Merged: Joe Eakins: Brave?....or....
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GA DRIVER Said :
So what are the Jstar pilots doing about this? I read a lot of justifications of why they took jobs and conditions but read very little from Jstar crew about the poor bloke who has been sacked. Are you going to do something about this? Stopping for a meeting? Why isn't the pilot group and union in the media shouting this? This will be disgusting if they get away with this and nothing happens.
Back to the topic, YES, Joe HAS been sacked
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C'mon. It's now Tuesday and this was being talked about on Saturday.
Time is of the essence to right a very clear wrong and take charge of yourselves and your future careers and finally stop yourselves from being bullied and treated like scum.
Time is of the essence to right a very clear wrong and take charge of yourselves and your future careers and finally stop yourselves from being bullied and treated like scum.
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I read a lot of justifications of why they took jobs and conditions but read very little from Jstar crew about the poor bloke who has been sacked. Are you going to do something about this? Stopping for a meeting? Why isn't the pilot group and union in the media shouting this? This will be disgusting if they get away with this and nothing happens.
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I think you will find that the Fair Work Act's Freedom of Association provisions explicitly override anything contained in an industrial agreement such as an EBA or an ancillary document such as an employee "code of conduct" booklet.
I also think you will find that AIPA are concerning themselves with getting this guy's job back as their first priority before they "release the dogs of war" to the courts and the media should more subtle measures of negotiation prove ineffective.
I also think you will find that AIPA are concerning themselves with getting this guy's job back as their first priority before they "release the dogs of war" to the courts and the media should more subtle measures of negotiation prove ineffective.
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A few points for consideration.
Firstly, it is Tuesday, and apart from this site and JQ pilot forum, no mention of this anywhere. What is the mighty AIPA doing?
Secondly, after been constantly hounded to join a union over the last 6 months, an having joined about a month ago, I have to state the following. " You must join a union for your own benefit, cause the company will hang you out to dry and you need representation to prevent this happening". Well, old mate was in the union and they couldn`t stop this from happening.
Thirdly, did JE run the article by AIPA legal before sending it to the media? If not, then a silly move. If so, why didn`t AIPA advise him to remove his name. Could have kept his title at the bottom. Why didn`t AIPA submit the aritcle on his behalf? (I can hear some of the responses being typed right now. If AIPA did know about the article, they would certainly have know that it was going to light a fire.) I hope it was not a attempt by AIPA to highlight the very clear and correct issues affecting J* and the QF group, using an actually pilot and name which has backfired in a most extreme way.
Lastly, what are J* pilots suppose to do. We have been told constantly over the last few months by AIPA and the JPC President, what we can and can`t do legally (can do is a very short list and can`t do is a very long list). Now I am hearing calls to take action from what I can only assume are guys not working at J*. And then the JPC head, pleading with people to take no action. ( i haven`t heard one person within the company with a, 'call to arms', 'unleash the dogs or war', etc.) So the JPC calls seem a little clouded and confused.
Tell me what I should do, can do and what AIPA are doing?
Firstly, it is Tuesday, and apart from this site and JQ pilot forum, no mention of this anywhere. What is the mighty AIPA doing?
Secondly, after been constantly hounded to join a union over the last 6 months, an having joined about a month ago, I have to state the following. " You must join a union for your own benefit, cause the company will hang you out to dry and you need representation to prevent this happening". Well, old mate was in the union and they couldn`t stop this from happening.
Thirdly, did JE run the article by AIPA legal before sending it to the media? If not, then a silly move. If so, why didn`t AIPA advise him to remove his name. Could have kept his title at the bottom. Why didn`t AIPA submit the aritcle on his behalf? (I can hear some of the responses being typed right now. If AIPA did know about the article, they would certainly have know that it was going to light a fire.) I hope it was not a attempt by AIPA to highlight the very clear and correct issues affecting J* and the QF group, using an actually pilot and name which has backfired in a most extreme way.
