Jetstar Hiring.... Cadets?!?!

[Jerr]

Will Cadets end up as CFO

Jetstar are already planning routes into Europe via Singapore. I suspect that some of the cadets will end up as CFO - Cruise First Officers aka QF Second Officers, but on a lot less pay.

Interesting times ahead

JERR

[GADRIVR]

Funny isn't it......... sounds just like a Qantas program... but cheaper overall!!
Am I detecting a trend here??
Yet another example of 1989 residuals biting the pilot body on it's collective arse!
So is the Jetstar pilot committee going to have a whine about this?
Probably not.
Are the Qantas boys and girls gonna say something? Nah... too busy shoring up what they've got and what they'll get over the next few years before the gravy train comes to a grinding halt!
Great industry

[Kral]

Ok so we all know that as an industry aviation isn't the best at looking after its front line, but seriously this is getting beyond a joke. I am always amazed at baby boomers getting out the old "lets blame genY" joke of an argument. lets see how that holds up with your armchair economics guys. Seriously get your hand off it.

I have a bachelors degree in business and a masters degree in IT, I PAID for all of my studies. I PAID for all of my IT courses. I have seen no loyalty from my employers, and while I left work at 7pm this evening after 12hrs to pick up an aviation text book I get rewarded for my quals and hard work. yes thats right baby boomers HARD WORK. On top of that I get respect in my current industry.

These cadet courses might be the future of aviation, they are expensive in an expensive industry but the key to making aviation a long term prospect is TO SUPPORT YOUR COLLEAGUES! I sure as have never had that level of disrespect in IT. There are multiple pathways into most industries and this is another pathway that the industry is creating to enhance the mix. If it doesn't work it will eventually get scrapped (along with a lot of good money from people who can't afford it) However there is no need to act like a pack of hungry wolves. I fly because I want something different, and if I end up RHS of a jet and I look like getting screwed over right proper I will go straight back to an industry that treats me with respect.

YOU do this to yourselves.

The bottom end of all industries are not fun, but that doesn't mean treating cadets with a complete lack of respect, contempt and disdain. Grow up.

[404 Titan]

holdmetight

Successful cadets will have done in 100 weeks, what GA drivers will have taken twice that long to do...

You are making the assumption that all GA pilots do their training part-time. This is a false assumption. A fulltime course can be done comfortably in the same time as any cadet course and many do it this way. Infact many do their training at the same schools that run cadet courses.

[Tankengine]

404, I see holdmetight's idea as being that after 100 weeks they may see a job at jetstar, do you know anybody who has got into a Jet from nix in 100 weeks?
I spent 7 years in GA, the least time I know of personally is about 4 years.

[holdmetight]

404 Titan

You are making the assumption that all GA pilots do their training part-time. This is a false assumption.

Thanks for the heads-up, I see where you're coming from. My current flying instructor did his training full-time as well, so I don't doubt what you have said.

The main point I've been saying is that a cadet who took 100 weeks to get from their TIF to the RHS of an A320 would be equally competent as a Direct Entry guy who flew in GA for 7 years, then went into the RHS. As you would expect, even though they are both equally competent at their job as an F/O, the profile of a cadet and a GA veteran would be vastly different.

[404 Titan]

Tankengine

Not in Australia but in Europe and the US I’ve seen it. Mind you the US has just changed the law after the Colgan Airline Buffalo accident to now requiring 800 hours command before slipping into the right hand seat of a regional. The regulators wanted 1500 hours but lobbying from the airlines resulted in it being watered down.

[shortshortz]

Jerr
There isn't a CFO position in the current EBA. There is the Junior FO role and maybe they could be displaced into J* NZ as an FO

[MrSheffield]

Only 21 and STILL in G.A?

He could be any age, you'll just be old AND a still complete w^nker

sumtingwong - he displays his age as 21 under his username. w^nker

[Gas Bags]

Cypher,

No windup intended....It is fact.....If you screw up so badly in the RHS the Captain should take over. If the Captain does not do that then both pilots have screwed up royally. That theoretically should never happen in RPT. Training and in particular repetitive action dictates so. The QRH determines what to do in most if not all circumstances and if not followed verbatim that then leaves the pilots in for tea and bickies. Follow the training and the manuals and you would be a very unlucky RPT pilot to experience anything close to a fatality, which does not compare to a medical professional who holds life and death in their hands every day, if not every hour of every shift. Do not make the profession out to be something it is not.


Sumtingwrong,

Again the training that goes on does not allow things to go wrong unless the pilot does something he is trained not to do (And this should never happen in RPT). Light comes on, open book, follow instructions. Not rocket science. When everything goes pair shaped that is when the money is earned, and as far as fatalities go that is very rare. For example with the right training my mum could listen and obey a TCAS warning (provided she had the prerequrisite flying skills) and she would avoid what could be called a potential disaster)....This is what training and procedures are all about.

