Merged: Qantas:The Trashing Of A Brand
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Just understand that QF's profits are a tax on all Australians. If QF had to compete in real dog eat dog competition here, airfares would be way cheaper, and more Australians would have jobs.
For the first time I could not disagree more with a post from you..
I am in no way a believer of the way QF management operates but...
If Qantas or any Australian business had to compete with an overseas business with cheaper labour and help from their own government it would hardly be a level playing field....cheaper airfrares and goods .....maybe but who would have jobs to buy those things.
If Sunfish had his way we would all be a nation of consumers and nothing would be made or produced in Australia...if that's the case who would have a job?
It was an idea that only Howard could come up with.....there is no such thing as a level playing field.Not all, but a lot of other countries help their own airlines and population and Sunfish would like to throw Qantas out on it's own.
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Interesting to read what the general public think of Qantas.
Reader's Comments: Qantas appeals for Australians' support | News.com.au
Reader's Comments: Qantas appeals for Australians' support | News.com.au
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You gotta love this airline.They work their staff over time and time again and get them to take a wage freeze and lower conditions.All the time they are doing this they give themselves bonus after bonus.They give the airline the moniker the 'spirit of australia' and play 'we still call australia home' and at the same time set up bases overseas as well as sending aircraft os for maintenance so they can cut back on the number of australians they give jobs to.
then to rub it in and make it even better they appeal to australians to fly with them
then to rub it in and make it even better they appeal to australians to fly with them
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How dare Qantas ask us to support them when their past Board and past Senior Management have been hell bent on protecting the Board and management's self interests.
Qantas has a long way to go to restore my complete faith in them!
Mike McInerney
Qantas has a long way to go to restore my complete faith in them!
Mike McInerney
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Mr Gutz,
Its not that difficult to find compensation data. Once upon a time it was a big part of my job.
Would you agree that when take home pay can exceed $180,000 per annum for a senior S/O it would be close to the mark? Would you feel comfortable debating this figure?
"If Qantas or any Australian business had to compete with an overseas business with cheaper labour and help from their own government it would hardly be a level playing field."
No, it would not be level, for long. The market has a fascinating way of ensuring that the playing field becomes level though. QF would quickly cut costs or rapidly sink. But a significant imbalance rarely lasts for very long in a truly competitive environment.
Its not that difficult to find compensation data. Once upon a time it was a big part of my job.
Would you agree that when take home pay can exceed $180,000 per annum for a senior S/O it would be close to the mark? Would you feel comfortable debating this figure?
"If Qantas or any Australian business had to compete with an overseas business with cheaper labour and help from their own government it would hardly be a level playing field."
No, it would not be level, for long. The market has a fascinating way of ensuring that the playing field becomes level though. QF would quickly cut costs or rapidly sink. But a significant imbalance rarely lasts for very long in a truly competitive environment.
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Professor:Selective Nitpicking
Prof you are very selective regarding the issues you wish to debate..
CEO hypocrisy,incompetence and greed need to be addressed by shareholders and legislators.
Turning up for a government handout in a private jet is indicative of the CEO mindset.
Dixon was reknowned for removing commercial passengers so he could sit in his favourite seat.
Dixon forgot he was an employee.
The Professor... Defending the Indefensible
CEO hypocrisy,incompetence and greed need to be addressed by shareholders and legislators.
Turning up for a government handout in a private jet is indicative of the CEO mindset.
Dixon was reknowned for removing commercial passengers so he could sit in his favourite seat.
Dixon forgot he was an employee.
The Professor... Defending the Indefensible
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Professor, that senior S/O may indeed be making that much, but that is still less than the F/O's that other airlines use to do the same job. Have you factored that into your arcane calculations?
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Professor,
mate I also heard a story about a SO pulling in circa $180k, but I really cannot work out how. After three years with the company (ie. past probation wages) I made $83k all up as SO on the Jumbo (that was about 2 years ago, thereabouts). Maybe if you were "super senior" & managed to do just the high overtime US trips & worked well over your rostered flying? Even then I can't figure how you could get it over $150k? So yes they can get more than a FO on say the 737, but they are still cheaper than another FO on the Jumbo.
