Pilots of Australia - time to unite - Meeting Aug 23
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Flogging the deadest of dead horses...
For gods sake... I only log in and check pprune about 3 times a year for a laugh. Last time I logged on the same stuff was being thrashed out.
I ejected out of that idiot infested industry years ago over the same issues that are still being beaten to death today for a far more interesting career. Best thing i ever did - great money, lots of opportunity, overly generous employers who invest in me and reward my efforts and I can guarantee that i will never be out of work as long as I want it and where I want to live. Best of all, almost no pathetic unions talking about what happened 30 year ago.
I respect you guys for fighting the good fight but I think you are wasting your time. Go have your pilot meeting but let me promise you:
You wont win.
You wont change a thing.
Youi never had "the power" so dont expect to win it back.
Most of you will cave in and roll over on day one.
The company will always outsmart you or out negotiate you.
Your little $2.57 payment per week to your union mates will do nothing to stop company plans.
Your jobs will be sent whenever they want them sent.
You will be probably working harder next year for less remuneration.
You will still be pecking at the little tray of aeroplane food off your lap at 3am over the ocean absolutely hating the dropkick sitting beside you in another year.
Good luck but this landmark meeting will be another pilot winge-fest and will not have influenced the stategic directions of large employers by one single millimeter. They have you by the plums and they know it. Deep down, you know it also.
I dont know why people continue to do it. Flying really isn't that interesting anymore. To those effected, enjoy living in Saigon or Taipei or whatever asian smog hole they pack you off to. I'll log in in another few months and see how well you all get on.
Good luck boys and girls.
I ejected out of that idiot infested industry years ago over the same issues that are still being beaten to death today for a far more interesting career. Best thing i ever did - great money, lots of opportunity, overly generous employers who invest in me and reward my efforts and I can guarantee that i will never be out of work as long as I want it and where I want to live. Best of all, almost no pathetic unions talking about what happened 30 year ago.
I respect you guys for fighting the good fight but I think you are wasting your time. Go have your pilot meeting but let me promise you:
You wont win.
You wont change a thing.
Youi never had "the power" so dont expect to win it back.
Most of you will cave in and roll over on day one.
The company will always outsmart you or out negotiate you.
Your little $2.57 payment per week to your union mates will do nothing to stop company plans.
Your jobs will be sent whenever they want them sent.
You will be probably working harder next year for less remuneration.
You will still be pecking at the little tray of aeroplane food off your lap at 3am over the ocean absolutely hating the dropkick sitting beside you in another year.
Good luck but this landmark meeting will be another pilot winge-fest and will not have influenced the stategic directions of large employers by one single millimeter. They have you by the plums and they know it. Deep down, you know it also.
I dont know why people continue to do it. Flying really isn't that interesting anymore. To those effected, enjoy living in Saigon or Taipei or whatever asian smog hole they pack you off to. I'll log in in another few months and see how well you all get on.
Good luck boys and girls.
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Wooden Eye, right on the money, APA is the answer, does not matter if you are airline, RFDS, GA, freight dogs, wombats, You are UNBEATABLE all together, most companies will think twice before shafting any of you, AS LONG AS YOU STICK TOGETHER, keep the ball rolling, you are on the right track.
Victor Two
"I ejected out of that idiot infested industry years ago"
Yep but you are still on an aviation forum??????
I guess maybe then you still do give a crap because you can take the boy outta aviation but...
Attended yesterday and it was a great showing.
When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of its momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing.
Sun Tzu
Yep but you are still on an aviation forum??????
I guess maybe then you still do give a crap because you can take the boy outta aviation but...
Attended yesterday and it was a great showing.
When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of its momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing.
Sun Tzu
I'd like to say a big thankyou to all whom attended. I work for onestar and am very impressed with my colleagues attendance and show if unity.
I'd also like to thank everyone else outside Jq who attended, your show of support really IS appreciated.
I'd also like to thank everyone else outside Jq who attended, your show of support really IS appreciated.
