V Oz Firing Up
If you think 54K is below the poverty line you're mad - it maybe below the average wage but it's no where near the poverty line!
54K (plus allowances) to fly a brand new jet with hopes of career prospects in a large airline group vs 35K flying a 30 year old Cessna around the traps with little hope of progession in some backward run GA outfit - gee it's a tough choice....
Now those of you who are QF skippers can slam me all you want but times have changed -it's easy for you to say it's a bad deal sitting up front of your shiney jet earning $200K+ a year....
Now where do I apply....
54K (plus allowances) to fly a brand new jet with hopes of career prospects in a large airline group vs 35K flying a 30 year old Cessna around the traps with little hope of progession in some backward run GA outfit - gee it's a tough choice....
Now those of you who are QF skippers can slam me all you want but times have changed -it's easy for you to say it's a bad deal sitting up front of your shiney jet earning $200K+ a year....
Now where do I apply....
For the record, I did apply for V Australia and actually had a chuckle when I was read out the terms and conditions over the phone. When asked "So do you want to proceed with your application?" I bluntly answered, "No thank you. Those terms and conditions are way below what I would expect any B777 tech crew to be offered, whether for a cruise FO position or not. Unless they improve significantly, I'm sorry but I'm not interested." Was it rude? No - it was honest. He really had no answer and guess what would've happened if morons like you and everyone else had've said the same thing?
Go back to your $54K hole and enjoy eating maggi noodles for the rest of your life.
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I can't believe anyone could boast about accepting $54000 to fly as an airline pilot on wide body aircraft. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Thanks for ruining this great industry.
captaintunedog777 said...
"Seriously $54 grand for doing nothing is pretty good pay"
My god in heaven! I don't know what's more worrying? The fact that this individual thinks a wide bodied aircrew member simply turns up on day one (apparently without making any sort of sacrifice/effort to even be qualified in the first place) and then continues to play no active role whatsoever. Because that's how it reads.
Or worse, this individual is actually a VOZ crew member, and either has scant regard for the guy sitting behind him, or is so blasie about the role as to think it only warrants $54K P/A!
Either way. Seek help!
"Seriously $54 grand for doing nothing is pretty good pay"
My god in heaven! I don't know what's more worrying? The fact that this individual thinks a wide bodied aircrew member simply turns up on day one (apparently without making any sort of sacrifice/effort to even be qualified in the first place) and then continues to play no active role whatsoever. Because that's how it reads.
Or worse, this individual is actually a VOZ crew member, and either has scant regard for the guy sitting behind him, or is so blasie about the role as to think it only warrants $54K P/A!
Either way. Seek help!
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Well whether you think 54k is good or not, I used to work in a factory 16 years ago in a totally unskilled position and made 45k a year, and that was dead easy just had to turn up, do your stuff then go home! Still know some old hands still plodding on in the said factory the salary now is around 62k. Make what you want of that.
What endorsement does a CRZ F/O actually get? I don't think it has been answered yet. A Co-pilot rating or a Command rating? If a Command rating I can believe the above comment otherwise I would positively disagree! 
These guys with 777 endo`s will be sitting pretty in about 18-24 months when the next world wide pilot shortage hits. And you will then be wondering how you got left behind!
I keep waiting for a VA Cruise F/O (or any VA pilot) to come on here and say that $54k is a load of bollocks and the pay is actually a lot more than that...but so far nothing. 
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20 years old fresh CPL( or what ever is reqd) and 54K sign me up. Most guys have to take a step back and look at things as if they were just getting started again, noy all that bad. Not to mention the benifits and I don't mean dental
Good for a laugh
I love these threads! 
Most pilots wont stand together, blame everyone else for their sh!t wages and except no responsibility for any of it.
Help someone in need and guide them on the right path. You might create some Unity, but I doubt it. Not many pilots have balls when it comes to standing up and getting what they want. They always want someone else to do it for them, as they don't want to be seen "causing trouble" or are just plain gutless.
The Virgin Pilots (especially the senior ones) could band together and do something about, but they don't. They expect the AFAP (aka Toothless Tiger) to do something about it, or the other pilots to do something about it. Pilots' don't Organise themselves. Too selfish and too lazy.
If someone is stupid enough to fly a 777 for $54K, good luck to the idiots. For an Airline to offer that sh!t, it just shows you what a Quality operation they are. They wont have staff loyalty and this will cost them dearly. You can go and mow lawns for your local council for that pay, have a 35 hr week (9 day fortnight) and not go through a lot of bullsh!t from everyone you work with.
