pilots Association, criticised the discount airline's ''offshore'' employment strategy.
In the opinion piece, Mr Eakins wrote that Australia's aviation safety culture '' … will be obliterated if the offshoring push continues … Draconian workplace conditions can be imposed through the use of foreign 'bases of convenience', allowing … Third World wages and working conditions.''
''I feel like my life has been destroyed for speaking up and telling the truth in a legitimate and measured manner,'' Mr Eakins said.
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Finally - Article about sacking
The best thing everyone could do now is to go to the article Challenge to pilot's sacking and repost it on their facebook/tweet on twitter (links on the left of the page). The more people that read this the better, and generating more traffic on the article tells the newpaper that the story is newsworthy.
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OYY1
One more point to consider is that the ATO may choose to consider such a pilot as a resident for Australian tax purposes. Which means a reduction in Net pay.
This has been discussed elsewhere at length. But IIRC, the general consensus was that the ATO would sting you for the difference.
DIVOSH!
This has been discussed elsewhere at length. But IIRC, the general consensus was that the ATO would sting you for the difference.
DIVOSH!
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Well I see that there is at least one person capable of doing their calculations correctly - thanks for saving me the trouble there OYY1. So Yossarian, how about you doing your research and presenting factual calculations in the future if you want to show off your math prowess?
BTW does it make you feel like a big man making a personal attack on me? Well bring it on. Interesting that almost everyone here who posts an alternative view to that of the masses is labelled a managment stooge and has some derogatory comment made about them.
Singapore is not a third world country - so you better re-do that list for me Yossaris. But FYI pay rates in third world countries for the average worker are closer to $100 dollars a month (I'm being generous) for working their asses off. Aside from that, I'm pretty sure these flight attendants you go on about in your list will be pretty interested to know that's what they are earning, and I believe the Australian flight attendants will be pretty damn pissed if that's the case too! They'll all be running to get one of these off shore contracts - idiot!
Now tell me, if the company is so reprehensible why don't you quit and work somewhere else? Oh that's right, because that seniority system of yours would see you right at the bottom of a very long ladder... Actually I am not claiming that one system is better than another - the people who break the rules under a seniority system will break the rules under a merit based system or a combined system, because such people will be morons under whatever system they operate. So claiming that one system is better than another from a safety perspective is at best misleading.
Anyway, it's time for me to leave this mud pit now.... but have fun attacking me while I'm gone if it makes you feel good
BTW does it make you feel like a big man making a personal attack on me? Well bring it on. Interesting that almost everyone here who posts an alternative view to that of the masses is labelled a managment stooge and has some derogatory comment made about them.
Singapore is not a third world country - so you better re-do that list for me Yossaris. But FYI pay rates in third world countries for the average worker are closer to $100 dollars a month (I'm being generous) for working their asses off. Aside from that, I'm pretty sure these flight attendants you go on about in your list will be pretty interested to know that's what they are earning, and I believe the Australian flight attendants will be pretty damn pissed if that's the case too! They'll all be running to get one of these off shore contracts - idiot!
Now tell me, if the company is so reprehensible why don't you quit and work somewhere else? Oh that's right, because that seniority system of yours would see you right at the bottom of a very long ladder... Actually I am not claiming that one system is better than another - the people who break the rules under a seniority system will break the rules under a merit based system or a combined system, because such people will be morons under whatever system they operate. So claiming that one system is better than another from a safety perspective is at best misleading.
Anyway, it's time for me to leave this mud pit now.... but have fun attacking me while I'm gone if it makes you feel good
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One more point to consider is that the ATO may choose to consider such a pilot as a resident for Australian tax purposes. Which means a reduction in Net pay.
This has been discussed elsewhere at length. But IIRC, the general consensus was that the ATO would sting you for the difference.
This has been discussed elsewhere at length. But IIRC, the general consensus was that the ATO would sting you for the difference.
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Jetstar sacks pilot who raised safety concerns
By Timothy McDonald
Former Jetstar pilot Joe Eakins says the airline sacked him because he criticised his employer in an article published in the Fairfax Press.