Lastly, what are J* pilots suppose to do. We have been told constantly over the last few months by AIPA and the JPC President, what we can and can`t do legally (can do is a very short list and can`t do is a very long list). Now I am hearing calls to take action from what I can only assume are guys not working at J*. And then the JPC head, pleading with people to take no action. ( i haven`t heard one person within the company with a, 'call to arms', 'unleash the dogs or war', etc.) So the JPC calls seem a little clouded and confused.
Tell me what I should do, can do and what AIPA are doing?
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Msmoker, relax.
AIPA and the JPC dont run to PPRuNe to update the table thumpers here.
Just because they havent posted doesnt mean nothings happening.
AIPA knows more about IR law than anyone thats posted here and if there was an immediate action to take that was beneficial they would have already said so.
If anyone here has concerns they would like allayed, for gods sake pick up the bloody phone.
Fear, uncertainty and scaremongering on here is wholly unproductive and one of the worst things we can do to ourselves as a pilot body.
Well done on joining AIPA.
W9
AIPA and the JPC dont run to PPRuNe to update the table thumpers here.
Just because they havent posted doesnt mean nothings happening.
AIPA knows more about IR law than anyone thats posted here and if there was an immediate action to take that was beneficial they would have already said so.
If anyone here has concerns they would like allayed, for gods sake pick up the bloody phone.
Fear, uncertainty and scaremongering on here is wholly unproductive and one of the worst things we can do to ourselves as a pilot body.
Well done on joining AIPA.
W9
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Hey Metro Man
While you are on the phone why not ring JE and ask if he is getting his money's worth out of AIPA. Or ask that poor sod who got the bullet from J* a month earlier if they are happy with the way they are being represented.
While you are on the phone why not ring JE and ask if he is getting his money's worth out of AIPA. Or ask that poor sod who got the bullet from J* a month earlier if they are happy with the way they are being represented.
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I think you will find that the Fair Work Act's Freedom of Association provisions explicitly override anything contained in an industrial agreement such as an EBA or an ancillary document such as an employee "code of conduct" booklet.
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For anyone that hasn't read it:
I can still recall the first time I looked skyward to watch a jumbo jet soar overhead. As a 10-year-old growing up in the late 1980s, I dreamed that one day I would be at the controls of one of those mighty machines as it roared through the skies.
After 10 years as a pilot, currently as a First Officer on Airbus A330's, the thrill is still there.
But the next generation of youngsters with the same dream may never realise it, with the latest cost-cutting attempts by airline bean counters threatening the very existence of an Australian aviation sector.
Jetstar have led the way, recently announcing a plan to cut pilot labour costs by hiring crew for several new Australian-registered A330 aircraft, operated under Australian Air Operator's Certificates, out of Singapore where they will employ air crew on wages well below their Australian-based colleagues.
While they are offering the jobs to Australian pilots first, albeit on contracts that cut basic remuneration by almost 50 per cent, the remaining positions will be filled out of Singapore and Vietnam.
This follows similar moves with their New Zealand-based JetConnect subsidiary, that pays pilots about 70 per cent of their Australian colleagues' wages, and the "offshoring" of a large proportion of Jetstar's Australian-based international flight attendants to Thailand and Singapore.
Many of these Australian employees have been replaced by workers flown in from "bases of convenience" in Singapore and Bangkok on employment conditions well below the applicable Australian award.
While the conditions of flight crew have come under the knife, Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan has been promoted by creating an additional layer of management between himself and operational staff, and in doing so has been rewarded with a 43 per cent pay rise.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has also joined the cause, last week accusing pilots of being in "cloud-cuckoo land" for opposing the offshoring of jobs, saying: "The fact is that we are in a highly competitive market, we need to have an Asian carrier with Asian rates." The irony of this statement is that the Qantas Group already has two Asian carriers with Asian rates, Jetstar Asia and Jetstar Pacific.
What Joyce is trying to do is to distract the public gaze from the real point of contention, which is having an Australian carrier operating on Australian routes, but having employees paid "Asian rates" through artificially manufactured overseas bases.