The doctor that receives an unconcious patient in the emergency ward has no such QRH to follow.....He has to determine what is wrong and how to deal with it in order to save a life. This happens day in and day out for a lot of medical professionals.

How many times in a professional RPT pilots career would they honestly say to themselves that the situation they found themselves in and the actions they took outside of their repetitive training was what saved hundreds of lives.

Again....Back down to earth fellas......This is why the profession is regulated the way it is and the oversight is the way it is, and this is why tens of thousands of aircraft take to the skies every day with very few RPT fatalities......

In the event of a mechanical failure then I agree the flying skill and experience come into play big time, however this is more than extremely rare and to insinuate that this kind of skill is required for RPT pilots is what the real wind up is.

[sumtingwong]

"Again the training that goes on does not allow things to go wrong unless the pilot does something he is trained not to do (And this should never happen in RPT). Light comes on, open book, follow instructions. Not rocket science. When everything goes pair shaped that is when the money is earned, and as far as fatalities go that is very rare. For example with the right training my mum could listen and obey a TCAS warning (provided she had the prerequrisite flying skills) and she would avoid what could be called a potential disaster)....This is what training and procedures are all about.

The doctor that receives an unconcious patient in the emergency ward has no such QRH to follow.....He has to determine what is wrong and how to deal with it in order to save a life. This happens day in and day out for a lot of medical professionals."

Bollox you muppet.

....Jeez. Why waste my time, but after 5 years in Aeromedical, and married to a doctor; Doctors most absolutely have a QRH or protocols to follow. Same ****e different name. If and IF it goes pear shaped, they have PEER SUPPORT or at least a decent union who will look after them. Heard of the AMA, MDA? Who outside of aviation has heard of AIPA. (even most GA pilots would no know who AFAP is...and really, who can blame them)

Just quietly and no judgements here but to prove a point. How many doctors went after Jay ant Patel of Rockhampton hospital infamy (allegedly) ? How many pilots went after Dom James (of Norfolk alleged infamy)? I'm not defending or advocating the actions of either, merely pointing out the disparity. Why do we eat our own? Oh, and Patel's alleged negligence was some years ago now. Norfolk was what....9 months?

[Gas Bags]

Sumtingwong....I think you have msttepoynt!!!!

[drop bear ten]

Suffice to say that there is one thing that nobody can buy:

EXPERIENCE

And at times that is the thing that makes the difference.

[KRUSTY 34]

I dunno' Gas Bags, I think it's you that may have "msttepoynt", or whatever that is shorthand for?

Quote:

"Again the training that goes on does not allow things to go wrong unless the pilot does something he is trained not to do (and this should never happen in RPT)"

You ask Cypher to come "back to Earth". Maybe you should consider doing the same!

[Cirronimbus]

There seems to be two issues with cadet schemes. Some people seem to feel that cadets that graduate from these schemes lack suitable experience (if that is the case, why aren't you as equally concerned about cadets who graduate from military training?) and others see the schemes as ways for operators to reduce Conditions of Service.

I think it is the reduction of CoS that is the real issue. It isn't just happening in aviation but in other walks of life too. A friend of mine worked as a "volunteer" (to get experience) for 6 months (Mon-Fri 9 to 5) to get a $45k a year job. I had the same opportunity but objected to work for free. He is employed and I am not. I can't blame anyone for taking opportunities like that (or the cadet scheme) if they want to. However, the companies that take advantage of people (who work for free or "buy" their own jobs) would be the problem. Surely there is some legislation somewhere that prevents workers (or cadets) being taken advantage of like this? If not, why not?

[kmagyoyo]

if that is the case, why aren't you as equally concerned about cadets who graduate from military training?

Your obviously oblivious to the Military and the training its Pilots go through. Suffice to say when an Ex-Military Pilot is in a position to leave he or she has served at least 10 years, has a couple of thousands of hours flying some of the most challenging roles in aviation throughout the World. Your trying to compare that with a 200 hour circuit basher?

[holdmetight]

if that is the case, why aren't you as equally concerned about cadets who graduate from military training

I think what he means is if we are worried about fresh civilian cadets not having enough experience when moving to the RHS of an RPT, then why don't we worry about fresh military cadets not having enough experience when moving up to an army/air force aircraft.

[Keg]

Whilst I don't have first hand experience of the military system, I'd also suggest that the supervision that the Bloggs is under when they get type rated and into a SQN is far more stringent than a Bloggs who has been cleared to the line in the RHS of an RPT jet.

[Cypher]

Gas Bags, I have to disagree...

If you screw up so badly in the RHS the Captain should take over. If the Captain does not do that then both pilots have screwed up royally.

Yes, and equally, if the Captain screws up the F.O should take over....

