Merged: Senate Inquiry
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$36K for a Singaporean Flight attendant ?
Sounds a bit much for me ?
$87K for cadets in Australia ?
$67-71K for cadets in NZ ?
I suppose if they do max hours (above the min. quota as Bruce was trying to say)they might get this much ???? Is this possible ?
Sounds a bit much for me ?
$87K for cadets in Australia ?
$67-71K for cadets in NZ ?
I suppose if they do max hours (above the min. quota as Bruce was trying to say)they might get this much ???? Is this possible ?
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Kelpie,
Hope you are right.
There were many key issues that on my take questions were less than probing or reflective of previous evidence provided.
Non more so than this whole NZ cadet scheme seems to have left unresolved when there was ample opportunity to drag out the truth. Maybe I missed it.
The pattern of conduct re Tag flights seemed to be the only issue to get some traction and Rat management just held the line.
I am getting bored and with less hope of any meaningful outcome so think I will go fishing.
Hope I am wrong.
Hope you are right.
There were many key issues that on my take questions were less than probing or reflective of previous evidence provided.
Non more so than this whole NZ cadet scheme seems to have left unresolved when there was ample opportunity to drag out the truth. Maybe I missed it.
The pattern of conduct re Tag flights seemed to be the only issue to get some traction and Rat management just held the line.
I am getting bored and with less hope of any meaningful outcome so think I will go fishing.
Hope I am wrong.
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An Article from "The Australian" by Ben Packham:
and read The Email in full:
http://resources.news.com.au/files/2...star-email.pdf
Great culture.
Toughen up, tired Jetstar pilots told | The Australian
Ben Packham From: The Australian March 31, 2011 11:22AM
A SENIOR Jetstar manager told pilots to "toughen up princesses" after complaints about fatigue on the budget airline's Perth to Singapore route.
The instruction was contained in an email admonishing the airline's pilots, tabled in a Senate committee hearing today in which Qantas and Jetstar executives were questioned about safety standards.
In it, pilots were told: "Aeroplanes don't make money sitting on the tarmac, they need to keep flying".
The email opened with the warning: "If you are easily offended then delete this email and read no further. Toughen up princesses! You aren't fatigued, you are tired and can't be bothered going to work."
However the author, a Perth-based pilot manager, admitted that overnight flights on the Perth to Singapore route were a "horror shift".
The pilot manager acknowledged in the email that when he flew the shift, he operated below his normal standards.
"By trial and error, I have worked out what works for me so I can manage the shift," he said.
"I can say I hate the shift and I definitely don't operate to my normal standard. I am tired throughout the shift, feel terrible, but I would not call it fatigued."
He concludes the email by saying he was not speaking as a base pilot, but "as a pilot who hasn't lost touch with reality and who wants to make this Perth base work".
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce said the surprise tabling of the email, by South Australian independent Senator Nick Xenophon, made it difficult for management to respond properly to the issues raised about its airline subsidiary.
He said it was in the airline's interests to hear safety complaints, but those with information should go through the proper channels.
"That document should be sent to the regulator for the regulator to have a look at it," Mr Joyce said.
"That's what should be happening with the process. And we are very happy to cooperate with the regulators - we do - to have a look at these issues when they arise."
Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan said there was an incorrect perception the airline pushed its crews to the limit.
“Our pilots are working on average, 18 hours flying a week, where you have a compliance maximum of 25 hours a week,'' he told the Senate's rural affairs and transport committee.
“I look at the averages of worked hours across all the bases and I can't see any of them getting close to the limits at the moment.''
Senator Xenophon said the email raised serious concerns over safety and the management culture at Jetstar.
“Fatigue is a serious issue and can have an impact on the ability for pilots and crews to effectively navigate a plane,'' he said.
"The intimidation in this email is alarming and indicates that there may be a bullying culture among pilots.''
But Mr Joyce said he was concerned the email was being taken out of context.
"I'm worried about this note that we've got now from a pilot, that this is not a misrepresentation.'' he said.
Mr Joyce said the Qantas group took a comprehensive approach to fatigue management to ensure pilots were fresh and ready to fly.
But he said pilots also had a duty to manage their own levels of tiredness.
"It's up to the pilot to identify ... if he's not comfortable and shouldn't be flying. And we rely on that as well as the system,'' he said.
Ben Packham From: The Australian March 31, 2011 11:22AM
A SENIOR Jetstar manager told pilots to "toughen up princesses" after complaints about fatigue on the budget airline's Perth to Singapore route.