The Australian and International Pilot's Association, which represents the majority of Jetstar pilots, is taking legal action arguing that pilots flying Australian aircraft on Australian routes should be paid the same wages as local crew, whether they are flying out of New Zealand or Singapore.
Pilots, through AIPA, have also expressed concern regarding the company's desire to undermine the pilot seniority system as a mechanism for promotion, which is standard practice in almost all the world's respected Airlines.
While the new Jetstar contracts that promote pilots according to "merit" may sound like a good idea, it is important to take a closer look. Airline pilots, like many other professionals, are paid as much to refuse to do certain things as they are to get the job done. Every day in the life of a professional airline pilot is spent evaluating risks and determining the safest course of action. Sometimes this safest course of action will be at odds with the short-term commercial imperatives of the company.
A pilot operating within a seniority system has no incentive to take risks or break the rules to appease management and increase their chances of promotion. Conversely a pilot operating under the "merit"-based promotion system, particularly in a company that views cost saving as its fundamental value, will be under implicit pressure to please management or risk their career advancement prospects.
These disputes have broad implications for all Australians. Firstly, our reputation for aviation excellence has been built on the dedication, training, hard work and experience of local pilots over many decades, a culture that will be obliterated if the offshoring push continues and the proven and effective seniority system is scrapped.
Secondly, Jetstar has demonstrated that, while WorkChoices may be "dead and buried", the new Fair Work Act can be circumvented and draconian workplace conditions can be imposed through the use of foreign "bases of convenience", allowing Australian operations to be staffed with people on Third World wages and working conditions.
Already young pilots who have successfully completed recruitment with Jetstar Australia have been contacted by the company and offered New Zealand or Singaporean contracts on unfavourable terms.
The Australian aviation sector is at a crossroads. Not only are the dreams of the youngsters who look skyward at risk, but the institutions that created our reputation for safety through well trained experienced pilots is under threat, which is bad news for all Australians.
Joseph Eakins is a Jetstar A330 First Officer and a member of the Australian and International Pilot's Association.
After 10 years as a pilot, currently as a First Officer on Airbus A330's, the thrill is still there.
But the next generation of youngsters with the same dream may never realise it, with the latest cost-cutting attempts by airline bean counters threatening the very existence of an Australian aviation sector.
Jetstar have led the way, recently announcing a plan to cut pilot labour costs by hiring crew for several new Australian-registered A330 aircraft, operated under Australian Air Operator's Certificates, out of Singapore where they will employ air crew on wages well below their Australian-based colleagues.
While they are offering the jobs to Australian pilots first, albeit on contracts that cut basic remuneration by almost 50 per cent, the remaining positions will be filled out of Singapore and Vietnam.
This follows similar moves with their New Zealand-based JetConnect subsidiary, that pays pilots about 70 per cent of their Australian colleagues' wages, and the "offshoring" of a large proportion of Jetstar's Australian-based international flight attendants to Thailand and Singapore.
Many of these Australian employees have been replaced by workers flown in from "bases of convenience" in Singapore and Bangkok on employment conditions well below the applicable Australian award.
While the conditions of flight crew have come under the knife, Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan has been promoted by creating an additional layer of management between himself and operational staff, and in doing so has been rewarded with a 43 per cent pay rise.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has also joined the cause, last week accusing pilots of being in "cloud-cuckoo land" for opposing the offshoring of jobs, saying: "The fact is that we are in a highly competitive market, we need to have an Asian carrier with Asian rates." The irony of this statement is that the Qantas Group already has two Asian carriers with Asian rates, Jetstar Asia and Jetstar Pacific.
What Joyce is trying to do is to distract the public gaze from the real point of contention, which is having an Australian carrier operating on Australian routes, but having employees paid "Asian rates" through artificially manufactured overseas bases.
The Australian and International Pilot's Association, which represents the majority of Jetstar pilots, is taking legal action arguing that pilots flying Australian aircraft on Australian routes should be paid the same wages as local crew, whether they are flying out of New Zealand or Singapore.
Pilots, through AIPA, have also expressed concern regarding the company's desire to undermine the pilot seniority system as a mechanism for promotion, which is standard practice in almost all the world's respected Airlines.