Training and in particular repetitive action dictates so. The QRH determines what to do in most if not all circumstances and if not followed verbatim that then leaves the pilots in for tea and bickies. Follow the training and the manuals and you would be a very unlucky RPT pilot to experience anything close to a fatality, which does not compare to a medical professional who holds life and death in their hands every day, if not every hour of every shift.

Training and particular repetitive action only accounts for a small amount of managing a non-normal situation overall.

You could say the same of medical professionals, a patient isn't breathing, A primary assessment is done, Airways, Breathing, Circulation, CPR and resuscitation procedures are started automatically as a response. A secondary assessment is then carried out once the primary is complete.

A engine fails at over the Pacific, the nearest landfall is 2 hours away and your in a 737 NG. Calls are made, failures are identified and non-normal checklists reference items (sorry memory items now) are conducted.

The patient is now breathing however not conscious. Agreed, there is no QRH for the human body. However we can take B.P, pulse, S02, medical history if one exists for the patient, etc. Yes, the doctor then has to determine what has happened for the patient to end up in this state if the reason isn't obvious and whether this will heal normally and continuing monitoring or further medical intervention is required. Decisions have to be made.

The QRH reference items are complete. The aircraft is in a steady state, all drills and checklists have been completed. The QRH states what the condition is that the checklist is for. As aircrew you have to ensure that the correct checklist is followed for the state the aircraft is in. We have oil pressure, N1, N2, oil temperature, fuel temperature, the tech log etc. what caused the engine to fail and should we attempt a restart? Where should we divert to? The nearest airfield has a short 1500 m runway however 30 minutes on from that is a 2000 m runway.. The QRH states, "Land at the nearest suitable airport".. however that is a loaded statement and calls for judgement on part of the flight crew. Decisions have to be made.

QRHs only take you so far. Once they are completed, they leave it up to the judgement of the aircrew and ultimately the captain to determine the safest course of action.

While every attempt is made to supply needed non-normal checklists, it is not possible to develop checklists for all conceivable situations.
Boeing Non-Normal Checklist Operation CI.2.1 B737NG

In multiple failure situations, the flight crew may need to combine the elements of more than one checklist. In all situations, the captain must assess the situation and use good judgement to determine the safest course of action.
Boeing Non-Normal Checklist Operation CI.2.1 B737NG

Doctors have drugs, aircrew have QRHs. Both drugs and QRHs you could say address a symptom/condition and treat it.

It is up to the doctor to monitor the patient to ensure that the drug is having the desired effect and addressing the symptom. And if it is not working or making the situation worse, discontinue the treatment and determine alternative action.

It is up to the aircrew to monitor the situation and ensure the QRH is having the desired effect and addressing the situation at hand. And if it is not working or making the situation worse, discontinue the checklist and determine alternative action.

It is up to the individual human, be in Doctor or Pilot to use his judgement and experience to decide how to return a non-normal situation to a normal state and choose the correct tool (drug/QRH) to achieve an outcome which achieves that. Then to continue monitoring the situation to ensure that it does not get worse until the desired outcome is achieved, an alive and happy patient, or a safe landing.

I would say that similar skills of deduction, judgement, reasoning and research are needed in both professions.

Checklists are not followed verbatim, they are combined, and used in conjunction with previous crew experience, resources from the ground, cabin and crew judgement. They are not a blind stab in the dark, fix it all. In fact use of the inappropriate checklist will make a bad situation worse.
Manuals just give you the information to use in which to make your judgement. The captain at any time can override any regulation or rule if in his/her judgement that is warranted to ensure a safe outcome.

Again the training that goes on does not allow things to go wrong unless the pilot does something he is trained not to do (And this should never happen in RPT). Light comes on, open book, follow instructions. Not rocket science. When everything goes pair shaped that is when the money is earned, and as far as fatalities go that is very rare. For example with the right training my mum could listen and obey a TCAS warning (provided she had the prerequrisite flying skills) and she would avoid what could be called a potential disaster)....This is what training and procedures are all about.

What if something outside the QRH occurs?

Again the training that goes on does not allow things to go wrong unless the pilot does something he is trained not to do (And this should never happen in RPT).

United 232 was a DC-10 that had the centre engine fan disk disintegrate leaving the aircraft with no hydraulics and no means to fly the aircraft. No QRH checklist was written for that situation because it was determined that such a situation was impossible. They had to relearn to fly the aircraft in order to make an attempt at landing. It was unfortunate that there were fatalities, however people survived thanks to the judgement and actions of the crew.
Lights came on, open book, no checklist found.

Do not make the profession out to be something it is not.

I never did. I used Doctors as an example of an professional. I never said pilots are doctors, doctors are pilots or pilot/doctors. I asked "How many doctors just do it because they "love it"....?"

My argument is that pilots are professionals, and doctors are professionals.
Infact it appears you agree with the statement.

[Fly-by-Desire]

Sounds like someones been playing too much Flight Sim X, I thought I recoignised that scenario