Ah! You say, "but none of these incidents are related!" Of course they effing well are! They are all related to the practice of current management in many organisations of trying to get blood out of a stone and ignoring effects on corporate culture, let alone the feelings of the individual employees concerned, let alone the long term negative effects of their bastardry on the organisation. Airlines are fertile grounds for bastardry because they consist of the differing tribes of pilots engineers, cabin crew as well as office staff. There are almost infinite gradations in the various pecking orders caused by seniority, aircraft type, qualifications and suchlike, all held together by Twenty Four hour duty rosters that can be played like a violin by management intent on gratifying itself by causing misery. This is trust reducing behaviour and it is going to bite you.
Continue you current management behaviour Qantas, and you will go the way of Ansett. The RR/A380 thing was a bit of a surprise wasn't it? Let the regulator and ATC continue on their merry way as well and wait for the eventual Coroners Inquiry and Royal Commission, it's coming.
By Timothy McDonald
Former Jetstar pilot Joe Eakins says the airline sacked him because he criticised his employer in an article published in the Fairfax Press.
- Audio: Jetstar pilot says he was sacked over public comments (AM)
- Related Story: Jetstar plane forced to turn back
- Related Story: AirAsia takes on Jetstar on Darwin-to-Bali route
- Related Story: Fuel problem strands 240 Jetstar passengers.
The answer is backwards, certainly in Australia and probably internationally if recent revelations about the Indian subcontinent, the behaviour of the likes of Ryanair are anything to go by. Read the Colgan Buffalo crash cockpit transcript and weep. Two poor schmucks trying to make a dollar, and flying wasn't even their first career choice! Look at the current situation of Sunstate engineers - being docked four hours pay for being a little slow changing a tire! Look at the procession of cases sent to the AAT regarding CASA! Look at the air traffic control incident involving Emirates and Qantas and the perennial discussions about the difficulty of recruiting and training ATC staff! Look at criticism of Jetstars pilot cadet scheme.
Ah! You say, "but none of these incidents are related!" Of course they effing well are! They are all related to the practice of current management in many organisations of trying to get blood out of a stone and ignoring effects on corporate culture, let alone the feelings of the individual employees concerned, let alone the long term negative effects of their bastardry on the organisation. Airlines are fertile grounds for bastardry because they consist of the differing tribes of pilots engineers, cabin crew as well as office staff. There are almost infinite gradations in the various pecking orders caused by seniority, aircraft type, qualifications and suchlike, all held together by Twenty Four hour duty rosters that can be played like a violin by management intent on gratifying itself by causing misery. This is trust reducing behaviour and it is going to bite you.
Continue you current management behaviour Qantas, and you will go the way of Ansett. The RR/A380 thing was a bit of a surprise wasn't it? Let the regulator and ATC continue on their merry way as well and wait for the eventual Coroners Inquiry and Royal Commission, it's coming.
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Of for goodness sake Clockwork your being very precious....yes personal attacks are pointless on this forum and indicative of the state we have let ourselves get into but just have a look at what you are defending......
Years ago the profession of pilot was well-regarded, well-paid and relatively secure. Upwardly mobile managers with the assistance of the selfish amongst our own ranks have helped to decimate that to the point where it is simply not viable spending a fortune on learning to fly only to end up with a rag-tag outfit like at least 2 Australian airlines. Airlines that are so myopic that rather than actually address the problems they are creating they sack somebody who dares to highlight this situation.
On a global standard, in comparison to other airlines Qantas is fair to middling in terms of quality of life and compensation. I have a fair idea of this myself having seen a number first-hand. Virgin is described by most of the people I speak to there as 'adequate' but in hindsight not something they would have set their sights on as a kid learning to fly.
The folks who fly/flew for Jetstar almost to a man seem to hate it. Not just mildly dislike but hate. I'm sure not everybody feels that way but it seems to be the general feeling. The only difference between pilots there is some have the ability and courage to pack up bags and head overseas. And to a man they are SO happy to get out of there.
And for the life of me having seen the standards of pilots trained in less than professional jurisdictions I cannot understand the stupidity of managers who think it's a sensible business plan to set up 'flag of convenience' airlines in countries other than where they are based simply to screw with thing like pilot terms and conditions. Sure it looks good on paper but for gods sake look at the minefield of risks this is opening.