While the new Jetstar contracts that promote pilots according to "merit" may sound like a good idea, it is important to take a closer look. Airline pilots, like many other professionals, are paid as much to refuse to do certain things as they are to get the job done. Every day in the life of a professional airline pilot is spent evaluating risks and determining the safest course of action. Sometimes this safest course of action will be at odds with the short-term commercial imperatives of the company.
A pilot operating within a seniority system has no incentive to take risks or break the rules to appease management and increase their chances of promotion. Conversely a pilot operating under the "merit"-based promotion system, particularly in a company that views cost saving as its fundamental value, will be under implicit pressure to please management or risk their career advancement prospects.
These disputes have broad implications for all Australians. Firstly, our reputation for aviation excellence has been built on the dedication, training, hard work and experience of local pilots over many decades, a culture that will be obliterated if the offshoring push continues and the proven and effective seniority system is scrapped.
Secondly, Jetstar has demonstrated that, while WorkChoices may be "dead and buried", the new Fair Work Act can be circumvented and draconian workplace conditions can be imposed through the use of foreign "bases of convenience", allowing Australian operations to be staffed with people on Third World wages and working conditions.
Already young pilots who have successfully completed recruitment with Jetstar Australia have been contacted by the company and offered New Zealand or Singaporean contracts on unfavourable terms.
The Australian aviation sector is at a crossroads. Not only are the dreams of the youngsters who look skyward at risk, but the institutions that created our reputation for safety through well trained experienced pilots is under threat, which is bad news for all Australians.
Joseph Eakins is a Jetstar A330 First Officer and a member of the Australian and International Pilot's Association.
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Clockwork Doll said "its a pity that he published misinformation designed to incite support of an opinion"
Sorry am I missing something here?
Is Joe Eakins' item not a coherent and restrained precis of the state of the industry in Australia at present?
An industry where numbskull managers are hell-bent on screwing everybody and savaging all expenses in order to climb the corporate ladder and fatten their own wallets via incentive bonuses. Where guffawing slaps-on-the-back by fellow 'titans of industry' far outweigh any social injustice or damage done. Where if treating everybody like excrement means I get invited to drinks at G.Harvey's place it will all be worth it? What a pathetic way of living life.
This nonsense is why unions, as unfashionable as they currently are after the extremes of the 60's and 70's, are vital.
And at the end of the day when you're about to set foot in the grave, I can't really believe that todays' "revered" hard-nosed CEO could feel good about his life for having so successfully screwed so many people for what is his own benefit. If as a CEO, that's your contribution to this earth then in my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself. And like a dag on the bum of a sheep, industrial 'advocate' clingons have even less to be proud of.
Joe Eakins may not make millions of $ in his life (although I suspect he is sufficiently intelligent that he will succeed at anything he does) but judging by the sentiments in his article he will sure as hell get more out of life than somebody who worships the almighty dollar to the extent that he will screw anybody and anything that gets in his way.
$$$$ are not the only yardstick of personal worth.
And if Australian pilots don't get organised and grow some collective cohones and unity then this type of obsenity will simply keep recurring.
Red-wine rant now complete
Sorry am I missing something here?
Is Joe Eakins' item not a coherent and restrained precis of the state of the industry in Australia at present?
An industry where numbskull managers are hell-bent on screwing everybody and savaging all expenses in order to climb the corporate ladder and fatten their own wallets via incentive bonuses. Where guffawing slaps-on-the-back by fellow 'titans of industry' far outweigh any social injustice or damage done. Where if treating everybody like excrement means I get invited to drinks at G.Harvey's place it will all be worth it? What a pathetic way of living life.
This nonsense is why unions, as unfashionable as they currently are after the extremes of the 60's and 70's, are vital.
And at the end of the day when you're about to set foot in the grave, I can't really believe that todays' "revered" hard-nosed CEO could feel good about his life for having so successfully screwed so many people for what is his own benefit. If as a CEO, that's your contribution to this earth then in my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself. And like a dag on the bum of a sheep, industrial 'advocate' clingons have even less to be proud of.
