Merged: Qantas:The Trashing Of A Brand
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Jetbest,
"The pay rates for QF pilots were not world-beatingly high, especially when considered as crew compliment for long-haul ops (Capt, F/O + 2x S/Os vs 2xCapts + 2xF/Os in almost every other airline)"
You will find many QF f/o's getting paid more than many of your competitor airline captains. The crewing of QF aircraft is neither efficient or competitive.
" . . flexible and motivated subset of the company's work force".
Flexible? Really. What changes are AIPA proposing to assist the airline during these troubled times?
"substandard conditions"
Substandard being anything less than your salary. Ever spoken to a new hire at Westjet?
". . . the fact that flight-crew pay is actaully a miniscule part of the total cost of operating the airline"
You will find QF pocketing 10's of millions of dollars per year in savings from Jetstar pilot salaries alone. This appears insignificant when washed across millions of CSM's but it is not something to be sneezed at.
QF will dramatically accelerate the transfer of flying to the lower cost unit as the downturn bites. Old mainline jets will be replaced with newer jetstar machines and mainline crew will be given a choice - Jetstar contract or the door. Dont be surprised if some Jetstar jets are re painted with the roo and fitted with QF look alike cabins.
"The pay rates for QF pilots were not world-beatingly high, especially when considered as crew compliment for long-haul ops (Capt, F/O + 2x S/Os vs 2xCapts + 2xF/Os in almost every other airline)"
You will find many QF f/o's getting paid more than many of your competitor airline captains. The crewing of QF aircraft is neither efficient or competitive.
" . . flexible and motivated subset of the company's work force".
Flexible? Really. What changes are AIPA proposing to assist the airline during these troubled times?
"substandard conditions"
Substandard being anything less than your salary. Ever spoken to a new hire at Westjet?
". . . the fact that flight-crew pay is actaully a miniscule part of the total cost of operating the airline"
You will find QF pocketing 10's of millions of dollars per year in savings from Jetstar pilot salaries alone. This appears insignificant when washed across millions of CSM's but it is not something to be sneezed at.
QF will dramatically accelerate the transfer of flying to the lower cost unit as the downturn bites. Old mainline jets will be replaced with newer jetstar machines and mainline crew will be given a choice - Jetstar contract or the door. Dont be surprised if some Jetstar jets are re painted with the roo and fitted with QF look alike cabins.
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Dont be surprised if some Jetstar jets are re painted with the roo and fitted with QF look alike cabins.
Cabin crew on the A380 are on different terms & conditions, but the technical crew aren't.
I would go as far to say that the first arrival of a J* aircraft in QF livery would see an immediate response from mainline crew.
Last edited by Mstr Caution; 26th Nov 2008 at 11:05.
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Re the JQ A330's - the rumour is they will come from the existing QF A330 fleet, not the cancelled A330 leases referred to by Dixon/Joyce.
If it's true, good for JQ, not so good for QF.
If it's true, good for JQ, not so good for QF.
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Think outside the square for a minute lads. Say JQ did not exist, one thing that not one of you have mentioned is where would that put Virgin? In a very good position thats where. The reality is the world of aviation changed with the LCC exploding on to the scene, and the traveller became very used to low cost travel, all of a sudden he/she had a choice of flying mainline mainly in cattle class, but has been also offered a choice to fly battery hen class for 500 bucks less, the result being JQ is going gangbusters, Virgin is struggling to keep up and Mainline is still servicing the UK and Europe as well as the US all of which are basically stuffed at the moment with the currency (and now the poms want $200 to leave their green and sacred land) as well as all the other problems raining down on our heads at the moment. So for you QF blokes it is now beyond anything you can do, LCC are not going to go away anytime soon, QF is pushing it uphill in the present climate, and we will see some mainline airlines in the world go into a spiral dive. But the one good thing going at the moment is that the joey is at least putting money into QF coffers, whilst had it been Virgin.................!? All the dummy spitting and accusations are not going to help, this is how it is, (and by the way this practice of some QF Skippers refusing a ride on the flight deck to a JQ driver trying to get to work does nothing for harmony, and serves the management well). The management loves to hear of stuff like that, divide and conquer, thats the spirit. I don't think QF and JQ will become a crossbreed, QF, will down the track, probably pall up with another viable mainline airline, and progress in another direction from there, it cannot be both mainline and a LCC at the same time and there is room for both. Nobody knows whats ahead for us all at the moment, at the best Australia has the best cabin on the "Titanic" and thats about it. Interesting times ahead.