Anyway, this is causing further drift off topic, sorry...
mate I also heard a story about a SO pulling in circa $180k, but I really cannot work out how. After three years with the company (ie. past probation wages) I made $83k all up as SO on the Jumbo (that was about 2 years ago, thereabouts). Maybe if you were "super senior" & managed to do just the high overtime US trips & worked well over your rostered flying? Even then I can't figure how you could get it over $150k? So yes they can get more than a FO on say the 737, but they are still cheaper than another FO on the Jumbo.
Anyway, this is causing further drift off topic, sorry...
but that is still less than the F/O's that other airlines use to do the same job.
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Cost vs Income
The average S/O is in the hole for $100,000..or his parents are.
No matter what he/she earns this is a far greater debt than the average Med Graduate.It takes years for an S/O to pay this debt back.
They are entitled to their renumeration.Its what the market supports.
The debt is obscene not the income
Despite the current downturn there is still going to be a worldwide shortage of pilots in the coming years
Check out how many CPLs were issued in Australia last year.
No matter what he/she earns this is a far greater debt than the average Med Graduate.It takes years for an S/O to pay this debt back.
They are entitled to their renumeration.Its what the market supports.
The debt is obscene not the income
Despite the current downturn there is still going to be a worldwide shortage of pilots in the coming years
Check out how many CPLs were issued in Australia last year.
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"Dixon was reknowned for removing commercial passengers so he could sit in his favourite seat."
Surely this will lead to the downfall of QF.
"Dixon forgot he was an employee."
No, was CEO. And a very good one.
"Professor, that senior S/O may indeed be making that much, but that is still less than the F/O's that other airlines use to do the same job."
Actually, you will find F/O's at many competitor airlines earning less than this and in many cases, considerably less. You will also find captains at SOME airlines earning less than this flying similar aircraft. It is a huge disparity when you factor in the lack of flexibility of being an S/O at QF, considering they cannot act as F/O if required.
"The average S/O is in the hole for $100,000..or his parents are."
The market does not take this into account when determining salary. The business does not care if you financed your training at great cost or you were trained at tax payer expense in the RAAF.
"They are entitled to their renumeration."
And they are.
"Its what the market supports."
No, employees at incumbents like QF do not get paid in accordance with current market forces. They are the result of decades of industrial fat creating barriers to market forces. If QF were to re launch themselves next week with a clean sheet of paper, do you think they would be offering the pay and conditions currently being enjoyed? Vaustralia is subject to the same market forces as QF and yet they do not need to offer the same income levels as QF. Why is this?
Surely this will lead to the downfall of QF.
"Dixon forgot he was an employee."
No, was CEO. And a very good one.
"Professor, that senior S/O may indeed be making that much, but that is still less than the F/O's that other airlines use to do the same job."
Actually, you will find F/O's at many competitor airlines earning less than this and in many cases, considerably less. You will also find captains at SOME airlines earning less than this flying similar aircraft. It is a huge disparity when you factor in the lack of flexibility of being an S/O at QF, considering they cannot act as F/O if required.
"The average S/O is in the hole for $100,000..or his parents are."
The market does not take this into account when determining salary. The business does not care if you financed your training at great cost or you were trained at tax payer expense in the RAAF.
"They are entitled to their renumeration."
And they are.
"Its what the market supports."
No, employees at incumbents like QF do not get paid in accordance with current market forces. They are the result of decades of industrial fat creating barriers to market forces. If QF were to re launch themselves next week with a clean sheet of paper, do you think they would be offering the pay and conditions currently being enjoyed? Vaustralia is subject to the same market forces as QF and yet they do not need to offer the same income levels as QF. Why is this?
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take home pay can exceed $180,000 per annum for a senior S/O
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nice try professor
Depends on how many planes your new clean sheet airline intends to fly simultaneously.
6 aircraft = vaustralia rates
100 aircraft = vaustralia +++
If QF were to re launch themselves next week with a clean sheet of paper, do you think they would be offering the pay and conditions currently being enjoyed? Vaustralia is subject to the same market forces as QF and yet they do not need to offer the same income levels as QF. Why is this?
6 aircraft = vaustralia rates
100 aircraft = vaustralia +++
The Professor, Ken Borough et al,
What sort of ridiculous industry do we work in where people are critical of others for earning $X amount of money. Should we not all be striving for the same conditions as the "top earners". I feel like I've written something like this on pprune before so I'm probably better off banging my head against the wall but here goes anyway.