Joe Eakins may not make millions of $ in his life (although I suspect he is sufficiently intelligent that he will succeed at anything he does) but judging by the sentiments in his article he will sure as hell get more out of life than somebody who worships the almighty dollar to the extent that he will screw anybody and anything that gets in his way.
$$$$ are not the only yardstick of personal worth.
And if Australian pilots don't get organised and grow some collective cohones and unity then this type of obsenity will simply keep recurring.
Red-wine rant now complete
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What misinformation?
Doll - are you going to specify what you think the "misinformation" is? If not, then your contribution is little better.
For those presently undertaking hugely expensive flying training, you could give them some useful information - couldn't you?
For those presently undertaking hugely expensive flying training, you could give them some useful information - couldn't you?
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getting organised!!!!
Well been flying the line the past couple of days....and if i had not bought it up...it would not even make conversation....Pushing the hard line about this and not even a reaction. Nobody seems to think at, J* that this is something that requires "a little thought".................quite shameful...
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Doll - are you going to specify what you think the "misinformation" is? If not, then your contribution is little better.
Jetstar have led the way, recently announcing a plan to cut pilot labour costs by hiring crew for several new Australian-registered A330 aircraft, operated under Australian Air Operator's Certificates, out of Singapore where they will employ air crew on wages well below their Australian-based colleagues.
While they are offering the jobs to Australian pilots first, albeit on contracts that cut basic remuneration by almost 50 per cent, the remaining positions will be filled out of Singapore and Vietnam.
What Joyce is trying to do is to distract the public gaze from the real point of contention, which is having an Australian carrier operating on Australian routes, but having employees paid "Asian rates" through artificially manufactured overseas bases.
A pilot operating within a seniority system has no incentive to take risks or break the rules to appease management and increase their chances of promotion.
Secondly, Jetstar has demonstrated that, while WorkChoices may be "dead and buried", the new Fair Work Act can be circumvented and draconian workplace conditions can be imposed through the use of foreign "bases of convenience", allowing Australian operations to be staffed with people on Third World wages and working conditions.
These are just a few - read the article again and see if you can pick out some of the others...
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get paid just under $10,000 a month for doing absolutely no work, which is what this 'dreadful Singapore deal' guarantees.
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Where can I get details of this deal or did your reasoned argument become a misinformed rant at the last second?
That's the guaranteed $$$ minimum per month assuming there isn't enough flying - but given the flying hours will be considerably higher than for pilots based in Australia due to base numbers, they'll be earning a whole lot more than that. Taking into account the tax advantages and that their super component is paid direct to them they are going to be happy boys come the EOFY! Happier than many of the ones here who keep talking about the draconion pay & work conditions.
And before someone says that they won't be eligible for the tax benefits - DO YOUR RESEARCH!!
Last edited by Clockwork Doll; 24th Nov 2010 at 07:13.
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You misunderstand; I don't want the job and certainly couldn't afford to earn that little. However, you talk about misinformation and selectively 'answer' quotations but then you go off on a rant about $10000 for doing absolutely 'no work' and that's a guarantee. I'm doing my research and just trying to ensure it's not 'misinformation' being planted by a management stooge.
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You misunderstand; I don't want the job and certainly couldn't afford to earn that little. However, you talk about misinformation and selectively 'answer' quotations but then you go off on a rant about $10000 for doing absolutely 'no work' and that's a guarantee. I'm doing my research and just trying to ensure it's not 'misinformation' being planted by a management stooge.
Rather than ranting I was demonstrating that equating the deal with Third World conditions is preposterous. The suggestion that a guaranteed minimum of $10000 a month is comparative to the Third World is a fair indication of how far removed from the reality of global economics pilots have become as a profession.
Finally, as for answering selective quotes I simply have neither the time nor inclination to answer the entire article sentence by sentence. The frequenters of this forum will believe what they want to believe, regardless of the truth... and I have far better things to do than bang my head against a brick wall