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Rehash
Rather than passengers being transferred from mainline(when they have a choice)Jetstar has tapped into a market which would otherwise have used a bus to reach their destination.
The Professor as usual chooses rhetoric over substance.
Jetstar is going gangbusters is also an unsubstantiated piece of nonsense.There are 3 Jetstar entities and none of them is going gangbusters.particularly when customers have choice.
Jetstar has always been a vehicle designed to force down mainline costs.Having flown Jetstar out of necessity and not by choice it is fair to say that the operation is total crap.
We are going the way of America.A country where airlines are not known for service.We will end up having a third rate bus service in the sky with no choice at all of premium carrier.
There will always be a market for those who wish to pay a little more to enjoy the flying experience.
The Japanese are insulted by Jetstar.Even more so now that the yen has risen and they have more money to spend.The Japanese market has declined and the introduction of Jetstar has accelerated that decline.
Needing to travel to Osaka often I do so either via Singapore or HongKong.Jetstar has removed itself from all Japanese ports except NRT
because load factors were so poor.
The Professor as usual chooses rhetoric over substance.
Jetstar is going gangbusters is also an unsubstantiated piece of nonsense.There are 3 Jetstar entities and none of them is going gangbusters.particularly when customers have choice.
Jetstar has always been a vehicle designed to force down mainline costs.Having flown Jetstar out of necessity and not by choice it is fair to say that the operation is total crap.
We are going the way of America.A country where airlines are not known for service.We will end up having a third rate bus service in the sky with no choice at all of premium carrier.
There will always be a market for those who wish to pay a little more to enjoy the flying experience.
The Japanese are insulted by Jetstar.Even more so now that the yen has risen and they have more money to spend.The Japanese market has declined and the introduction of Jetstar has accelerated that decline.
Needing to travel to Osaka often I do so either via Singapore or HongKong.Jetstar has removed itself from all Japanese ports except NRT
because load factors were so poor.
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For the J* team reading this,
Just to put the emotions into perspective and to try and understand what QF staff feel think about this scenario for a moment....
Mini-Me decides that in the current climate J* does not go far enough and has a cost base too expensive just as AO did for Darth...
So he creates Air Mini-Me.....with a cost base even lower than J*.How he does that is academic but for the sake of the argument he does...
Now how would you think the current J* employees feel about the existence of Air Mini-me?
Do you think they would embrace them with open arms?
Do you think they would be posting complimentary comments on PPrune about Air Mini-Me taking routes that previously were done by J*?
Do you think they would be happy about Air Mini-Me employees accepting an EBA with lower pay and conditions that currently exist at J*?
You can argue that Air Mini-Me is here to stay and to complain continually is just sour grapes not to accept the situation......Sound familiar?
teresa green...I'm not so sure that it is a fait accompli that J* exists and that if it wasn't then the QF group would have slid down the path into extinction at all....
J* only exist when the punter has no choice.Who gives them ..or rather who takes away their choice?
None other than the creators of J* ....
The profit contribution of the J* group to the parent company is hardly earth shattering and is arguably a negative yet some here tell us that without J*, QF would have gone under by now....but for a moment imagine if all that money was spent on the parent company..
More and newer fuel efficient aircraft...whereas the parent company at the moment is stuck with older and less fuel efficient aircraft.Not only that but the gap is widening as J* get more aircraft and the average age of the parent company's fleet gets older.
A better cabin product and by that I mean a far better IFE system,better catering etc....
