V Oz Firing Up
inandout, he must be the only one!
744 F/O about 240000, 767 Capt about 240000, 380 F/O about 260000, 744 S/O (senior) about 170000, 330 Capt about 260000. Shall I go on? And this is with low divisors! (Includes allowances, about 15000 a year)
744 F/O about 240000, 767 Capt about 240000, 380 F/O about 260000, 744 S/O (senior) about 170000, 330 Capt about 260000. Shall I go on? And this is with low divisors! (Includes allowances, about 15000 a year)
A quote from the not too distant past, (2006)
This is what all airline managers think of the QF payscales, VB management would be no different.
Do you really think VOz payscales are going to improve enough to be competetive with current QF pay?
The reality is that operating pressures are more likely to lead to QF wages decreasing (or being replaced with lower cost alternatives) rather than VOz wages climbing.
Mr Joyce said Jetstar's pay rates were realistic compared to the higher rates of pay offered by Qantas, which were "not right".
"They are overpaid. They are not competitive," he said.
The $180,000 annual salary of a Jetstar A330 captain is around $100,000 less than a Qantas captain is paid. Jetstar co-pilots will be paid around $100,000 a year.
Mr Joyce said Jetstar's pay rates were in line with several Asian airlines
"They are overpaid. They are not competitive," he said.
The $180,000 annual salary of a Jetstar A330 captain is around $100,000 less than a Qantas captain is paid. Jetstar co-pilots will be paid around $100,000 a year.
Mr Joyce said Jetstar's pay rates were in line with several Asian airlines
Do you really think VOz payscales are going to improve enough to be competetive with current QF pay?
The reality is that operating pressures are more likely to lead to QF wages decreasing (or being replaced with lower cost alternatives) rather than VOz wages climbing.
B772,
I think you need to blunten your pencil a bit mate.
You quote a rise in VB shares of 132.8% over the past 12 months, and QF shares only 17.6%. Fantastic (pretty good for QF as well I must say) if you bought VB shares 12 months ago. But if you're using that rationale to support their respective strengths, what were VB shares 5 years ago? I think you'll find that anyone holding VB shares from then would only dream of QF's "paltry" 4.8%. The fact that VB shares have risen from Disasterous to Sh!thouse over the last year is probably not reason enough to break out the bubbly just yet?
Gidday Red Jet.
Can you tell the forum how long it is to command at VOZ? DEC's excluded of course.
I think you need to blunten your pencil a bit mate.
You quote a rise in VB shares of 132.8% over the past 12 months, and QF shares only 17.6%. Fantastic (pretty good for QF as well I must say) if you bought VB shares 12 months ago. But if you're using that rationale to support their respective strengths, what were VB shares 5 years ago? I think you'll find that anyone holding VB shares from then would only dream of QF's "paltry" 4.8%. The fact that VB shares have risen from Disasterous to Sh!thouse over the last year is probably not reason enough to break out the bubbly just yet?
Gidday Red Jet.
Can you tell the forum how long it is to command at VOZ? DEC's excluded of course.
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Red Jet as much as I would like to believe your statements comparing pay scales with legacy carriers like QF,unfortunately I can't. Most of the VA pilots accepted a " low cost/new world carrier wage" because of the following:
1. Overseas Captains: it was the last chance to join as an Oz based 777 operator as a DEC, sick of the sandpit, >55 year old retired ( CX ) guys with the need to top up the super fund after the GFC. Some perhaps genuinely needed a job after being screwed by SQ etc.
2. Overseas F.O's: Perhaps sick of being overseas and needed to get home, some for migration and a better and safer life for the family. Perhaps a few came from smaller domestic operators and had the need to fly internationally on a larger A/C . Most of them I imagine felt that they had a genuine chance at a quick promotion and were willing to accept the lower pay and take the risk.
3.CRFO's: Some may have been unsuccessful at obtaining a jet job or were too old to try again when another opportunity arose. Others may have thought that it may provide a good opportunity to gain some valuable experience prior to moving onto QF, CX or a middle eastern carrier as a cadet/second officer. Most I imagine also took a calculated gamble in the hope they may be promoted quickly to an F.O. position.
I can only believe most decisions to join VA were made due to desperation or a calculated gamble. It looks that mostly things have not worked out at the last chance saloon.
1. Overseas Captains: it was the last chance to join as an Oz based 777 operator as a DEC, sick of the sandpit, >55 year old retired ( CX ) guys with the need to top up the super fund after the GFC. Some perhaps genuinely needed a job after being screwed by SQ etc.
2. Overseas F.O's: Perhaps sick of being overseas and needed to get home, some for migration and a better and safer life for the family. Perhaps a few came from smaller domestic operators and had the need to fly internationally on a larger A/C . Most of them I imagine felt that they had a genuine chance at a quick promotion and were willing to accept the lower pay and take the risk.
