Jetstar Hiring.... Cadets?!?!
Slasher I understand your story quite well and the fact that people want to give you hell about is just re-enforcing the attitude of Gen Y. A soft bunch of cadets with no life experience crying foul. 
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If your condidering the cadetship, ask where you will be based.
"We have no plans of basing you in other than Australian Domestic ports or we have no intention of basing you in Singapore", means absolutely nothing.
Then ask them to put it in writing, unless of course you don't mind living in Singapore, Vietnam or some other location of Jetstars choice.
If they aren't prepared to put it in writing, be careful. It means they want you to remain as flexible as possible.
MC
"We have no plans of basing you in other than Australian Domestic ports or we have no intention of basing you in Singapore", means absolutely nothing.
Then ask them to put it in writing, unless of course you don't mind living in Singapore, Vietnam or some other location of Jetstars choice.
If they aren't prepared to put it in writing, be careful. It means they want you to remain as flexible as possible.
MC
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Great post Slasher made me feel really good that there are people like you out their calling yourselves professional pilots. There should never be a need for violence in aviation, you just demonstrated how your mate could not handle his misfortune in in a more appropriate gentleman-like manner. The fact that you sounded so proud telling that story make you a complete tool.
Perhaps your mate just wasn't up to scratch?
Perhaps your mate just wasn't up to scratch?
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"...but a cadet with 400 hours in a A320!?!??"
um? Don't all cadets and other "learner drivers" start off in single engine light aircraft and work their way up? Get their hours and THEN go on and get the type rating afterwards?
Whether the "cadet" is civilian or military and then graduates onto jets; the "experience" they have hour-wise is pretty much the same.
I think there might be a bit of jealousy out there among some of those who aren't happy about newbies graduating straight into the front end of a jet after training (military or civilian). Either you're good enough to get a military "scholarship" or else you fork out the $ and pay your own way; you have a choice.
The erosion of Terms and Conditions that might result from "cadets" paying for jobs is the real problem. Not the perceived lack of "experience" of the low-hour jet pilot (is there any difference between the newly graduated military cadet in the F18 or the newly graduated cadet in the A320?). If a percieved lack of experience was really the problem, I would think there would be massive insurance type issues to be considered by the employers of "cadet scheme" pilots. (Oops, he crashed the F18 because he lacked experience; he should have gone the GA route before he flew a jet......?????). If the military think it is ok for a raw "cadet" to do the training and graduate onto a jet; it is probably ok. I expect the training a cadet (for an airline) would be similarly intensive and by the time the cadet graduates; he/she would ready to fly that particular aeroplane. I can't imagine a major company taking what would be an enormous risk otherwise; perhaps I'm wrong?
If the erosion of Terms and Conditions isn't being addressed by those affected, then that would be your own fault wouldn't it? I don't advocate "cadet schemes" but I would think that if it was wrong, it would be a matter for a "union" of pilots to take up. Is anyone out there doing that?
It is the "paying for a job" that is the problem (not the percieved lack of experience). If the authorities (CASA etc) don't have a problem with "cadets" as pilots in RPT aircraft; then maybe there needs to be a lobby group (union) that puts a GOOD argument forward to prevent these schemes going ahead and therefore, ultimately destroying Terms and Conditions for everyone else?
um? Don't all cadets and other "learner drivers" start off in single engine light aircraft and work their way up? Get their hours and THEN go on and get the type rating afterwards?
Whether the "cadet" is civilian or military and then graduates onto jets; the "experience" they have hour-wise is pretty much the same.
I think there might be a bit of jealousy out there among some of those who aren't happy about newbies graduating straight into the front end of a jet after training (military or civilian). Either you're good enough to get a military "scholarship" or else you fork out the $ and pay your own way; you have a choice.