A better timetable and on time performance....older aircraft have more reliability issues...(the classic and the 767)....as well as looking tired to the pax.
Just to put the emotions into perspective and to try and understand what QF staff feel think about this scenario for a moment....
Mini-Me decides that in the current climate J* does not go far enough and has a cost base too expensive just as AO did for Darth...
So he creates Air Mini-Me.....with a cost base even lower than J*.How he does that is academic but for the sake of the argument he does...
Now how would you think the current J* employees feel about the existence of Air Mini-me?
Do you think they would embrace them with open arms?
Do you think they would be posting complimentary comments on PPrune about Air Mini-Me taking routes that previously were done by J*?
Do you think they would be happy about Air Mini-Me employees accepting an EBA with lower pay and conditions that currently exist at J*?
You can argue that Air Mini-Me is here to stay and to complain continually is just sour grapes not to accept the situation......Sound familiar?
teresa green...I'm not so sure that it is a fait accompli that J* exists and that if it wasn't then the QF group would have slid down the path into extinction at all....
J* only exist when the punter has no choice.Who gives them ..or rather who takes away their choice?
None other than the creators of J* ....
The profit contribution of the J* group to the parent company is hardly earth shattering and is arguably a negative yet some here tell us that without J*, QF would have gone under by now....but for a moment imagine if all that money was spent on the parent company..
More and newer fuel efficient aircraft...whereas the parent company at the moment is stuck with older and less fuel efficient aircraft.Not only that but the gap is widening as J* get more aircraft and the average age of the parent company's fleet gets older.
A better cabin product and by that I mean a far better IFE system,better catering etc....
A better timetable and on time performance....older aircraft have more reliability issues...(the classic and the 767)....as well as looking tired to the pax.
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Lowerlobe -
The problem with your argument is that J* is already Air Mini-me. They operate right at the edge in terms of minimum cabin crew on p!ss poor contracts, flight crew on an EBA that would be thrown out by QF mainline pilots, duty hours, administration support that is totally under resourced, limited engineering support compared to Daddy's company, too few ground staff that are run ragged etc etc. Need I go on?
Additionally, EGH was created as the J*/Air Mini-me ground support organisation that runs on the smell of an oily rag. And it is indeed a rag tag organisation that has largely aviation inexperienced and unqualified people driving power push units etc etc. You simply don't get any cheaper than this.
In summary, there just ain't any margin left to create a yet lower cost operation.
This is the bottom. We are going to have to live with it or sink.
The problem with your argument is that J* is already Air Mini-me. They operate right at the edge in terms of minimum cabin crew on p!ss poor contracts, flight crew on an EBA that would be thrown out by QF mainline pilots, duty hours, administration support that is totally under resourced, limited engineering support compared to Daddy's company, too few ground staff that are run ragged etc etc. Need I go on?
Additionally, EGH was created as the J*/Air Mini-me ground support organisation that runs on the smell of an oily rag. And it is indeed a rag tag organisation that has largely aviation inexperienced and unqualified people driving power push units etc etc. You simply don't get any cheaper than this.
In summary, there just ain't any margin left to create a yet lower cost operation.
This is the bottom. We are going to have to live with it or sink.
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You will find QF pocketing 10's of millions of dollars per year in savings from Jetstar pilot salaries alone. This appears insignificant when washed across millions of CSM's but it is not something to be sneezed at.
What you and other management fail to look at or seem to understand is the huge cost of the inverted pyramid.Compared to other airlines this one has an inordinately high number of middle and upper management...not to mention the cost and bonuses received by members of the board...yet you seem to fixate on the people who get the job done.
mrs nomer.....I knew someone would try and suggest that J* could not be any cheaper.I said that a lower cost base as part of my argument was academic but it was the concept of a cheaper entity that was the heart of the issue...
We all thought (including Darth) that AO was the end of it..but no J* was to be AO markII.There is no reason especially given the current climate and corporate morals that an even lower cost base is not possible...
He ditched AO so what makes you think there is any sentimentality to either J* or even QF?
To these people it is only paper...
