Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

AIPA and JQ

Old 20th Mar 2009, 04:13
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AIPA and JQ

If you can believe what is printed in todays Australian Newspaper, the AIPA has suddenly decided that the JQ boys and girls are not quite the cowboys (and girls) they loftily called them at the start of JQ's launching. Their attitude was typically QF, surely these poor quality pilots were simply ones that QF rejected, and sat back at waited for the airline to fail, and the aircraft to fall out of the sky like leaves, with such idiots at the end of the prong. Oh dear, look whats happened, not only have they not had a prang, but their pathetic little airline is going gangbusters, and all of a sudden the Sky Gods are starting to bleat, after totally refusing JQ pilots entry into the AIPA at the beginning of JQ'S launch, all of a sudden they are offering a set of steak knives and a free haircut to anyone who wants to join. No I have never flown for JQ but certainly have for QF, and pehaps being a relic from TAA and known QFs attitude to us and AN pilots you can forgive a old man for having a bit of a chuckle. I hope you JQ people tell them to stick it up the proverbial Kybar Pass, you have a good product, you have a good future, build your own airline and leave the Sky Gods to thrash around in theirs, their future is a lot bleaker than yours, believe me.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 04:31
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The direction was decided by a minority, who ultimately lined their pockets at the majority's expense.

Unfortunately the majority did not act quickly enough to watch their pockets being fleeced!

Politics are about benefitting the minority under the guise of benefitting the majority.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 04:31
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TG,

Understand where your'e coming from.

But with the unfolding events at Jetstar over the last week, many more have joined AIPA and there is definitely a more conciliatory approach to the lower ranks.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 05:05
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TG,

I understand your bias, however what you post is factually incorrect .....

sigh

N
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 05:19
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Perhaps if you are a relic of TAA you should realise the benefits of organised Unions i.e. unity.
You should also realise how quickly personel in Unions turn over.
Many of the members of AIPA were still in school (some in primary) when TAA were still flying Australian skys.
The people you hold a grudge against are probably long forgotten.
The sooner pilots stop with their pathetic fighting against each other and start working together, the sooner we can stop this continuous spiteful race to the bottom.
If you've been around aviation long enough to have worked for TAA you should know so called 'Sky Gods' are around in all facets of aviation and are not limited to QF.
Maybe the sooner you retire 'old man' and become a 'Sky God' at your local aero club, the sooner we can look forward to building a new Union of all professional pilots in this country.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 05:56
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You're livin' in the past, man! You're hung up on some clown from the sixties, man!
Sorry...first thing that came to mind.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 05:56
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-438, this is not a personal attack on pilots in QF, it is a attack on the culture that has been encouraged over the last fifty years, long before most of you were born. I was on the committee of the AFAP pre 89' and I well know how unions work, they are a horse designed by a committee, so usually end up looking like a camel. I have no reason to think anything is going to change here. As long as your's and my backsides point to the ground there will be no change until the thinking in QF changes, and it has not. I witnessed first hand in Japan not so long ago when having a few drinks in a bar with a relative who works for JQ and the rest of a JQ crew,we noticed two obvious crew members from Oz standing on their own and looking like they would like to join in the fun, we invited them over, they turned out to be two QF pilots, who by the end of the night stated and I quote " you people are nowhere as bad as we have been told" unquote, at first we thought they were joking, sadly they were not, I hopefully put it down to the grog talking, and hope I am right. By the way I am retired, but after a lifetime in the Airlines, still think I am entitled to a point of view, and sorry, still cannot help but have a chuckle at QF'S discomfort.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 06:52
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Just quitely, I'm chuckling as well!
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 07:15
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There is a common misconeption amongst older aus aviators that AIPA pilots hate Jetstar pilots. What absolute rubbish.

Most of the guys i work with are smart enough to leave their emotions at the door when it comes to contract negotiations. It is not about picking a team to barrak for. It's about ensuring the future stability of your careers.

There are no winners in this game. It's all about contract negotiation.

The stronger the union the more power it has to negotiate a better contract for you.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 07:26
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-438

Throughout the history of aviation in Australia, there is only one organisation that has consistently endeavoured and expressed a desire to represent all pilots. (unity).

There is only one organisation that has ever achieved that ideal.

And there is currently only one organisation that has the structure the constitution and the will, that will allow for the representation of all pilots.

Guess which one.

Maui
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 08:18
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Hmmmmm let me see..."The Salvation Army"
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 09:47
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Ho Hum & there we have it again
A few people (at last) come to the boards with some common sense, but sadly & all too quickly it goes down hill to the Kindergarden.
Yes, you can see why GD (& his like all over the World) laugh(ed) at you. Pilots are cr*p at negotiating for themselves. The results speak for themselves with the constant decline of terms & conditions.
Unless you get professionals to negotiate, the rot will continue......Sadly it is of your own making, which is why I (& a few others decided on a different career path) negotiate for ourselves & yes, can only blame ourselves if we screw up!
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 12:06
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Pilots are cr*p at negotiating for themselves
I would hazard a guess to say that the contract that Qantas Longhaul pilots work to would have to be one of, if not the, best contracts available for any carrier worldwide today.