The erosion of Terms and Conditions that might result from "cadets" paying for jobs is the real problem. Not the perceived lack of "experience" of the low-hour jet pilot (is there any difference between the newly graduated military cadet in the F18 or the newly graduated cadet in the A320?). If a percieved lack of experience was really the problem, I would think there would be massive insurance type issues to be considered by the employers of "cadet scheme" pilots. (Oops, he crashed the F18 because he lacked experience; he should have gone the GA route before he flew a jet......?????). If the military think it is ok for a raw "cadet" to do the training and graduate onto a jet; it is probably ok. I expect the training a cadet (for an airline) would be similarly intensive and by the time the cadet graduates; he/she would ready to fly that particular aeroplane. I can't imagine a major company taking what would be an enormous risk otherwise; perhaps I'm wrong?
If the erosion of Terms and Conditions isn't being addressed by those affected, then that would be your own fault wouldn't it? I don't advocate "cadet schemes" but I would think that if it was wrong, it would be a matter for a "union" of pilots to take up. Is anyone out there doing that?
It is the "paying for a job" that is the problem (not the percieved lack of experience). If the authorities (CASA etc) don't have a problem with "cadets" as pilots in RPT aircraft; then maybe there needs to be a lobby group (union) that puts a GOOD argument forward to prevent these schemes going ahead and therefore, ultimately destroying Terms and Conditions for everyone else?
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Slasher, your mate sounds like nothing more than a beer drinking thug...
Your generation stood up for themselves did they? Why would your mate after punching out some kid for undercutting his salary run back to the the employer who did the dirty on him in the first place and ask for the job back? One would think that being part of your generation who 'stood up for themselves' he would have told the employer to get stuffed and perhaps should have directed the punch to him, someone his own generation...your mate sounds a bit scabby....and which gen was responsible for that?
Your generation stood up for themselves did they? Why would your mate after punching out some kid for undercutting his salary run back to the the employer who did the dirty on him in the first place and ask for the job back? One would think that being part of your generation who 'stood up for themselves' he would have told the employer to get stuffed and perhaps should have directed the punch to him, someone his own generation...your mate sounds a bit scabby....and which gen was responsible for that?
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If a percieved lack of experience was really the problem, I would think there would be massive insurance type issues to be considered by the employers of "cadet scheme" pilots.
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I'm currently learning to fly at BK and I'm looking forward to chucking all my sh1t in the car when I'm done and heading north to the stinking effing hot to look for some work, not lounging around in some air-conditioned Hong Kong hotel room waiting for my next sim session so I can tell all my friends I fly da shiny jets for about 40k pa.
Harry Hardman
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Slasher, your mate sounds like nothing more than a beer drinking thug...
Yep and a damn lovable bastard too. Lost track of him about
15 years back but after ringing around just now I heard hes
somewhere in the ME maybe EK or Etihad. I should look him
up!
Yep and a damn lovable bastard too. Lost track of him about
15 years back but after ringing around just now I heard hes
somewhere in the ME maybe EK or Etihad. I should look him
up!
I fly with cadets in the RHS of Airbus with a few hundred hours. An unnecessary risk in my opinion. One day they may be up to the task. But for a considerable period of time they are carried.
When I worked in Australia I never heard of a Captain taking over from an FO. With cadets its commonplace. Low level GA's, hard landings. And when things out of the ordinary, the multi-crew concept is a fallacy. You have a lonely, on your own feeling.
There is no reason this should be done in Australia.
We will see the minimum wage airline pilot in our generation. Who would have thought?
When I worked in Australia I never heard of a Captain taking over from an FO. With cadets its commonplace. Low level GA's, hard landings. And when things out of the ordinary, the multi-crew concept is a fallacy. You have a lonely, on your own feeling.
There is no reason this should be done in Australia.
We will see the minimum wage airline pilot in our generation. Who would have thought?
Im a bit sick of threads being closed. If you arn't interested in it don't read it. Let natural selection take its course and it will disappear by itself when people lose interest. As long as nothing illegal or slanderous is being done what's it hurting?
As for the cadetship, I agree that when it comes to experience it's not so much an issue of how good you can physically fly the thing (although in an emergency it would help...Sully) but more about the mentality of someone who has done it all before vs someone who hasn't. For those of us who have been in the industry (GA) a few years, all you have to do is think back to when you had clocked up 200hrs and you'll realise how much you actually didn't know then.