Anyway, I'm off to work, but first I'm going upstairs to tell management how good they are and dob on a few guys I work with to promote myself, then go and work with the same guys I dobbed in and act as nothing ever happened
Good luck at Virgin whatever
Most pilots wont stand together, blame everyone else for their sh!t wages and except no responsibility for any of it.
Help someone in need and guide them on the right path. You might create some Unity, but I doubt it. Not many pilots have balls when it comes to standing up and getting what they want. They always want someone else to do it for them, as they don't want to be seen "causing trouble" or are just plain gutless.
The Virgin Pilots (especially the senior ones) could band together and do something about, but they don't. They expect the AFAP (aka Toothless Tiger) to do something about it, or the other pilots to do something about it.
Pilots' don't Organise themselves. Too selfish and too lazy.If someone is stupid enough to fly a 777 for $54K, good luck to the idiots. For an Airline to offer that sh!t, it just shows you what a Quality operation they are. They wont have staff loyalty and this will cost them dearly. You can go and mow lawns for your local council for that pay, have a 35 hr week (9 day fortnight) and not go through a lot of bullsh!t from everyone you work with.
Anyway, I'm off to work, but first I'm going upstairs to tell management how good they are and dob on a few guys I work with to promote myself, then go and work with the same guys I dobbed in and act as nothing ever happened
Good luck at Virgin whatever
Your perception of inexperience is vastly different to mine. I know of two applicants that were interviewed last year for DEC positions. Both had more than 15,000 hours total time,in excess of 10,000 hours wide body international command experience with very reputable overseas airlines. Both were TRE/IRE's, ( primarily why they were interviewed) and both accepted the terms and condition. They are awaiting further notification from VA recruitment.
1. Well cashed up after a long stint overseas and keen to come back home and fly for a few years before retirement ? Money not a major consideration.
2. Having family issues ? Wife doesn't like the sand pit/Hong Kong and is threatening to leave unless a move south is made.
$54 000/year in Sydney would have delivery drivers turning their noses up in disgust. You will need either:
1. Wife in a well paid job and able to support you if married.
2. Living at home or parental financial support if single.
3. A second job such a taxi driving or labouring on your days off.
Most airlines won't accept cruise captain time towards command hour requirements. Cruise f/o time is worth even less. EVA Air might look at you but forget about ever getting an upgrade
Reality is they could offer 45K for CRZ FOs and they still would be unable to jump over the pile of applications. Wait for B scale ! :P
Wait until they start offering 777 cadet schemes for $50k - and include 2 years of 'free' CRZ F/O time! Easyjet are doing similar in Europe now - the race to the bottom is getting to be a faster race !!
Airline CEOs must laugh over their Grange Hermitages and comment 'these pilots love their job so much they'd almost do it for free'.
Wait until they start offering 777 cadet schemes for $50k - and include 2 years of 'free' CRZ F/O time! Easyjet are doing similar in Europe now - the race to the bottom is getting to be a faster race !!
Airline CEOs must laugh over their Grange Hermitages and comment 'these pilots love their job so much they'd almost do it for free'.
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FM gets $60770. The CFO pay is actually $59500, ( which is pathetic) with 12% super on top. In the VA EBA this would go to $108150 and $113453 by July 2010, 13% super on top, which is acceptable.
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Dear Metro Man,
These guys weren't offered 54,000 per year. More like 180,000 plus check and training allowance.
They maintain residences in Australia. Have worked overseas for the past 20 years. Are Australiana and are entitled to work here, just as you are, and are exercising that right, and their right to choose who they work for and the terms offered regardless of what you presume or speculate.
These guys weren't offered 54,000 per year. More like 180,000 plus check and training allowance.
They maintain residences in Australia. Have worked overseas for the past 20 years. Are Australiana and are entitled to work here, just as you are, and are exercising that right, and their right to choose who they work for and the terms offered regardless of what you presume or speculate.
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Disgrace
To be paid 54k per year for the role on offer is disgraceful if all the facts in this thead are true.My contempt and disgsust lays more with the creator's and supporters of this pathetic pay scale,senior management at the airline.What grubs.
There will always be a healthy argument as to whether a Techy should operate for such a miniscule salary,there are some valid points on all sides,and I am going to leave that issue alone.But one thing is certain,if that is how highly your employer value's your abiliites as part of a flight crew to pay such crap wages,then don't hold your breath waiting on promises to be fulfilled such as a quick climb up the ladder or any other loyalistic fantasy they are dangling before you.Senior Mangement are enjoying watching their wallets grow fat at the expense of your bowl of rice salary.
Sushi Muncher - Your posts reveal that you are a desperate brown noser who would go to unimagineable lengths to jag a job with VA.I dont have an issue with you wanting a job at VA, but the way you are going about it is making me look for the nearest sick bag.If you do land a job there,you will certainly have a very successful career as there is nothing Management like better within the Virgin group than some robot who will sit quietly,not question anything,and be prepared to slurp their way through their career.