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as you plan this initiative.....
Take these conversations to a secure site and out of public view.
Hire a marketing company - it is easy to get caught up in the passion of this subject, however passion will be misconstrued for whinging by the general public. And you need the general public to get the attention of the lawmakers.
Full-time earnings in Australia averaged A$64,594 a year in the first quarter of 2010.
It will be terribly difficult to quantify back to a $64,594 wage earner, even with the low unemployment rate, why you are waging this war. And quantify it you must!
It will be even more difficult to outsmart the company.
You're good at flying aeroplanes. That skill set rarely translates into the ability to send out a message that the general public will understand and empathise with.
Take the emotion out of this and put it in a secure place and hire professionals to fight this fight. That is precisely what your competitors are doing.
Hire a marketing company - it is easy to get caught up in the passion of this subject, however passion will be misconstrued for whinging by the general public. And you need the general public to get the attention of the lawmakers.
Full-time earnings in Australia averaged A$64,594 a year in the first quarter of 2010.
It will be terribly difficult to quantify back to a $64,594 wage earner, even with the low unemployment rate, why you are waging this war. And quantify it you must!
It will be even more difficult to outsmart the company.
You're good at flying aeroplanes. That skill set rarely translates into the ability to send out a message that the general public will understand and empathise with.
Take the emotion out of this and put it in a secure place and hire professionals to fight this fight. That is precisely what your competitors are doing.
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Refusing to take on more than a minimum load of fuel, so that if there is an in-flight delay as a result of weather or air traffic, flights will have to be diverted;
''If a flight is delayed, he won't try to make up time in the air - it'll be steady as she goes.''
However, don't under-estimate the response of the entity you work for.
I am concerned, a collegue(s) less informed may be the fall guy/girl for the greater good of the pilot community.
A company will take action against any person(s) engaged in activities which don't align with the "Standards of Conduct" you were provided on initial employment.
What the meeting failed to address is what these obligations are & how a company views breaches of such obligations & more so what the company response will be.
Standards of Conduct is a different issue to Industrial Action & is determined by the employer.
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engaged in activities which don't align with the "Standards of Conduct" you were provided on initial employment.
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Full-time earnings in Australia averaged A$64,594 a year in the first quarter of 2010.
Now ask these questions
Do they do a medical each year in order to keep their job.
Do they do multiple training events.
Do they have a simulator assessment that requires a pass in order to keep their job.
Do they spend upwards of 50% of their employment away from home.
Do they work at any hours their employer requires.
Do they get rostered to work any day of the year.
There are a myriad of other issues we all know them.
There has to be a differentiation between what is reality and what is perception and to achieve this a professional PR company needs to be used... no questions.
It has to be done under one banner, all different the different representative groups under a united front.
The employers need to know that they have stretched the friendship so far that they have instead of splintering the pilot community they have raised union membership.
I can tell you right now that having had 350+ professional aircrew from all the carriers come together for a meeting will have sent a clear enough message to the operational management that the game has changed.
They will never admit it but I would bet you the CEO's bonus that there have been quite a few discussions and their own meetings to discuss this development that only a few short years ago would never have been possible.
STAND UNITED
DONT ACCEPT ANY OFFER TO GO TO SINGAPORE / NZ / anywhere else they think of...
DONT ANSWER THE PHONE ON DAYS OFF
REMAIN A PROFESSIONAL AND DO YOUR JOB TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY
(& watch their prized OTP disolve)
and believe you me, never discuss anything in a cockpit, the walls have ears..... and cvr's.
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response.......
Yep. I know office workers with no responsibility who earn this, 9-5, all public holidays off..... blah blah blah about 1920 hours of work...
Now ask these questions
Do they do a medical each year in order to keep their job.
Do they do multiple training events.
Do they have a simulator assessment that requires a pass in order to keep their job.
Do they spend upwards of 50% of their employment away from home.
Do they work at any hours their employer requires.
Do they get rostered to work any day of the year.