There are things in the aviation industry you shouldn't mess with. Maintenance is one (Qantas currently having 'karma' from it's messing with apprenticeships and screwing engineers?). The other is pilot standards. Not only 'if you pay peanuts you get monkeys' but you potentially kill people.
Who will be held accountable for killing people?
Joe Eakins had the guts to raise this point and got the sack for it and people amongst us (like Clockwork Doll who may or may not be a 'management stooge' but sure sounds like it) are sufficiently myopic/brainwashed or paid to come on here - that they actually defend such a situation.
Something is rotten in this industry. Joe got sacked for highlighting it and we do very little to counter this situation - at our own peril. I may sound melodramatic but this is happening right before our eyes.
Keep the pressure on now people (like getting Joes' article back in today's Fairfax press) before an aircraft flown by over-worked, underpaid and particularly undertrained pilots full of Australian passengers flies into a hill.
All to save a few dollars and increase some 'Master of the Universe' CEO's bonus.
Years ago the profession of pilot was well-regarded, well-paid and relatively secure. Upwardly mobile managers with the assistance of the selfish amongst our own ranks have helped to decimate that to the point where it is simply not viable spending a fortune on learning to fly only to end up with a rag-tag outfit like at least 2 Australian airlines. Airlines that are so myopic that rather than actually address the problems they are creating they sack somebody who dares to highlight this situation.
On a global standard, in comparison to other airlines Qantas is fair to middling in terms of quality of life and compensation. I have a fair idea of this myself having seen a number first-hand. Virgin is described by most of the people I speak to there as 'adequate' but in hindsight not something they would have set their sights on as a kid learning to fly.
The folks who fly/flew for Jetstar almost to a man seem to hate it. Not just mildly dislike but hate. I'm sure not everybody feels that way but it seems to be the general feeling. The only difference between pilots there is some have the ability and courage to pack up bags and head overseas. And to a man they are SO happy to get out of there.
And for the life of me having seen the standards of pilots trained in less than professional jurisdictions I cannot understand the stupidity of managers who think it's a sensible business plan to set up 'flag of convenience' airlines in countries other than where they are based simply to screw with thing like pilot terms and conditions. Sure it looks good on paper but for gods sake look at the minefield of risks this is opening.
There are things in the aviation industry you shouldn't mess with. Maintenance is one (Qantas currently having 'karma' from it's messing with apprenticeships and screwing engineers?). The other is pilot standards. Not only 'if you pay peanuts you get monkeys' but you potentially kill people.
Who will be held accountable for killing people?
Joe Eakins had the guts to raise this point and got the sack for it and people amongst us (like Clockwork Doll who may or may not be a 'management stooge' but sure sounds like it) are sufficiently myopic/brainwashed or paid to come on here - that they actually defend such a situation.
Something is rotten in this industry. Joe got sacked for highlighting it and we do very little to counter this situation - at our own peril. I may sound melodramatic but this is happening right before our eyes.
Keep the pressure on now people (like getting Joes' article back in today's Fairfax press) before an aircraft flown by over-worked, underpaid and particularly undertrained pilots full of Australian passengers flies into a hill.
All to save a few dollars and increase some 'Master of the Universe' CEO's bonus.
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Just been comparing the two instances of pilots stories in the media of late. One guy was brave enough to offer credibility by declaring his identity. The other was protected by the media (although how secure that is time will tell).
Now this just shoots the constant bashing by a certain well known ppruner in the backside.
It does not pay to be critical with your own name in this industry! 
Now this just shoots the constant bashing by a certain well known ppruner in the backside.
It does not pay to be critical with your own name in this industry!
People's Front of Judea.
I got to page three of this thread and my eyes started bleeding.
You boys (not all, mind you) remind me of the People's Front of Judea.
Sit around here and endlessly discuss things, form a sub-committee to debate what actions should be taken, and argue whether it's the PFJ of the JPF.
Meanwhile, Brian gets crucified.
Get off your goddamn computer. Pick up the phone. Arrange a meeting. Get some solidarity. Sort it out. It will involve a physical action and maybe even laying your jobs on the line.
Let it go, and it will be sorted out alright. By a major prang, after which everybody will bleat: "Why was nothing done?"
And CASA - I'm looking at you too.
You boys (not all, mind you) remind me of the People's Front of Judea.