Its just sad purely from a T&C point of view.
As for the cadetship, I agree that when it comes to experience it's not so much an issue of how good you can physically fly the thing (although in an emergency it would help...Sully) but more about the mentality of someone who has done it all before vs someone who hasn't. For those of us who have been in the industry (GA) a few years, all you have to do is think back to when you had clocked up 200hrs and you'll realise how much you actually didn't know then.
Its just sad purely from a T&C point of view.
Yeah I agree. How do you compare the role, the training, and the supervision of a RAAF single seat fighter pilot to a low cost cadet?
Can't be done.
Millions invested in training versus a hundred thousand to produce a CAA minimum standard, checklist reader. Who, maybe through dedicated self-improvement, will come up to a good standard eventually.
Can't be done.
Millions invested in training versus a hundred thousand to produce a CAA minimum standard, checklist reader. Who, maybe through dedicated self-improvement, will come up to a good standard eventually.
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I've been around a while and flown with many F/O's on Boeing and Airbus aircraft with experience ranging from a few hundred hours to 10,000 +. Some have Military experience while most were G/A.
So who makes the best F/O in a complex aircraft like the A320? Of course that is a question that can't be answered because every pilot of every experience level is an individual with varying levels of skill ,motivation ,competence ,level of knowledge etc.
The fact is though that age and experience alone don't necessarily make a good F/O and eventually a good Captain. Some of the best and most knowledgeable F/O's I've flown with are younger 'in-experienced' guys who however are really keen to learn and most importantly really want to be in that RH seat. They'd love more money and would have been happy to have the company pay for training but in the end they just want to be doing what they're doing and realize that even a company like JS is not exactly poverty line stuff and in the end leads to pretty acceptable pay and conditions by the rest of OZ workers standards. Despite all the claptrap about low pay you'll still be in the top 10% of Australian wage earners even with JS.
As an aside I've also flown with some amazing ex-Military blokes too who in general have the same characteristic of rarely talking about the military unless asked and are keen to learn the ropes of Airline flying.They also stuff up on occassion just like anyone else and will openly admit same .
So for those G/A pilotsconsidering any avenue at all including Cadetships to get in the Right seat of an A320 and if that's what you really want then go all out for it NOW !
So who makes the best F/O in a complex aircraft like the A320? Of course that is a question that can't be answered because every pilot of every experience level is an individual with varying levels of skill ,motivation ,competence ,level of knowledge etc.
The fact is though that age and experience alone don't necessarily make a good F/O and eventually a good Captain. Some of the best and most knowledgeable F/O's I've flown with are younger 'in-experienced' guys who however are really keen to learn and most importantly really want to be in that RH seat. They'd love more money and would have been happy to have the company pay for training but in the end they just want to be doing what they're doing and realize that even a company like JS is not exactly poverty line stuff and in the end leads to pretty acceptable pay and conditions by the rest of OZ workers standards. Despite all the claptrap about low pay you'll still be in the top 10% of Australian wage earners even with JS.
As an aside I've also flown with some amazing ex-Military blokes too who in general have the same characteristic of rarely talking about the military unless asked and are keen to learn the ropes of Airline flying.They also stuff up on occassion just like anyone else and will openly admit same .
So for those G/A pilots
considering any avenue at all including Cadetships to get in the Right seat of an A320 and if that's what you really want then go all out for it NOW !
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without stirring too much, I'd have to say reading this thread over the past few days has been entertaining..shoulda grabbed some popcorn! 
My gosh, there's a lot of resentment flying around.
Anyway, with all the hype on Jetstar...Q'link have just restarted their cadet program which is good - looks like there's 3 intakes this year with 2011 to be reviewed. No announcement, nothing....just sorta slipped that one in there. Oh and QF are meant to announce whats happening with their cadet program by 31 July. I'm sure that'll probably create another 10 pager.