Enjoy your future career, and dont forget the knee pads and rectinol.....
There will always be a healthy argument as to whether a Techy should operate for such a miniscule salary,there are some valid points on all sides,and I am going to leave that issue alone.But one thing is certain,if that is how highly your employer value's your abiliites as part of a flight crew to pay such crap wages,then don't hold your breath waiting on promises to be fulfilled such as a quick climb up the ladder or any other loyalistic fantasy they are dangling before you.Senior Mangement are enjoying watching their wallets grow fat at the expense of your bowl of rice salary.
Sushi Muncher - Your posts reveal that you are a desperate brown noser who would go to unimagineable lengths to jag a job with VA.I dont have an issue with you wanting a job at VA, but the way you are going about it is making me look for the nearest sick bag.If you do land a job there,you will certainly have a very successful career as there is nothing Management like better within the Virgin group than some robot who will sit quietly,not question anything,and be prepared to slurp their way through their career.
Enjoy your future career, and dont forget the knee pads and rectinol.....
Last edited by Cactusjack; 30th Dec 2009 at 20:20. Reason: Had to hurl
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VB can DIR to VA and PB. However VA and PB can not DIR to VB period..........
What's the saying, pot kettle black, something like that anyway. Just my observations, don't yell at me about EBA's and deals I'm not interested.
What's the saying, pot kettle black, something like that anyway. Just my observations, don't yell at me about EBA's and deals I'm not interested.
For those in legacy carriers it may be some stretch to perceive working conditions different from their own. Fundamentally it comes down to feeding the family.
Thankfully these austere times will not last and those carriers taking advantage of the pilot surplus will have to raise the bar or suffer losses to those carriers who provide better working conditions and remuneration.
Until then we can all pontificate till the cows come home, but the reason why pilots accept these conditions is not as clear cut as many may presume.
I do not work for V Oz. I have worked throughout the Pacific and Europe and have been in the industry long enough to see that eventually the momentum will swing back in the pilots favour....it may unfortunately take a few accidents due to fatigue and excessive work practices before the pendulum swings the other way, and then only because of regulations introduced as business seems incapable of responsible self regulation.
Peace, Love and Happiness to all and a very successful New Year to all.
Thankfully these austere times will not last and those carriers taking advantage of the pilot surplus will have to raise the bar or suffer losses to those carriers who provide better working conditions and remuneration.
Until then we can all pontificate till the cows come home, but the reason why pilots accept these conditions is not as clear cut as many may presume.
I do not work for V Oz. I have worked throughout the Pacific and Europe and have been in the industry long enough to see that eventually the momentum will swing back in the pilots favour....it may unfortunately take a few accidents due to fatigue and excessive work practices before the pendulum swings the other way, and then only because of regulations introduced as business seems incapable of responsible self regulation.
Peace, Love and Happiness to all and a very successful New Year to all.
fatbus.
Before you sign up as a 20 year old fresh CPL holder (if that's what you are), I think you'll find that...
Before you sign up as a 20 year old fresh CPL holder (if that's what you are), I think you'll find that...
- The experience level of most VA CFO's is substantially greater.
- Those VA CFO's with only a CPL are on much less than the $54K. I think the figure for non ATPL is around $43K!
- Unless your career aspirations at 20 are for a lifetime stting in the rear seats, (because believe me that's what it means), unable to buy a house, raise a family, or even eventually fund a decent retirement, then maybe you should consider doing something else.
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 30th Dec 2009 at 22:18.
I know it's not directly relaetd but as someone alluded to earlier, the following thread is of interest when it comes to future directions in airline hiring and what price management put on experience:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...n-academy.html
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...n-academy.html
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There is alot of talk about "sitting in GA with no option of getting out". This seems very strange to me as I started in GA when there really was nothing. With a little patience and persistence everyone eventually moved onto better jobs. It was hard but not THAT hard (particularly in 07!).
I must say though that there was no option to sit in the back of a 777 back then so its hard to tell what individuals would have done given the chance. Personally I wanted and sought the experience and didn't apply for Domestic Airlines for a long time. Walking around in a shiny uniform with badges and pins wasn't my first priority learning how to do the job was.
Management are not "SCUM" for offering low wages thats part of what they do for a living people! Its up to groups of employees saying yes or no to the deal. Management are "SCUM" when they don't stick to signed EBA's by playing with weak points and grey areas. Pilots that vote during EBA's for poor conditions are "SCUM". As for chosing to work for a place where the conditions are already in place then each to their own.
Correct me if I'm wrong but negotiations are underway for a VA EBA right now aren't they? Could anyone provide any insight?