The instruction was contained in an email admonishing the airline's pilots, tabled in a Senate committee hearing today in which Qantas and Jetstar executives were questioned about safety standards.
In it, pilots were told: "Aeroplanes don't make money sitting on the tarmac, they need to keep flying".
The email opened with the warning: "If you are easily offended then delete this email and read no further. Toughen up princesses! You aren't fatigued, you are tired and can't be bothered going to work."
However the author, a Perth-based pilot manager, admitted that overnight flights on the Perth to Singapore route were a "horror shift".
The pilot manager acknowledged in the email that when he flew the shift, he operated below his normal standards.
"By trial and error, I have worked out what works for me so I can manage the shift," he said.
"I can say I hate the shift and I definitely don't operate to my normal standard. I am tired throughout the shift, feel terrible, but I would not call it fatigued."
He concludes the email by saying he was not speaking as a base pilot, but "as a pilot who hasn't lost touch with reality and who wants to make this Perth base work".
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce said the surprise tabling of the email, by South Australian independent Senator Nick Xenophon, made it difficult for management to respond properly to the issues raised about its airline subsidiary.
He said it was in the airline's interests to hear safety complaints, but those with information should go through the proper channels.
"That document should be sent to the regulator for the regulator to have a look at it," Mr Joyce said.
"That's what should be happening with the process. And we are very happy to cooperate with the regulators - we do - to have a look at these issues when they arise."
Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan said there was an incorrect perception the airline pushed its crews to the limit.
“Our pilots are working on average, 18 hours flying a week, where you have a compliance maximum of 25 hours a week,'' he told the Senate's rural affairs and transport committee.
“I look at the averages of worked hours across all the bases and I can't see any of them getting close to the limits at the moment.''
Senator Xenophon said the email raised serious concerns over safety and the management culture at Jetstar.
“Fatigue is a serious issue and can have an impact on the ability for pilots and crews to effectively navigate a plane,'' he said.
"The intimidation in this email is alarming and indicates that there may be a bullying culture among pilots.''
But Mr Joyce said he was concerned the email was being taken out of context.
"I'm worried about this note that we've got now from a pilot, that this is not a misrepresentation.'' he said.
Mr Joyce said the Qantas group took a comprehensive approach to fatigue management to ensure pilots were fresh and ready to fly.
But he said pilots also had a duty to manage their own levels of tiredness.
"It's up to the pilot to identify ... if he's not comfortable and shouldn't be flying. And we rely on that as well as the system,'' he said.
http://resources.news.com.au/files/2...star-email.pdf
Great culture.
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In Camera now!!
Seems that Jetstar may have fudged the report on the Darwin windshear incident in their clarification to the ATSB!! or should I say economical with the truth!!
Also just speculation, but I wonder whether the pilot in the Darwin incident was invited in for a meeting just like Joe Eakins and asked to pen that letter that Buchanan had at his disposal dissenting the statements made by Captain Richard Woodward at the last hearing?
That FDR is getting pulled - mark my words!!!
Seems that Jetstar may have fudged the report on the Darwin windshear incident in their clarification to the ATSB!! or should I say economical with the truth!!
Also just speculation, but I wonder whether the pilot in the Darwin incident was invited in for a meeting just like Joe Eakins and asked to pen that letter that Buchanan had at his disposal dissenting the statements made by Captain Richard Woodward at the last hearing?
That FDR is getting pulled - mark my words!!!
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I haven't had the chance to tune in today. All I can say is this:
If certain/some of the Senators perception is that its all a case of whining pilots/cabin crew then best they wrap it up ASAP and stop wasting peoples time. As far as I'm concerned let the industry continue to run its course as it has been for decades. Let foreign FO's with 200 hours sit in the RHS, let the BOC and the B scales roll on.
Experienced pilots will take their skills to another country or industry: Problem solved. There's more than one way to make a dollar you know. It's not like jail where you can't leave.
If you're going to be doing BOC for the rest of your life might as well do it full service where the entire business model isn't based on cost cutting:
EMIRATES ROAD SHOW
Perth
1st April 10am
Duxton Hotel
1 St Georges Terrace, Perth, WA
Melbourne
3rd April 10am
Hilton On The Park
192 Wellington Parade, East Melbourne, VIC
Auckland
5th April 10am
Pullman Auckland
Cnr Waterloo Quadrant & Princes St
Auckland City, New Zealand
Brisbane
6th April 10am
Hilton Brisbane
190 Elizabeth St, Brisbane, QLD
Sydney
7th April 2pm
Hilton Sydney,
488 George St, Sydney, NSW
Yeah I know the heat, the sand. Well, toughen up princess!