My gosh, there's a lot of resentment flying around.Anyway, with all the hype on Jetstar...Q'link have just restarted their cadet program which is good - looks like there's 3 intakes this year with 2011 to be reviewed. No announcement, nothing....just sorta slipped that one in there. Oh and QF are meant to announce whats happening with their cadet program by 31 July. I'm sure that'll probably create another 10 pager.
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Looks like qlink are doing the same thing charging a disgusting 18k upfront, then no doubt bonding endorsement costs. Industry makes me 
.
How can link take trainees if there are plenty of d/e folks and not to mention the 100's of QF cadets waiting for industry placement in link? Makes you think if you went through with link you would be waiting a long time for a slot. Unless of course they are no longer interested in the QF cadets.
. How can link take trainees if there are plenty of d/e folks and not to mention the 100's of QF cadets waiting for industry placement in link? Makes you think if you went through with link you would be waiting a long time for a slot. Unless of course they are no longer interested in the QF cadets.
The concept of cadets flying airliners is fine in concept - the military have been taking kids off the street, training them and then sending them out in fighter airplanes with only a few hundred hours for years. The military, though, do three things that no airline cadet scheme that I have seen does (well):
1. Conducts thorough aptitude testing to determine if the trainee will assimilate the required level of learning at the required rate;
2. Invests millions of dollars into their training - not just as a pilot, but as a person - with the intent of making said trainee mature enough to cope with the demands of the role;
3. Conducts the training from start to finish in-house (or by a contractor company with military oversight) to a very standardised programme essentially guaranteeing a known product. Candidates who at any time fall below the learning curve are "scrubbed" not offered another go based on funding some extra training themselves.
Unfortunately, from what I have observed, the selection process for airline cadet programmes tends to be based heavily on how strong the bank account is that is funding the training...
There is no reason why a good training programme for cadets, funded properly (ie by the Company in order to guarantee quality), cannot produce a competent A320 F/O which should not require much more than guidance and mentoring from the Captain. In flight take-overs (as outlined above) from skippers should be extremely rare.
The thing I find interesting, though, is that the rise of these schemes may cause airline flying (in the flavour of QF / VB / J*) to no longer be the "pinnacle" of civilian flying, rather it may become a separate and independant discipline that is normally entered at the very start of the career. As has already been stated elsewhere here - flying heavy airliners is a different kettle of fish to flying light twins single pilot IFR in GA, turbo-props in regional aviation or helos in the military. The skill set for each, although related, is different enough to have a wannabe pilot perhaps "pick a path" at the commencement of their career - GA becoming instructor, or GA becoming regional aviation in turbo-props, or military, or airlines. The traditional path of GA - GA slightly bigger - GA even more slightly bigger - airlines is becoming less distinct (and relevant) nowadays. The concept of becoming a master of one trade, not a jack of all, I think is becoming important in today's very diverse aviation industry.
How's this - the technology and reliability of modern airliners goes a long way to mitigate the requirement for experience garnered in "raw" flying skills, problems encountered in these aircraft would be best dealt with by adequate management of systems and redundancies, plus co-ordination of the crew as opposed to what many refer to as "stick and rudder" skills. A cadet, after 10-15 years at the very least in the RHS, I reckon would have gained enough experience by their participation and mentoring from Captains to be able to be considered for a command without too many problems. The fact that they have been exposed to it all this time would mean that if they haven't "seen it all before", I'm certain they would have heard about it in cockpit discussion! I have seen quite a few low time cadets excel in the sim through good systems management and CRM where 5,000 hour drivers (not of airline experience) have foundered. Specific skills for the job?
I loved my time flying charter in Navajos, Barons, etc - but none of that helped me with integration to multi-crew ops. Often I have seen that experience be a hindrance to those who have "learnt bad habits" and become "set in their ways".