There are a myriad of other issues we all know them.
Now ask these questions
Do they do a medical each year in order to keep their job.
Do they do multiple training events.
Do they have a simulator assessment that requires a pass in order to keep their job.
Do they spend upwards of 50% of their employment away from home.
Do they work at any hours their employer requires.
Do they get rostered to work any day of the year.
There are a myriad of other issues we all know them.
right or wrong, pilots, as a work group, are perceived as having sexy jobs, going to exotic places, and i recognise you might find this hard to believe, live in cool houses and drive sexy cars - empathy man! and recognition! the majority of voters and the population cannot relate, and frankly don't care if 50% of your employment is away from home etc - you are perceived as elite.
your response is exactly why you need to take this conversation offline - vent your frustrations with other sexy pilots, not where it can be wrapped up to work against you.
hire a marketing firm.
and yes, it totally cracks me up to say sexy pilots lol.
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Actually prairiegirl RTFQ.....
This is the real point...
You need to look past your own perceptions as well. The only reason the perception propagates is because a very long time ago, post WW2, in the days when DC-3 reigned supreme pilots were a dime a dozen and the fledgling australian airlines needed people.
It was then at places like ANA and Butler that unions came along because the company needed the the most out of their crew and those pioneers stood up together and fought to achieve the T&Cs that were the basis of what became the golden era of Australian Airline aviation.
To this day, those that were well in the system before 21 years ago and those at mainline have generally done very well out of the system and propagated dream.
However the modern reality is different.
THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DISPELLED. BY A PROFESSIONAL
How about this for reality, at the meeting monday, I bumped into an old mate, we learnt to fly together two decades ago. I remember when he was flying a 1900 and the company that is now J* canned the program...... you know what he was offered..... oh you can become cabin crew and if a position becomes available you may get a shot at the 717...... blah blah blah.
Did that ever get publish, how about the glamor of that ?????
How about being new to the game, I know a young fella who was concerned over how he was going to survive living in Sydney where his prospective employer intended to base him. No how about a guy with a wife and family who needs to do the same.....
In this race to the bottom there is no way that the T&C's being offered are anywhere near "elite" to have to live in the rat race......
It is all PERCEPTION the PR depts of every operator right now are burning the midnight oil in order to portray their view of reality and say, "Oh those nasty pilots creating havoc in our "tough trading conditions" in a "high cost environment"....(etc) how dare they take offense at our T&C offers.......
Believe me they are working overtime to have any attack of their "perceived reality" defend by spin, barrage and blatant untruths.
Then they will trundle out someone saying how much we earn, someone who is on the highest pay grade and has no life so is willing to work days off and reserve and everything else to pay for his 3rd wife blah blah blah.....
THE ONLY LEVERAGE your particular union will have is knowing that the pilot body is fully behind them.
Whichever union is your union needs to know they have the full support of those that are in other unions in the same company.
This can only be achieved by your FULL SUPPORT and it would help that each individual group is brought under a group umbrella.
This will be the only way to stop the erosion of T&Cs, stop the flagging out of operations (ie JetConnect), stop the undermining of existing agreements by the Implied threat of sending jobs offshore.
Sure let them start a new company in Singapore, to fly the proposed expansion at lesser T&Cs...... as long as its 9V... and they can let anyone have a shot at it....
But if you want to be VH operated for your (the companies) benefit then its going to be on T&Cs that the company agreed to before.
Marketing sells J* as all Australian, ozzie owned and bread,pure blonds, with well feed anglo saxons in the front end fly to asia and europe with us,..... BECAUSE ITS WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS TO SEE.... ever see a Thai or Singaporean face on the add????? nah me neither but i have seen them in uniform at the airport when getting on the plane.
The support from the senior members of mainline was phenomenal because most of them see that J* and JitConnect are the begining of the end for any progression of mainline and the potential destruction of everything they have succeed in building....
DONT LET THEIR SPIN OF REALITY BE THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION
STAND UNITED
DONT ACCEPT ANY OFFER TO GO TO SINGAPORE / NZ / anywhere else they think of...
