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V Oz Firing Up

Old 3rd Jan 2010, 05:56
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Ad-Astra.

Pay rises since then. 10% for CFOs, 3% everyone else.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 06:03
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks at least its going in the right direction.

I have no real axe to grind one way or the other just wanted some accurate figures for the discussion.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 06:51
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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CFO - Considering some of the experience some of the guys have, they would have had to take a significant pay cut.

F/O and CPT wages are absolute rubbish too.

Very sad day for OZ aviation!
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 08:43
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Incentive Plans
The company profit share plan and the individual incentive plan are contingent on achievement of certain criteria concerning both

personal and company performance and may be changed at V Australia’s discretion. Further information about these two
incentive/profit plans will be provided to you after you commence employment.
The 'incentive plans' ?? What a croc.
The only decent incentives offered with VA lay within the Senior Management ranks.Plenty of extra dollars on offer for the boys club.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 09:21
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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As was said previous cactusjack they might as well call those 'incentives' arse kissers remuneration. Don't do the extra shit and you don't get the bonus. As someone else said GA with jets.

Voz should be disgusted for offering such a deal but I bet they laugh at the fact that people do accept them. You'd think people would tell them to stick it when it says the incentives can be removed at Voz's discretion, read that as fat chance of seeing it charlie! I think the race to the bottom just found a world record holder!

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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 10:26
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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The real question is why the CRFO's joined VA and not QF, Jetstar or even VB?
Prior to the GFC a great deal of opportunities and better prospects must have been available. For the majority, I can only assume they must have been unsuccessful with their applications with the better carriers and the job at VA was the last opportunity to fly a jet. I can't imagine that any future EBA negotiations will bring about any great improvements in conditions. Basically, with VIPA and the AFAP not exactly on speaking terms the whole process will take an eternity. This will be much to the delight of the boss of HR. My advice to those unfortunate CRFO's who are waiting for any form of promotion or improvement in conditions in VA is to start applying for another job with another airline. This will at least give you a window seat and put some money in your pocket.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 11:32
  #107 (permalink)  
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V Oz did me a favour and didn't give me a job, if they did I probably would be in the poor house and without a wife by now...

Instead life is good!

PS: I have never applied to QF or VB, knocked back an inteview with JQ, but really wanted to fly a B777 based in Oz, that was my motivation, luckily now that urge has passed...
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 17:46
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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The real question is why the CRFO's joined VA and not QF
A lot of pilots are relatively poorly-educated. No high school passes in physics, mathematics, English etc means they have no chance with Qantas.

Some pilots haven't even finished high school. Maybe for them, VO is the next best chance and represents good coin for no real education other than flying training.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 22:59
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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YoDawg
I'd like to know where you got your unsubstantiated facts from?
A lot of pilots are relatively poorly-educated.
... and could you please quantify "a lot" and "some".
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 23:30
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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What is good coin?

The job i'm in at the moment pays over half of what these captains are getting (before tax, even better off after) on an aircraft 20 times smaller. I'm also at home the majority of the roster with an average of 30 duty hour weeks, no back of the clock work and the company pays all expenses (endorsement, training, uniform, parking etc...). I would have to take a cut of at leats 50% for the crz FO position and still lose if I trade for an FO position.
I can't see how the remuneration is adequate considering the increased responsibility on much longer sectors to international locations whilst toasting in cosmic radiation. Maybe a lack of education is a requirement.

Last edited by 43Inches; 4th Jan 2010 at 01:30.
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Old 4th Jan 2010, 01:41
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What most posters on this thread don't seem to realise, is that when comparing the T&C of VA with QF and the like, they are not comparing apples with apples. The current conditions at QF are reflective of several decades of collective bargaining power, while VA is a start-up operation. The managers at VA would not be doing their job, if they didn't pay as little as they can get away with, while attracting crew of the experience they reckon is required.

We (VA crew) are busy biding our time, getting organised through the respective unions (VIPA/AFAP), all in preparation for collective bargaining, and the result of this bargaining process will be indicative of / as well as a result of, the existing market forces.

And to those of you who think that we must be a bunch of imbecile, uneducated third rank pilots who just couldn't get in with QANTAS, well - you may believe whatever you like but I can assure you that the level of education and experience among the pilots, is very high. Our current Captains come from Singapore Airlines, Cathay, Emirates, QANTAS, Jetstar, Korean, Asiana, South African Airways, VB etc., and the SFO's and many of the CFO's have multiple thousand hours and many of us high jet time in International and Domestic Operations. Personally I have never even applied to QF, because my choice was to not work for an organisation driven by a megalomaniac narcissist and it has been my experience that the QF-staff has become very bitter and twisted while completely disengaging from the company they are working for. Listening to the drivel coming from (alleged) QF staff on this forum, I am completely satisfied that my choice has been correct and that it would have driven me stir bonkers, should I have to be locked up in a cockpit for several hours with some of the twats loitering around here. Back to your bunk, you "Warrens"

And to KRUSTY and his mates: - so you've made your decision that a 777 start-up operation in Australia is of no interest to you and have elected to stay where you are - well, good for you, but fer Christsakes, do yourself and us a favour and stop obsessing over it
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Old 4th Jan 2010, 02:12
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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I think KRUSTY has good credentials with regard to writing about accepting lower wages to launch a brand then expecting conditions to dramatically improve over future EBA negotiations.

Any airline that starts up spruiking it can do everything better at half the price on the back of paying its staff half the going rate is just going to reduce conditions for everyone. That is why employees of other operators are voicing their opinion, and should be concerned.
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Old 4th Jan 2010, 02:21
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It is interesting to note the total investment return from VB shares over the past 12 months is 132.8%; whereas QF is 17.6%.