I'm interested to see the next episode. Where will the junior Cruise FO's get the experience? VB ejet? Right seat 777? The guys at Jetstar were made into 330 FO's so it has been done before. Can anyone recall what Cruise FO's were paid when Jetstar had them on the 330?
I must say though that there was no option to sit in the back of a 777 back then so its hard to tell what individuals would have done given the chance. Personally I wanted and sought the experience and didn't apply for Domestic Airlines for a long time. Walking around in a shiny uniform with badges and pins wasn't my first priority learning how to do the job was.
Management are not "SCUM" for offering low wages thats part of what they do for a living people! Its up to groups of employees saying yes or no to the deal. Management are "SCUM" when they don't stick to signed EBA's by playing with weak points and grey areas. Pilots that vote during EBA's for poor conditions are "SCUM". As for chosing to work for a place where the conditions are already in place then each to their own.
Correct me if I'm wrong but negotiations are underway for a VA EBA right now aren't they? Could anyone provide any insight?
I'm interested to see the next episode. Where will the junior Cruise FO's get the experience? VB ejet? Right seat 777? The guys at Jetstar were made into 330 FO's so it has been done before. Can anyone recall what Cruise FO's were paid when Jetstar had them on the 330?
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 31st Dec 2009 at 00:53.
There's something I can't quite get my head around Mr. Hat.
Why did VA choose not to offer a career path for VA Second Officers? The option of resigning after 3 years, being free to apply to another operator VB/PB, or anyone else for that matter (with no guarrentee of acceptance), and if sucessfull, years down the track being "allowed" to apply for a position back at VA as a SFO once the required minimum experience is gained (again with no guarentee of acceptance). I mean really, are people that gullible? Sorry, strike that last remark.
Anyway, my point is, is it really that difficult to offer a career path within VA? I don't know of any other airline that doesn't. Is it an insurance thing? Is the VA training system not evolved enough? Qantas do it with Cadets, and from what I believe quite sucessfully. Why do Qantas and every other international airline offer career progression, and VA do not?
If career progression were available at VA, then this whole debate would take on a different complextion.
Why did VA choose not to offer a career path for VA Second Officers? The option of resigning after 3 years, being free to apply to another operator VB/PB, or anyone else for that matter (with no guarrentee of acceptance), and if sucessfull, years down the track being "allowed" to apply for a position back at VA as a SFO once the required minimum experience is gained (again with no guarentee of acceptance). I mean really, are people that gullible? Sorry, strike that last remark.
Anyway, my point is, is it really that difficult to offer a career path within VA? I don't know of any other airline that doesn't. Is it an insurance thing? Is the VA training system not evolved enough? Qantas do it with Cadets, and from what I believe quite sucessfully. Why do Qantas and every other international airline offer career progression, and VA do not?
If career progression were available at VA, then this whole debate would take on a different complextion.
Funny
Agree Mr Hat about Management.
If negotiations are underway, I wouldn't hold my breath for those at the bottom of the sh!theap. Senior Pilots (all Pilots) have a knack for looking out for me only, at the exspense of the people they work with.
Crz FOs' I've been told by a mate who is one, are on around $110K all up. Has an easy roster and commutes. He has around 9000 hrs, mostly turbine for those wondering.
People get $15 p/h to work different jobs. The pr!cks at the airports in Oz probably get about that and take home $6-800 p/w. They have families, mortgages and they survive. Makes me when I hear, "how can they survive on that!" If you were born with the "Silver Spoon" in your mouth and had Mummy and Daddy forked out for everything in the past, then maybe it's hard to survive on $50K a year. 
Anyway, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story I say.
If negotiations are underway, I wouldn't hold my breath for those at the bottom of the sh!theap. Senior Pilots (all Pilots) have a knack for looking out for me only, at the exspense of the people they work with.
Crz FOs' I've been told by a mate who is one, are on around $110K all up. Has an easy roster and commutes. He has around 9000 hrs, mostly turbine for those wondering.
People get $15 p/h to work different jobs. The pr!cks at the airports in Oz probably get about that and take home $6-800 p/w. They have families, mortgages and they survive. Makes me
when I hear, "how can they survive on that!" If you were born with the "Silver Spoon" in your mouth and had Mummy and Daddy forked out for everything in the past, then maybe it's hard to survive on $50K a year. Anyway, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story I say.
Nunc est bibendum
Krusty, the difference between QF and VA is that QF have the opportunity to promote the back seater into an aircraft type where they'll be doing lots of sectors with the commensurate experience and currency gain- probably 20-30 landings a month. That's a very different thing to promoting into an aircraft where you'll be lucky to get 30 landings a year.