DONT ANSWER THE PHONE ON DAYS OFF
REMAIN A PROFESSIONAL AND DO YOUR JOB TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY
(no offense intended to well fed flight crew, i'm on my way there too...
)
There has to be a differentiation between what is reality and what is perception and to achieve this a professional PR company needs to be used... no questions.
You need to look past your own perceptions as well. The only reason the perception propagates is because a very long time ago, post WW2, in the days when DC-3 reigned supreme pilots were a dime a dozen and the fledgling australian airlines needed people.
It was then at places like ANA and Butler that unions came along because the company needed the the most out of their crew and those pioneers stood up together and fought to achieve the T&Cs that were the basis of what became the golden era of Australian Airline aviation.
To this day, those that were well in the system before 21 years ago and those at mainline have generally done very well out of the system and propagated dream.
However the modern reality is different.
THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DISPELLED. BY A PROFESSIONAL
How about this for reality, at the meeting monday, I bumped into an old mate, we learnt to fly together two decades ago. I remember when he was flying a 1900 and the company that is now J* canned the program...... you know what he was offered..... oh you can become cabin crew and if a position becomes available you may get a shot at the 717...... blah blah blah.
Did that ever get publish, how about the glamor of that ?????
How about being new to the game, I know a young fella who was concerned over how he was going to survive living in Sydney where his prospective employer intended to base him. No how about a guy with a wife and family who needs to do the same.....
In this race to the bottom there is no way that the T&C's being offered are anywhere near "elite" to have to live in the rat race......
It is all PERCEPTION the PR depts of every operator right now are burning the midnight oil in order to portray their view of reality and say, "Oh those nasty pilots creating havoc in our "tough trading conditions" in a "high cost environment"....(etc) how dare they take offense at our T&C offers.......
Believe me they are working overtime to have any attack of their "perceived reality" defend by spin, barrage and blatant untruths.
Then they will trundle out someone saying how much we earn, someone who is on the highest pay grade and has no life so is willing to work days off and reserve and everything else to pay for his 3rd wife blah blah blah.....
THE ONLY LEVERAGE your particular union will have is knowing that the pilot body is fully behind them.
Whichever union is your union needs to know they have the full support of those that are in other unions in the same company.
This can only be achieved by your FULL SUPPORT and it would help that each individual group is brought under a group umbrella.
This will be the only way to stop the erosion of T&Cs, stop the flagging out of operations (ie JetConnect), stop the undermining of existing agreements by the Implied threat of sending jobs offshore.
Sure let them start a new company in Singapore, to fly the proposed expansion at lesser T&Cs...... as long as its 9V... and they can let anyone have a shot at it....
But if you want to be VH operated for your (the companies) benefit then its going to be on T&Cs that the company agreed to before.
Marketing sells J* as all Australian, ozzie owned and bread,pure blonds, with well feed anglo saxons in the front end fly to asia and europe with us,..... BECAUSE ITS WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS TO SEE.... ever see a Thai or Singaporean face on the add????? nah me neither but i have seen them in uniform at the airport when getting on the plane.
The support from the senior members of mainline was phenomenal because most of them see that J* and JitConnect are the begining of the end for any progression of mainline and the potential destruction of everything they have succeed in building....
DONT LET THEIR SPIN OF REALITY BE THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION
STAND UNITED
DONT ACCEPT ANY OFFER TO GO TO SINGAPORE / NZ / anywhere else they think of...
DONT ANSWER THE PHONE ON DAYS OFF
REMAIN A PROFESSIONAL AND DO YOUR JOB TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY
(no offense intended to well fed flight crew, i'm on my way there too...
)
Last edited by international hog driver; 24th Aug 2010 at 21:49.