3.CRFO's: Some may have been unsuccessful at obtaining a jet job or were too old to try again when another opportunity arose. Others may have thought that it may provide a good opportunity to gain some valuable experience prior to moving onto QF, CX or a middle eastern carrier as a cadet/second officer. Most I imagine also took a calculated gamble in the hope they may be promoted quickly to an F.O. position.
I can only believe most decisions to join VA were made due to desperation or a calculated gamble. It looks that mostly things have not worked out at the last chance saloon.
Last edited by Grey Nomad; 4th Jan 2010 at 05:42.
In and Out -
my A330 FO hourly rate is $154.68. At 160 credit hrs Min Guarantee per bid period x 6.5 bid periods per annum that is $160867.20. Add 6 days of training (4x sims and 2 x EPs/Security) at 33 hrs credit that is $5104. Include a quaint little allowance called STACR of $3697 per annum and we get.............$169668.40.
Damn enough near to $170K which is 5K less than the figure quoted earlier of $175K for a VA Captain on an earlier post. If it is now at 180K then I suppose I am about 10K less than a VA Captain flogging across the Pacific (and I believe to Johburg and others). If their pay is to go up to $216K I am happy for them. I guess I shall overtake that when I move up to the 380.
To be honest, last years 08/09 total pay was all up just north of 200K (not including Super).
I still reckon you are being dudded.
my A330 FO hourly rate is $154.68. At 160 credit hrs Min Guarantee per bid period x 6.5 bid periods per annum that is $160867.20. Add 6 days of training (4x sims and 2 x EPs/Security) at 33 hrs credit that is $5104. Include a quaint little allowance called STACR of $3697 per annum and we get.............$169668.40.
Damn enough near to $170K which is 5K less than the figure quoted earlier of $175K for a VA Captain on an earlier post. If it is now at 180K then I suppose I am about 10K less than a VA Captain flogging across the Pacific (and I believe to Johburg and others). If their pay is to go up to $216K I am happy for them. I guess I shall overtake that when I move up to the 380.
To be honest, last years 08/09 total pay was all up just north of 200K (not including Super).
I still reckon you are being dudded.
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Gidday Krusty!
Plan A:
18 more DEC's to go to VB'captains - that will pretty much mean no internal upgrades until the arrival of the 7th aircraft in Q4 2011. At that point internal upgrades will start and roll out at whatever rate the next 6 option'ed aircraft arrive.
Plan B:
The rumoured -200LR's arrive from Q4 2010 onwards, in which case all bets are off. Command courses start in last half of 2010 for SFO's.
Plan C:
Most of the current Captains take the advice from oracles of PPruNE and leave henceforth, whilst any budding DEC's from the sandpit bow out, regretting having had the audacity to even contemplate getting out of bed in the morning for less than 300K/per annum, in return for a place in the sun in the Lucky Country. We'll be doing Command courses next week - still sure you don't wanna come join us...??
Plan A:
18 more DEC's to go to VB'captains - that will pretty much mean no internal upgrades until the arrival of the 7th aircraft in Q4 2011. At that point internal upgrades will start and roll out at whatever rate the next 6 option'ed aircraft arrive.
Plan B:
The rumoured -200LR's arrive from Q4 2010 onwards, in which case all bets are off. Command courses start in last half of 2010 for SFO's.
Plan C:
Most of the current Captains take the advice from oracles of PPruNE and leave henceforth, whilst any budding DEC's from the sandpit bow out, regretting having had the audacity to even contemplate getting out of bed in the morning for less than 300K/per annum, in return for a place in the sun in the Lucky Country. We'll be doing Command courses next week - still sure you don't wanna come join us...??
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Ah Krusty I do enjoy your glass half full outlook on life.
I know one Virgin pilot who has almost a million shares in VB bought near the bottom. He is currently sitting on a substantial capital gain so as the smarter investors know it is the price you buy assets for that makes you the big money. People can carry on about what was the price 5 years ago (for quite a lot of companies on the ASX) but it all comes down to when you bought them.
There will be no DECs employed this year externaly to the Virgin Group for VA according to management and there will be probably some promotions. THe DEC's were a required thing for the start up phase exactly the same as Jetstar's A330 operation. Redjet hit the nail on the head with where VA is. It is a startup no matter what anyone on this forum says whilst Qantas has had decades to put their T&Cs in place. THis is exactly why Jetstar was born although no reference is made to their conditions in reference to VA. I find the numbers quoted on here for Qantas interesting as none of my friends in the left seat on the 76 or A330 are doing anywhere near the "accurate" numbers put on this website.
Enjoy the rest of the glass half empty.