There may be a positive in all this, though - these cadets should stay for years (at least 10-15) in the RHS to learn the complex job they are getting into. Because they bring nothing to the organisation initially - their pay / conditions should be lower than what "traditional" entry F/Os have earned. This may see a lot of the "wank and glamour" factor disappear from that job and encourage other avenues of aviation to develop with respect to pilot pay / conditions. Have we not seen a "downturn" in airline entry conditions and a (slight) improvement in many areas of GA and regional airlines? By way of example, I know of a flying school that pays it's instructors more than what these cadets will get annually in their first ten years on the job, and they certainly get more than a VB Cruise F/O! Perhaps other elements of the industry will be able to attract / keep some expertise and professionalism and my kid might one day learn circuits from an instructor who has a breadth of experience. Perhaps the "cannon fodder" approach to airline schemes and subsequent lesser pay / conditions than before will keep some of the "little rich kids" away to do other things - after all, 85K outlay for something like 40K pa return (at least for the first several years) plus crappy basing / rosters, etc is not really a good investment considering the options available...
I agree with Pharoah that this thread is very entertaining, particularly with all the resentment out there, which is of itself, why the pilot profession is going down the tubes. I often ask myself why pilots (both junior and senior) prostitute themselves for poor pay / conditions / treatment by various employers, yet whinge about it at the same time. The answer I come up with is always this - because if they don't, someone else in our hallowed profession will and they will miss out - so better get in first! Professional prostitution / abasement / anything at all for that next bigger airplane...
This, of course, is the root of the problem - and Bruce Buchanan, et al, are simply taking advantage of this from a commercial perspective.If I was a shareholder I'd be cheering! Now, to just find an office worker who is happy to pay for their training on the new photocopier...
1. Conducts thorough aptitude testing to determine if the trainee will assimilate the required level of learning at the required rate;
2. Invests millions of dollars into their training - not just as a pilot, but as a person - with the intent of making said trainee mature enough to cope with the demands of the role;
3. Conducts the training from start to finish in-house (or by a contractor company with military oversight) to a very standardised programme essentially guaranteeing a known product. Candidates who at any time fall below the learning curve are "scrubbed" not offered another go based on funding some extra training themselves.
Unfortunately, from what I have observed, the selection process for airline cadet programmes tends to be based heavily on how strong the bank account is that is funding the training...
There is no reason why a good training programme for cadets, funded properly (ie by the Company in order to guarantee quality), cannot produce a competent A320 F/O which should not require much more than guidance and mentoring from the Captain. In flight take-overs (as outlined above) from skippers should be extremely rare.
The thing I find interesting, though, is that the rise of these schemes may cause airline flying (in the flavour of QF / VB / J*) to no longer be the "pinnacle" of civilian flying, rather it may become a separate and independant discipline that is normally entered at the very start of the career. As has already been stated elsewhere here - flying heavy airliners is a different kettle of fish to flying light twins single pilot IFR in GA, turbo-props in regional aviation or helos in the military. The skill set for each, although related, is different enough to have a wannabe pilot perhaps "pick a path" at the commencement of their career - GA becoming instructor, or GA becoming regional aviation in turbo-props, or military, or airlines. The traditional path of GA - GA slightly bigger - GA even more slightly bigger - airlines is becoming less distinct (and relevant) nowadays. The concept of becoming a master of one trade, not a jack of all, I think is becoming important in today's very diverse aviation industry.
How's this - the technology and reliability of modern airliners goes a long way to mitigate the requirement for experience garnered in "raw" flying skills, problems encountered in these aircraft would be best dealt with by adequate management of systems and redundancies, plus co-ordination of the crew as opposed to what many refer to as "stick and rudder" skills. A cadet, after 10-15 years at the very least in the RHS, I reckon would have gained enough experience by their participation and mentoring from Captains to be able to be considered for a command without too many problems. The fact that they have been exposed to it all this time would mean that if they haven't "seen it all before", I'm certain they would have heard about it in cockpit discussion! I have seen quite a few low time cadets excel in the sim through good systems management and CRM where 5,000 hour drivers (not of airline experience) have foundered. Specific skills for the job?
I loved my time flying charter in Navajos, Barons, etc - but none of that helped me with integration to multi-crew ops. Often I have seen that experience be a hindrance to those who have "learnt bad habits" and become "set in their ways".