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hoggie, but darlin' i read the f*ing quote......
no need to explain to me the lack of glamour..... trust me on this one. zero misconceptions on what the job entails on this end.
hire the pr firm.
stop writing 'see how tough i have it' posts on pprune that the media will distort and the public cannot relate to. it will be the downfall of all the pilots hard work and commitment to this plan.
hire the pr firm.
stop writing 'see how tough i have it' posts on pprune that the media will distort and the public cannot relate to. it will be the downfall of all the pilots hard work and commitment to this plan.
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Do they do a medical each year in order to keep their job.
Do they do multiple training events.
Do they have a simulator assessment that requires a pass in order to keep their job.
Do they spend upwards of 50% of their employment away from home.
Do they work at any hours their employer requires.
Do they get rostered to work any day of the year?
Do they have to work behind a bullet proof door for the saftey of the public?
Are they subject to radiation for long periods of their career?
Are they subject to toxins from their airconditioning systems?
Are they subjected to random drug and alcohol tests?
Are they subject to daily security checks whilst being required to hold an ASIC?
Do they have to manage a crew of 3 to 25 employees in an pressurised aluminium tube travelling at close to the speed of sound at 40000 feet over vaste oceans and polar regions, through international airspace subject to weather events relying on a mechanical miracle worth hundreds of millions of dollars and with the companies existance at stake with up to 450 fare paying passsengers with families waiting at home for their safe passage?
We do need a PR company to represent us because that is not our skill set.
Do they do multiple training events.
Do they have a simulator assessment that requires a pass in order to keep their job.
Do they spend upwards of 50% of their employment away from home.
Do they work at any hours their employer requires.
Do they get rostered to work any day of the year?
Do they have to work behind a bullet proof door for the saftey of the public?
Are they subject to radiation for long periods of their career?
Are they subject to toxins from their airconditioning systems?
Are they subjected to random drug and alcohol tests?
Are they subject to daily security checks whilst being required to hold an ASIC?
Do they have to manage a crew of 3 to 25 employees in an pressurised aluminium tube travelling at close to the speed of sound at 40000 feet over vaste oceans and polar regions, through international airspace subject to weather events relying on a mechanical miracle worth hundreds of millions of dollars and with the companies existance at stake with up to 450 fare paying passsengers with families waiting at home for their safe passage?
We do need a PR company to represent us because that is not our skill set.
prariegirl was right on when she said:
(Others have said it earlier too, I'm pretty sure.)
Now, I was still in school in '89 and without wanting to bring that up, I have to because it's part of a point I'd like to make...
I remember 21 years ago standing at the bus stop, reading a piece of A4 paper that someone had pasted to a telephone pole. It was titled: "What the pilots are fighting against" and listed a whole host of stuff that meant nothing to me at the time - I was just a school kid! But I saw a lot of other, older people reading it too.
Predominately (also as others have mentioned here), the general public has a perception of the industry that is closer to Alice in Wonderland than Reality - I'm sure you'd agree!
How about a campaign to raise awareness of some of the "other" stuff?
GA awards lower than average wage in this country (some so low they are almost unliveable)
Operators constantly testing out "what they can get away with" - and who is ultimately responsible? The PIC...
PICs nearly a "de-facto" regulator, due to CASA's poor performance in many areas
Loss of medical on any number of possible reasons = career over
Now, primarily BYO endoresement
Finally - companies are not satisfied with all that, they now want to send your job overseas, to get the labour cheaper
I'm sure you all have other points to add here.
And has anyone sent any letters to their MPs or union yet? I'm seriously interested in feedback. Breakfastburrito penned a good "action plan" to follow on from the meeting, are we following it?!
Victor Two
Geez, glass (more than) half empty mate!! So you opted out and reckon that was a good move - glad it worked for you... Your reasons are probably personal but not really relevant to us here. Anyone who has been in this game for more than a minute has probably considered doing that too. But we're still here, and want to make the best of it. I would say that people generally just want a fair go, and are happy enough if they get it. They don't then go out hunting for more. (Company CEOs might be an exception)
Can we "win" - or change anything? I really don't know, and neither do you. You can postulate or whatever, sure. But that's pretty irrelevant too.