In fact the QF total average annual return per annum over the last 10 years has been a paltry 4.8%. After allowing for inflation and taxation on the dividends beyond the franking credits you would be in a loss situation.

During the last 10 years QF International has surrenderd significant loss of market share and resultant Australian jobs to competing carriers.
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Old 4th Jan 2010, 02:28
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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During the last 10 years QF International has surrenderd significant loss of market share and resultant Australian jobs to competing carriers.
Yes. By design
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Old 4th Jan 2010, 02:37
  #115 (permalink)  
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... is that when comparing the T&C of VA with QF and the like, they are not comparing apples with apples.
Both carriers operate heavy jet aircraft on trans-pacific routes. They both look like pretty similar apples to me.

To extend the 'apple' analogy a bit though, one company is selling apples having been in business for a long time, the other started business last year. In the world as I tend to see it, apple pickers, machinery drivers, mechanics, front line staff or whatever doing essentially the same job in the new start should be smart enough to demand similar remuneration as is on offer at the place down the road that has been around for a bunch of years. Of course if the 'other stuff' on offer from the start up means that you don't feel the need to be remunerated in the same form as the legacy company then that's a trade off the individual needs to weigh up. It appears that the 'other stuff' needs to account for 50-60% of the terms and conditions on offer at the legacy company. Is that worth it? Is the prospect of a quick promotion going to make up for the lack of conditions in the first few years? Based on the numbers that I've seen I wouldn't think so.

Given the experience level that VOz contributors keep telling me exists in VA, I still can't see why they value themselves so far beneath what is on offer at the legacy carrier- even if all the other stuff is taken into account.
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Old 4th Jan 2010, 02:56
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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- doing essentially the same job in the new start should be smart enough to demand similar remuneration as is on offer at the place down the road that has been around for a bunch of years.
You can be as "smart" as you like, but unless you're sitting across the negotiating table, you cannot negotiate!! Or, to put it differently, unless you get yourself "inside" and accumulate collective bargaining power, you are just a wannabe, that reckons reality "should" be different to what it actually is.

Everyone can (and should) work out for themselves the math, with regard to the merits of accepting lower overall conditions in order to gain a quicker Command position. My attempt at cracking these numbers led me to the choice that I made. I am in my forties now, but if I had been in my early twenties faced with the same equation, clearly the outcome would have been different. Perhaps it is a good idea to refrain from making assumptions with regard to how others have come up with a different answer to your own.

Anyways, VA appear to be holding together with very good loads and improving yield. It's a great place to come to work, we can feed our families and the future looks bright! Get over it people
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Old 4th Jan 2010, 02:57
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Personally I have never even applied to QF, because my choice was to not work for an organisation driven by a megalomaniac narcissist and it has been my experience that the QF-staff has become very bitter and twisted while completely disengaging from the company they are working for.
Is that it RedJet? Is that the reason that you wouldn't apply? You gotta be kidding us mate. Perhaps you really are better suited to all that 'Virgin Flair' nonsense. In which case I wish you well.

I can tell you Bro' that working for QANTAS is the best job I have ever had. Meglomanical Narccissist? Who gives a toss. I am glad that I didn't let stupid ideas like that influence my career choice.

For the record I am an A330 FO and my base salary at what is called the Min Guarantee is about 5K less than the quoted 777 Capt at VA. You could easily add a further 20 K in salary and another 15 K in allowances without even raising a sweat. And my payscale is two levels below the big fella 380.

Still reckon it is that good at VA? Me thinks you are being dudded. Good luck with your negotitations (truly).
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Old 4th Jan 2010, 02:59
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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43 Inches is correct.
Lets look at just one such GA practice, paying for endorsements. Pioneered by Impulse, perfected by VB & now considered "Industry Practice" by everyone else.

Management will spin it any which way they want to justify less pay. There is no "start-up" discount fuel, aircraft, spares, maintenance, overflight, landing or airport charges. The only group that seem to be willing to take a hit to justify a start-up is the crew. To believe otherwise is naive.

Redjet, ask some of your colleges about promises of T&C's improvement once the VB start-up phase had passed. Did VB's T&C's improve when Ansett collapsed and the market was wide open?
It was a long and bitter campaign to improve the T&C's for VB.

It is the continuing rachetting down of T&C's that we are all concerned about.
Every concession that an operator extracts is immediately used by all the other operators to pressure their own crew, and in turn the feedback loop will come back to pressure you.
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Old 4th Jan 2010, 03:20
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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OhSpare Me,
Not sure how your base on the A330 is $175,000.as a FO. I have in front of me my friends Group Certificate, Capt at QF on the A330 SYDQCC2
Gross Payments $192,418
Reportable fringe benifits amount $21,100.
Total Taxable $203,598
Va Capt now $180,000
set to go up to $216,000 in EBA if it gets up.

Last edited by inandout; 4th Jan 2010 at 04:03.
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Old 4th Jan 2010, 03:51
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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It is interesting to note the total investment return from VB shares over the past 12 months is 132.8%; whereas QF is 17.6%.

In fact the QF total average annual return per annum over the last 10 years has been a paltry 4.8%. After allowing for inflation and taxation on the dividends beyond the franking credits you would be in a loss situation.
I think you'll find the VB share price was as low as it was because the market considered it to be INSOLVENT for quite a period. If the GFC lasted longer, VB wouldn't of.

If the shares you originally bought at $2.60 dropped to 17cents in 4 years, would you be gloating ? $2.60 to where it is now 56cents or so is still nothing to gloat about. Well done VB, share holder value has been destroyed well and good, great success.
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