I know one Virgin pilot who has almost a million shares in VB bought near the bottom. He is currently sitting on a substantial capital gain so as the smarter investors know it is the price you buy assets for that makes you the big money. People can carry on about what was the price 5 years ago (for quite a lot of companies on the ASX) but it all comes down to when you bought them.
There will be no DECs employed this year externaly to the Virgin Group for VA according to management and there will be probably some promotions. THe DEC's were a required thing for the start up phase exactly the same as Jetstar's A330 operation. Redjet hit the nail on the head with where VA is. It is a startup no matter what anyone on this forum says whilst Qantas has had decades to put their T&Cs in place. THis is exactly why Jetstar was born although no reference is made to their conditions in reference to VA. I find the numbers quoted on here for Qantas interesting as none of my friends in the left seat on the 76 or A330 are doing anywhere near the "accurate" numbers put on this website.
Enjoy the rest of the glass half empty.
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I'd like to know where you got your unsubstantiated facts from?
It was pointed out to me that the applications in the smaller pile were all from qualified pilots who I described as above. None of them were being processed further because they did not have passes in Physics or Mathematics or English or all three. So while 100% of this pilot group held ATPLs, roughly 40% of them were not high school graduates as far as HR were concerned.
This is not something someone told me about; this is something I saw. I based my statement on that and the talk in here whenever the topic comes up and the number of posters who openly admit not having the quals.
As for "a lot", I was using the phrase in the manner of the economic meaning of "many" which if I remember correctly is something akin to a substantial proportion of the total but not more than a half.
coaldemon, then your friends in the left hand seat are telling you porkies. I just looked up the new pay rates at the end of the last eba. For eg 767 capt is on $212/hour. Multiply by 6.5 bid periods in a year multiply by 160 hour divisor (which is minimum) equals 220000, plus training etc, plus allowance equals 240000. This is minimum..... If divisors rise, plus incremented pay rises this goes up. And a 330 captain is on at least 5% more. You can't discount these figures, they are accurate and very conservative. It's basic maths.
I'm sure Keg as a current 767 Capt can confirm this.
I'm sure Keg as a current 767 Capt can confirm this.
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CRFO - A little more info
The $54k is basic pay...,$12000 allowances and $2000 increment. I'll add that up for those of you working at 'oh-so-more-important-airlines'....,$68K..., as I'm sure you are so well-off you'd normally get someone else to add up for you.
Yep, nowhere near as much as you Captain Starships at other established carriers but, hey....,with a couple of little kids now....,at least I'm not poking through summer thunderstorms in a 30+ year-old, clapped-out Baron, up north living on half that wage in a hovel and 1000 miles away from my family. I get to work with a great bunch of crew, a nice hotel, an expanding route network, a damn nice aircraft and I am home 15 nights a month. Beats the 9-5 grind. VA suits me and my situation fine...,gave me the opportunity/start that otherwise I wouldn't have got. These benefits might seem insignificant/'little' blessings to some of you but we all have different backgrounds and life-experiences on which to base our expectations.
You stick to your planes and I'll stick to mine.
Happy and Safe flying to all!!
Yep, nowhere near as much as you Captain Starships at other established carriers but, hey....,with a couple of little kids now....,at least I'm not poking through summer thunderstorms in a 30+ year-old, clapped-out Baron, up north living on half that wage in a hovel and 1000 miles away from my family. I get to work with a great bunch of crew, a nice hotel, an expanding route network, a damn nice aircraft and I am home 15 nights a month. Beats the 9-5 grind. VA suits me and my situation fine...,gave me the opportunity/start that otherwise I wouldn't have got. These benefits might seem insignificant/'little' blessings to some of you but we all have different backgrounds and life-experiences on which to base our expectations.
You stick to your planes and I'll stick to mine.
Happy and Safe flying to all!!
Wingswest, the reason the 'starship' captains are criticising the income is for your future benefit! They are paid these figures already so could just sit back and watch the future generations sell themselves short for quick progression. For you to come out swinging against them is testiment to how far you can see beyond the end of your nose. No pilot is forced to do this job and spends much to reach even a basic level.
Sure does beat the 9-5 but after you've done it a few years you are going to want more for your effort than the ego trip of flying a big jet and then where?
Why do people who have been enslaved always make this comment to justify their decision, although always used to hear it from underpaid GA pilots not 777 crew.
Sure does beat the 9-5 but after you've done it a few years you are going to want more for your effort than the ego trip of flying a big jet and then where?
VA suits me and my situation fine...,gave me the opportunity/start that otherwise I wouldn't have got.
Last edited by 43Inches; 4th Jan 2010 at 06:39.
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Why do people who have been enslaved always make this comment to justify their decision, although always used to hear it from underpaid GA pilots not 777 crew.
.
If you want to see how the race to bottom is panning out in the land of the free, read this quote. This is not fiction or some academic discussion but real life.