Sit around here and endlessly discuss things, form a sub-committee to debate what actions should be taken, and argue whether it's the PFJ of the JPF.
Meanwhile, Brian gets crucified.
Get off your goddamn computer. Pick up the phone. Arrange a meeting. Get some solidarity. Sort it out. It will involve a physical action and maybe even laying your jobs on the line.
Let it go, and it will be sorted out alright. By a major prang, after which everybody will bleat: "Why was nothing done?"
And CASA - I'm looking at you too.
So Boys, the time is now upon us.
One of our colleagues has been fired for putting his balls on the line and stating publicly what many here have been saying privately. He has done this, presumably, in an attempt to stop the slide of conditions in our industry. In other words, he did it for us all.
Now comes the big test. If AIPA fail to get this guy reinstated through FWA, who is going to make the stand. If the pilots of Australia stand idly buy and let this guy lose his job, and fail to take any action, then the message management will hear is that (as we already suspect) the pilots of Australia are a bunch of gutless, self centered prima donnas.
This is the hour my friends. If we do not stand up for Joe Eakins, and I'm talking taking it to the wire, then Buchanan and Joyce will have a green light to do whatever they want, because they will know that the pilots are too frightened to fight.
Make no mistake, Virgin and Tiger are going to be watching as well. They will also be reading the tea leaves if there is no industrial support for Joe.
The future is now in our hands. If the industry supports this guy, then the message to the bosses will be equally clear, and it will be that they have now pushed too far and the pilots are prepared to make a stand to stop the rot.
Interesting times indeed.
One of our colleagues has been fired for putting his balls on the line and stating publicly what many here have been saying privately. He has done this, presumably, in an attempt to stop the slide of conditions in our industry. In other words, he did it for us all.
Now comes the big test. If AIPA fail to get this guy reinstated through FWA, who is going to make the stand. If the pilots of Australia stand idly buy and let this guy lose his job, and fail to take any action, then the message management will hear is that (as we already suspect) the pilots of Australia are a bunch of gutless, self centered prima donnas.
This is the hour my friends. If we do not stand up for Joe Eakins, and I'm talking taking it to the wire, then Buchanan and Joyce will have a green light to do whatever they want, because they will know that the pilots are too frightened to fight.
Make no mistake, Virgin and Tiger are going to be watching as well. They will also be reading the tea leaves if there is no industrial support for Joe.
The future is now in our hands. If the industry supports this guy, then the message to the bosses will be equally clear, and it will be that they have now pushed too far and the pilots are prepared to make a stand to stop the rot.
Interesting times indeed.
I wonder if the bookies will take bets on how quick AIPA rolls over?
Bite down hard boys you all know they will.
I hear AIPA are really,really cross and will even consider a harshly worded letter!
Real unions like the TWU must be shaking their heads in disbelief at you lot.
Bite down hard boys you all know they will.
I hear AIPA are really,really cross and will even consider a harshly worded letter!
Real unions like the TWU must be shaking their heads in disbelief at you lot.
Last edited by mostlytossas; 26th Nov 2010 at 00:16.
Its in this morning's Daily Telegraph.....
'On Line' version received today Fri 26/11/10.....
Pilot sacked for questioning airline safety | The Daily Telegraph
Good Luck Guys and Gals......
'On Line' version received today Fri 26/11/10.....
Pilot sacked for questioning airline safety | The Daily Telegraph
Good Luck Guys and Gals......
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It might be a real good idea JQ, to have a look at what the young bloke said, digest it, could it be right, do you need to change a few things, or are you going down a blind path, that could well come to a sticky end. Rather than shoot the messenger, perhaps listen to someone who cared enough to put his job on the line. AIPA, get this bloke back to work, and the rest of you, get behind him, you know how, without downing tools, there are other ways. If you fail this young bloke, you are going to be on the chopping block for ever more, we learnt a lot from 89' but since then the pilots have had little say, in fact they have been kept submissive with the ever threat of "we know how to fix you bastards" attitude. Want to spend the rest of your working life like that?
So now we have huge media attention on Jetstar over the sacking rather than the almost non-attention in the media the original letter raised.
Smartest guys in the room this J* management!
Smartest guys in the room this J* management!