There may be a positive in all this, though - these cadets should stay for years (at least 10-15) in the RHS to learn the complex job they are getting into. Because they bring nothing to the organisation initially - their pay / conditions should be lower than what "traditional" entry F/Os have earned. This may see a lot of the "wank and glamour" factor disappear from that job and encourage other avenues of aviation to develop with respect to pilot pay / conditions. Have we not seen a "downturn" in airline entry conditions and a (slight) improvement in many areas of GA and regional airlines? By way of example, I know of a flying school that pays it's instructors more than what these cadets will get annually in their first ten years on the job, and they certainly get more than a VB Cruise F/O! Perhaps other elements of the industry will be able to attract / keep some expertise and professionalism and my kid might one day learn circuits from an instructor who has a breadth of experience. Perhaps the "cannon fodder" approach to airline schemes and subsequent lesser pay / conditions than before will keep some of the "little rich kids" away to do other things - after all, 85K outlay for something like 40K pa return (at least for the first several years) plus crappy basing / rosters, etc is not really a good investment considering the options available...
I agree with Pharoah that this thread is very entertaining, particularly with all the resentment out there, which is of itself, why the pilot profession is going down the tubes. I often ask myself why pilots (both junior and senior) prostitute themselves for poor pay / conditions / treatment by various employers, yet whinge about it at the same time. The answer I come up with is always this - because if they don't, someone else in our hallowed profession will and they will miss out - so better get in first! Professional prostitution / abasement / anything at all for that next bigger airplane...
This, of course, is the root of the problem - and Bruce Buchanan, et al, are simply taking advantage of this from a commercial perspective.If I was a shareholder I'd be cheering! Now, to just find an office worker who is happy to pay for their training on the new photocopier...
there's an ex qf cadet at jetstar asia who was offered a command (in fact i believe they all were). he decided to stay, and got his command after 2.5 - 3 years from first checking out on the 320. by all accounts he is doing just fine. Many of the cadets at the regionals were offered commands as well. seems alot of the 'cadets are unacceptable' brigade are those in ga who think they are owed a job in the airlines. Maybe we should judge each individual on their own merits and performances rather than tar everyone with the same brush (cadets are incompetent, GA pilots are nothing but cowboy hacks, instructors have no 'real' experience, Military are all moustache growing long sleeve wearing self inflating egotistical knobs blah blah blah...)
lets just wait and see. maybe we'll all take a united stand and none of the 20,000
expected applicants will apply. hahahhhhhaaaa as if pilots would ever be united....
Looks like jetstar will win that race to the bottom.....
lets just wait and see. maybe we'll all take a united stand and none of the 20,000
expected applicants will apply. hahahhhhhaaaa as if pilots would ever be united....Looks like jetstar will win that race to the bottom.....
Making some things very clear, I have a copy of the Jetstar EBA in my hand and the following can be said.
1) A "Graduate" cadet or Junior F/O (as described in the 2008 EBA) once completed the course will be on 60% of a Level 2 F/O's wage, which gives them just over $55,000 p.a.
2) A junior F/O will not earn a standard F/O's salary until they qualify for an A.T.P.L. not a frozen A.T.P.L. but a full A.T.P.L. (including command time) If you do not meet the command requirements of CAR 5.172 then the company will allow you to gain the necessary requirements at their discretion.
3) This is not like the Qantas cadetship which upon graduation and successful farming out considers you like any other direct entry pilot of Qantas, rather than a junior second officer.
These points may have been brought up earlier however It is worth reiterating
1) A "Graduate" cadet or Junior F/O (as described in the 2008 EBA) once completed the course will be on 60% of a Level 2 F/O's wage, which gives them just over $55,000 p.a.
2) A junior F/O will not earn a standard F/O's salary until they qualify for an A.T.P.L. not a frozen A.T.P.L. but a full A.T.P.L. (including command time) If you do not meet the command requirements of CAR 5.172 then the company will allow you to gain the necessary requirements at their discretion.
3) This is not like the Qantas cadetship which upon graduation and successful farming out considers you like any other direct entry pilot of Qantas, rather than a junior second officer.
These points may have been brought up earlier however It is worth reiterating