Just as an example, can you imagine an accountant working for a large accounting firm finding out that a co-worker with the exact same qualifications in another office was earning more. He/she wouldn't be trying to bring the other's salary DOWN to their level but rather bring his/hers UP to the same level.
Is this just the good old Australian tall poppy syndrome at its worst?
P.S. FWIW, $180k (which would be a small minority of S/Os) would be including allowances and 9% super and actual gross income without those two add-ons would be closer to $145k.
What sort of ridiculous industry do we work in where people are critical of others for earning $X amount of money. Should we not all be striving for the same conditions as the "top earners". I feel like I've written something like this on pprune before so I'm probably better off banging my head against the wall but here goes anyway.
Just as an example, can you imagine an accountant working for a large accounting firm finding out that a co-worker with the exact same qualifications in another office was earning more. He/she wouldn't be trying to bring the other's salary DOWN to their level but rather bring his/hers UP to the same level.
Is this just the good old Australian tall poppy syndrome at its worst?
P.S. FWIW, $180k (which would be a small minority of S/Os) would be including allowances and 9% super and actual gross income without those two add-ons would be closer to $145k.
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The annual pay for QF SO depends on what super division he/she is in. In Division 3 the super amount isn't included in gross income, whereas in div 6 super is included in gross income.
As an example, SO with 8+ years and about a 50/50 mix of european and US flights will make around $160,000 including allowances.
Div 3 pilot will have gross income of $160,000 with a notional $17000 (approx) paid into defined benefit super fund.
Div 6 pilot would show gross income of $177,000 on group certificate, this being salary and allowances of $160,000 plus super (13.5% x hourly rate x 1102 (hours flown))
As an example, SO with 8+ years and about a 50/50 mix of european and US flights will make around $160,000 including allowances.
Div 3 pilot will have gross income of $160,000 with a notional $17000 (approx) paid into defined benefit super fund.
Div 6 pilot would show gross income of $177,000 on group certificate, this being salary and allowances of $160,000 plus super (13.5% x hourly rate x 1102 (hours flown))
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Professor
You are light on information and heavy on assertions.Just because you say Dixon was a good CEO doesnt mean he was.A CEO who feels he has the right to usurp his customers for a seat has lost sight of just who and what he is.
Dixon created enormous executive wealth and had an enormous sense of entitlement.The APA comes to mind.Dixon and his breed were allowed to prosper over the last ten years.To a very large extent they are responsible for the mess we now find ouselves in.
Privatize the profit and socialize the losses.
The taxpayers will pay for this mess....as usual
Dixon created enormous executive wealth and had an enormous sense of entitlement.The APA comes to mind.Dixon and his breed were allowed to prosper over the last ten years.To a very large extent they are responsible for the mess we now find ouselves in.
Privatize the profit and socialize the losses.
The taxpayers will pay for this mess....as usual
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Virgin driver
“Sorry professor but I think you mean total income including allowances.” Correct, I am referring to the cost to the company.
Breakfast,
My hypothetical question was assuming a re-launch of an already existing airline. The TESNA example, in simple terms.
NOIP,
QF, under Dixon’s stewardship, has been one of the most profitable airlines in the world. He was not employed to win friends.
Transition,
“Should we not all be striving for . . . . “
You can strive for whatever you like. The market will pay what the market feels is necessary to attract the labor needed for the job. Once those barriers to genuine competition within the labor market have been removed, there will be massive change to the way QF mainline aircraft are crewed.
Blackgaurd,
“The taxpayers will pay for this mess....as usual”
Exactly what mess will be cleaned up by the taxpayers
“Sorry professor but I think you mean total income including allowances.” Correct, I am referring to the cost to the company.
Breakfast,
My hypothetical question was assuming a re-launch of an already existing airline. The TESNA example, in simple terms.
NOIP,
QF, under Dixon’s stewardship, has been one of the most profitable airlines in the world. He was not employed to win friends.
Transition,
“Should we not all be striving for . . . . “
You can strive for whatever you like. The market will pay what the market feels is necessary to attract the labor needed for the job. Once those barriers to genuine competition within the labor market have been removed, there will be massive change to the way QF mainline aircraft are crewed.
Blackgaurd,
“The taxpayers will pay for this mess....as usual”
Exactly what mess will be cleaned up by the taxpayers