If the rot doesn't stop soon could very well be YOUR reality before you retire.
Please, never complain & tell us you weren't warned.
Michael Moore's pointing out something no one in the media seems to want to discuss: How little money the people who are flying commercial planes are getting paid. As he says, these are not the people you want working a second job:
We're on the descent from 20,000 feet in the air when the flight attendant leans over the elderly woman next to me and taps me on the shoulder.
"I'm listening to Lady Gaga," I say as I remove just one of the ear buds. I know not this Lady Gaga, but her performance last week on SNL was fascinating.
"The pilots would like to see you in the cockpit when we land," she says with a southern drawl.
"Did I do something wrong?"
"No. They have something to show you." (The last time an employee of an airline wanted to show me something it was her written reprimand for eating an in-flight meal without paying for it. "Yes," she said, "we have to pay for our own meals on board now.")
The plane landed and I stepped into the cockpit. "Read this," the first officer said. He handed me a letter from the airline to him. It was headlined "LETTER OF CONCERN." It seems this poor fellow had taken three sick days in the past year. The letter was a warning not to take another one -- or else.
"Great," I said. "Just what I want -- you coming to work sick, flying me up in the air and asking to borrow the barf bag from my seatback pocket."
He then showed me his pay stub. He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza.
I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated (using pilots as only one example of how people's wages have been slashed and the middle class decimated). In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps. Another pilot in the film has a second job as a dog walker.
"I have a second job!," the two pilots said in unison. One is a substitute teacher. The other works in a coffee shop. You know, maybe it's just me, but the two occupations whose workers shouldn't be humpin' a second job are brain surgeons and airline pilots. Call me crazy.
I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie.
"I hadn't heard anywhere that this stuff about the airlines is in this new movie," the pilot said.
"No, you wouldn't," I replied. "The press likes to talk about me, not the movie."
And it's true. I've been surprised (and slightly annoyed) that, with all that's been written and talked about "Capitalism: A Love Story," very little attention has been paid the mind-blowing stuff in the film: pilots on food stamps, companies secretly taking out life insurance policies on employees and hoping they die young so the company can collect, judges getting kickbacks from the private prison industry for sending innocent people (kids) to be locked up. The profit motive -- it's a killer.
Especially when your pilot started his day at 6am working at the local Starbucks.
We're on the descent from 20,000 feet in the air when the flight attendant leans over the elderly woman next to me and taps me on the shoulder.
"I'm listening to Lady Gaga," I say as I remove just one of the ear buds. I know not this Lady Gaga, but her performance last week on SNL was fascinating.
"The pilots would like to see you in the cockpit when we land," she says with a southern drawl.
"Did I do something wrong?"
"No. They have something to show you." (The last time an employee of an airline wanted to show me something it was her written reprimand for eating an in-flight meal without paying for it. "Yes," she said, "we have to pay for our own meals on board now.")
The plane landed and I stepped into the cockpit. "Read this," the first officer said. He handed me a letter from the airline to him. It was headlined "LETTER OF CONCERN." It seems this poor fellow had taken three sick days in the past year. The letter was a warning not to take another one -- or else.
"Great," I said. "Just what I want -- you coming to work sick, flying me up in the air and asking to borrow the barf bag from my seatback pocket."
He then showed me his pay stub. He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza.
I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated (using pilots as only one example of how people's wages have been slashed and the middle class decimated). In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps. Another pilot in the film has a second job as a dog walker.
"I have a second job!," the two pilots said in unison. One is a substitute teacher. The other works in a coffee shop. You know, maybe it's just me, but the two occupations whose workers shouldn't be humpin' a second job are brain surgeons and airline pilots. Call me crazy.
I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie.
"I hadn't heard anywhere that this stuff about the airlines is in this new movie," the pilot said.
"No, you wouldn't," I replied. "The press likes to talk about me, not the movie."
And it's true. I've been surprised (and slightly annoyed) that, with all that's been written and talked about "Capitalism: A Love Story," very little attention has been paid the mind-blowing stuff in the film: pilots on food stamps, companies secretly taking out life insurance policies on employees and hoping they die young so the company can collect, judges getting kickbacks from the private prison industry for sending innocent people (kids) to be locked up. The profit motive -- it's a killer.
Especially when your pilot started his day at 6am working at the local Starbucks.
Wingswest: geez mate, sold yourself a bit cheap didn't ya?
Just think about your contribution to the overall good of the Pilot profession whilst you cross the Pacific for the 100th time. Gets a bit thin after while doesn't it? More to life than flying a shiny new ER isn't there?
Well done, we are so proud of you.
Just think about your contribution to the overall good of the Pilot profession whilst you cross the Pacific for the 100th time. Gets a bit thin after while doesn't it? More to life than flying a shiny new ER isn't there?
Well done, we are so proud of you.