I do know this -
I'd rather do as much as I can now, and accept the result knowing that I had a crack, than put it all in the too hard basket, accept whatever happens (or be forced out of the game), and never know what we might have been able to influence or change.
CR.
Take the emotion out of this and put it in a secure place and hire professionals to fight this fight. That is precisely what your competitors are doing
Now, I was still in school in '89 and without wanting to bring that up, I have to because it's part of a point I'd like to make...
I remember 21 years ago standing at the bus stop, reading a piece of A4 paper that someone had pasted to a telephone pole. It was titled: "What the pilots are fighting against" and listed a whole host of stuff that meant nothing to me at the time - I was just a school kid! But I saw a lot of other, older people reading it too.
Predominately (also as others have mentioned here), the general public has a perception of the industry that is closer to Alice in Wonderland than Reality - I'm sure you'd agree!
How about a campaign to raise awareness of some of the "other" stuff?
GA awards lower than average wage in this country (some so low they are almost unliveable)
Operators constantly testing out "what they can get away with" - and who is ultimately responsible? The PIC...
PICs nearly a "de-facto" regulator, due to CASA's poor performance in many areas
Loss of medical on any number of possible reasons = career over
Now, primarily BYO endoresement
Finally - companies are not satisfied with all that, they now want to send your job overseas, to get the labour cheaper
I'm sure you all have other points to add here.
And has anyone sent any letters to their MPs or union yet? I'm seriously interested in feedback. Breakfastburrito penned a good "action plan" to follow on from the meeting, are we following it?!
Victor Two
Geez, glass (more than) half empty mate!! So you opted out and reckon that was a good move - glad it worked for you... Your reasons are probably personal but not really relevant to us here. Anyone who has been in this game for more than a minute has probably considered doing that too. But we're still here, and want to make the best of it. I would say that people generally just want a fair go, and are happy enough if they get it. They don't then go out hunting for more. (Company CEOs might be an exception)
Can we "win" - or change anything? I really don't know, and neither do you. You can postulate or whatever, sure. But that's pretty irrelevant too.
I do know this -
I'd rather do as much as I can now, and accept the result knowing that I had a crack, than put it all in the too hard basket, accept whatever happens (or be forced out of the game), and never know what we might have been able to influence or change.
CR.
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Geez -438, I have forgotten how good I was, being just a glorified bus driver (as Mr. Robert Lee Hawke assured me as such) my ego was all dented, and as for glamour, what glamour, as you all know, there is nothing like a 0415 wake up call, (especially after a sleepless night solving the worlds problems) then there is the crew meals, designed to put you into the cardiac ward sooner than expected, to say nothing of always being away for hatches, matches and dispatches, (and ever in the sh$t for it) But on the serious side, yes the companies will play this line, in fact I suggest you get a copy of the 89 debarcle, and you will probably see the same old porkies being brought out now, as was then, and be ready for them. You really do need a good PR person/s something we did not have, and it could have meant a difference, because the public were happy to believe Hawke and Abeles, (the tall poppy syndrome is alive and well in this country) and the overpaid and over indulged spin will be played over and over again as it will be repeated with you people.
Hmmm. Doesn't take long before you lot start attacking eachother. All the operators must be shaking in their boots!
Stop posting crap on a public forum, it's useless. Just hire the professionals. They'll win it for you!
Keep the pilots out of the lime light, you are the "good guys" Right?? Let the PR pro's take over. You catch more fly's with honey!
Good luck
Stop posting crap on a public forum, it's useless. Just hire the professionals. They'll win it for you!
Keep the pilots out of the lime light, you are the "good guys" Right?? Let the PR pro's take over. You catch more fly's with honey!
Good luck
Last edited by TriJetFlying; 25th Aug 2010 at 12:38.
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Just don't use any PR firms from the likes of Boston Consulting , Freehills, Oldmeadow Consulting, or any other firm beholdant to large Multinational Corporates!