Negotiated by pilots, for pilots.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 12:13
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Really Oxidant???

For the past 25 years that I have been a member of AIPA, my T&C have only got better - every year. Even the bloody mindedness of the past few years looks set to be reversed under the new management regime, headed by no other than the previous JQ boss. AIPA? Guess who have the runs on the board. To the dreamers who are still dreaming about winning the war, keep dreaming. Your pissing into the wind. If your serious about your job, join AIPA.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 12:49
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I have to agree with WhoFlungDung. Most of the EBA's have resulted in good payrises as well as many improvements in conditions. The Certified Agreement is a very thick book with good reason - every time a manager tried to "screw pilots", it would be negotiated at the next EBA which would normally result in a clause being inserted in the CA to prevent a repeat.

The new team are genuine blokes who will look after the interests of junior pilots (probably more than senior ones because any changes will have the greatest effect on them) and in the case on QLink and Jetstar pilots, they have the freedom and responsibility to determine their own paths but have the industrial expertise (& connections) of AIPA to give them more clout in their negotiations. From what I've heard (& read), this is a lot better than what the AFAP is offering to the QLink & Jetstar pilots.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 18:57
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Guys, I (will not) don't want to get into a slanging match.
But, you are cherry picking here. I was making a Worldwide general comment on our T&C's.(See Cpt Sully elsewere on PPRuNe)
The whole point many here were making, was that conditions were going down with J*, Pac Blue, Rex (Plus all the new Euro. low cost guys) et al paying less.
So, saying "I'm alright Jack" is hardly helping the greater pilot body, when greater unity perhaps would?

Last edited by Oxidant; 20th Mar 2009 at 20:37.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 21:45
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My understanding of pilot industrial history suggests that the whole issue boils down to whether those with the negotiating ability and muscle and patience can get a Scope Clause.....or not. If the union(s) representing the disparate groups of pilots flying aircraft owned by the Qantas Group can get a Scope Clause THEN the issue of a Group wide seniority list might mean something. And it would put a stop to newer and newer subsidiaries being created with ever worse conditions.

If there is no Scope Clause then it will be one group of pilots wanting to cherry pick the others jobs, fighting over an ever-diminishing pool of flight deck seats while for example Qantas 787 (Christchurch) Pty Ltd offers a vast array of Dreamliner jobs based on non-union, non seniority, peasant conditions.

Are those (leaders and members)with the negotiating ability and muscle and patience ready to do something?
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 22:03
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A scope clause would be great, very much doubt it though.
Whatever happened to the Group opportunity List?
Wasn't that a concept that tried to emulate a claytons type scope clause?

Going Boeing, don't choke on your own rhetoric now mate.
"The new team are genuine blokes who will look after the interests of junior pilots (probably more than senior ones because any changes will have the greatest effect on them"

Is that why most of the executive are A380 pilots ensuring that conditions are just right on that beast. Just look at the angst thats being caused by some of the pay anomolies that this aircraft is raising. Sounds more like Keynesian inspired trickle down economics to me. Genuine blokes hey? Could you explain the current "night of the long knives" that is presently going on in the AIPA office regarding any staff that have been deemed unacceptable to these genuine guys because of what I can only see as being their percieved political allegiances.
The more things change the more they stay the same me thinks!
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 23:13
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Blow.n, it seems that you don't know these guys well. Anyone who does, knows that they will put the members ahead of their own interests - especially the junior members who have to endure the consequences of any decisions. The fact that a number of them are currently A380 captains is simply a consequence of the stage of their career. One of them has been on COM since being a junior F/O whilst the other two were elected whilst being junior B767 Captains. Anyone who discredits these fine gentlemen obviously is very emotionally attached to the ARG movement and hasn't accepted the wishes of the majority of members that it was time for a change.

Wrt what's happening in the office, there are very valid reasons for what's going on but it would be inappropriate to discuss them on this forum.
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Old 20th Mar 2009, 23:21
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Right on Blown.

While Scope probably is all but impossible to pull off without downing the tools, a Group Opportunity Allocation List (GOAL) is realistically achievable by a union with foresight and determination.

Pity about the imminent departure of AIPA's GM, WoodenEye and others from the AIPA COM. Lost is the clout AIPA used to wield with the Politicians and Qantas Shareholders.

The real test for Team Bazza is not rolling over EBA 7 and accepting 3% pay rises, but ensuring the GOAL is implemented before Qantas is merged into a global mega carrier.

Thank goodness Work Choices is now dead as I donít think the new team would have the balls to keep the company in check.
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