If certain/some of the Senators perception is that its all a case of whining pilots/cabin crew then best they wrap it up ASAP and stop wasting peoples time. As far as I'm concerned let the industry continue to run its course as it has been for decades. Let foreign FO's with 200 hours sit in the RHS, let the BOC and the B scales roll on.
Experienced pilots will take their skills to another country or industry: Problem solved. There's more than one way to make a dollar you know. It's not like jail where you can't leave.
If you're going to be doing BOC for the rest of your life might as well do it full service where the entire business model isn't based on cost cutting:
EMIRATES ROAD SHOW
Perth
1st April 10am
Duxton Hotel
1 St Georges Terrace, Perth, WA
Melbourne
3rd April 10am
Hilton On The Park
192 Wellington Parade, East Melbourne, VIC
Auckland
5th April 10am
Pullman Auckland
Cnr Waterloo Quadrant & Princes St
Auckland City, New Zealand
Brisbane
6th April 10am
Hilton Brisbane
190 Elizabeth St, Brisbane, QLD
Sydney
7th April 2pm
Hilton Sydney,
488 George St, Sydney, NSW
Yeah I know the heat, the sand. Well, toughen up princess!
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c173
In camera means 'in private' as it may well involve discussion not for the public ears yet or information of a commercial or embarrassing nature for the Government.
Kelpie
In camera means 'in private' as it may well involve discussion not for the public ears yet or information of a commercial or embarrassing nature for the Government.
Kelpie
I cannot believe that any manager - essentially what a base pilot is - would be foolish enough to put something like that in writing.
If the author is still the base pilot, I shall be interested to see how long that remains the status quo.
Truly astonishing.
http://resources.news.com.au/files/2...star-email.pdf
If the author is still the base pilot, I shall be interested to see how long that remains the status quo.
Truly astonishing.
http://resources.news.com.au/files/2...star-email.pdf
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So - who's the princess pilot who was stupid enough to write an email like that reported?
Is this a classic case of the sort of DH airlines traditionally place in pilot mamagement?
I suspect so.
The list continues.
Is this a classic case of the sort of DH airlines traditionally place in pilot mamagement?
I suspect so.
The list continues.
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I cannot believe that any manager - essentially what a base pilot is - would be foolish enough to put something like that in writing.
Im betting the base pilot is just trying avoid giving the company anymore reasons to close the base. Anyone else know if management has told them to "toe the line, or else..."?
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Not your best angle Alan. You are looking a bit stressed. What is on your mind?
That look Priceless!!
Big difference to this one when the Senate Inquiry was announced
Last edited by The Kelpie; 31st Mar 2011 at 04:48.
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Ah yes Kelpie the second one is my personal favourite. Thats the sort of laugh you get when you know you've got the government onside. You can't lose.
Today's hearing highlights inadequacies of certain "managers" in Airlines. Such is the importance of the role that it might require a some minimum standards of tertiary education.
Food for thought isn't it. Afterall its hardly like a management position at you local tavern is it now?
Now lets make those smiles go away...
Today's hearing highlights inadequacies of certain "managers" in Airlines. Such is the importance of the role that it might require a some minimum standards of tertiary education.
Food for thought isn't it. Afterall its hardly like a management position at you local tavern is it now?
Now lets make those smiles go away...
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Alan is looking a little tubby around the face these days, perhaps QF will pay for some gym membership for him ? As for Boston Bruce, well I like the Kirk Douglas chin he sports, very manly.
But seriously, the two different pictures depict two different points in time. Picture 1 depicts two guys in charge of a never ending gravy train while Picture 2 depicts two guys who have had their oyster turned inside out and upside down.
But seriously, the two different pictures depict two different points in time. Picture 1 depicts two guys in charge of a never ending gravy train while Picture 2 depicts two guys who have had their oyster turned inside out and upside down.
Originally Posted by Hat
Such is the importance of the role that it might require a some minimum standards of tertiary education.
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Better get your comments in on this link Tired Jetstar pilots told to 'toughen up' and keep flying, inquiry hears | Herald Sun
Not much sympathy amongst the uneducated public.
Not much sympathy amongst the uneducated public.