If you want even one idea that could make another airline cheaper....how about all crew being hired and based off shore.They have done it with cabin crew so what makes you think that they couldn't do it with pilots?
The only real sticking issue with lowering costs is how far they are willing to push.If you think they care about us or you then you really don't understand their mentality.
mrs nomer...So you didn't answer my question..
How would existing J* employees react to the new employees and conditions of Air Mini-Me if it eventuated?
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Mrs.Nomer..We will sink?
Get with the programme...we are sunk
Declining wages and conditions in real terms.
A fleet thats falling apart
A brand that is now associated with maintenance problems,a crap IFE and on time departure record that is farcical.
The shareprice is at a ten year low.
Staff morale non existant
By any benchmark Dixons experiment is a total failure.
Qantas is trashed..thank you scrotum face..now FOG!!!
Declining wages and conditions in real terms.
A fleet thats falling apart
A brand that is now associated with maintenance problems,a crap IFE and on time departure record that is farcical.
The shareprice is at a ten year low.
Staff morale non existant
By any benchmark Dixons experiment is a total failure.
Qantas is trashed..thank you scrotum face..now FOG!!!
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QF Network
Qantas flies to:
London,Frankfurt,Singapore,Hong Kong,Bangkok,Mumbai,Manilla,JoBurg,Honolulu,Lax,San Francisco,Auckland Noumea,Shanghai,Beijing and Narita.
Ten countries
Two or three of those are under threat.
Thats not a network thats an effing joke!!!!
Oops!..as of yesterday Buenos Aires.
11 countries
London,Frankfurt,Singapore,Hong Kong,Bangkok,Mumbai,Manilla,JoBurg,Honolulu,Lax,San Francisco,Auckland Noumea,Shanghai,Beijing and Narita.
Ten countries
Two or three of those are under threat.
Thats not a network thats an effing joke!!!!
Oops!..as of yesterday Buenos Aires.
11 countries
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Of course it is only the engineers, pilots and cabin crew who are grossly overpaid in Qantas.
If only an airline could operate without these annoyingly vital staff. QF management love to compare these groups salaries with the lowest paying competitor they can find. How do we compare with Air France, B.A, Cathay and J.A.L. you might ask...well don't ask management, they don't like the answer to that.
Now a question for the QF board.
Did you bother to scour the entire world for management candidates (executive and middle management) during the last 10 years or so?
Lets take India as one example, there must be hundreds, if not thousands of executives already running large and complex companies. I'm sure many of these people are at least as qualified as Geoff Dixon to run Qantas. I'm also pretty sure plenty of them would accept a lesser package than the incumbent.
Why was this option not considered?
Answer:
"Let's keep this in house boys, we don't want foreigners coming in and getting their hands on our pot of gold!"
If only an airline could operate without these annoyingly vital staff. QF management love to compare these groups salaries with the lowest paying competitor they can find. How do we compare with Air France, B.A, Cathay and J.A.L. you might ask...well don't ask management, they don't like the answer to that.
Now a question for the QF board.
Did you bother to scour the entire world for management candidates (executive and middle management) during the last 10 years or so?
Lets take India as one example, there must be hundreds, if not thousands of executives already running large and complex companies. I'm sure many of these people are at least as qualified as Geoff Dixon to run Qantas. I'm also pretty sure plenty of them would accept a lesser package than the incumbent.
Why was this option not considered?
Answer:
"Let's keep this in house boys, we don't want foreigners coming in and getting their hands on our pot of gold!"
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Packrat - No arguments. Dixon has severely trashed the Qantas brand. But if you think things are bad now, just watch Joyce in operation once he is officially handed the golden hatchet next week.
LL - AO was a half baked and badly thought out attempt to run a low cost operation. It was never going to succeed.
Regarding foreign based tech crews. How would this REALISTICALLY work for the domestic J* operation.
Speculation is one thing, but look sensibly at the mechanics of trying to do it - Where are these crews coming from to achieve a significant cost saving and make the entity cheaper? Having had some experience in this area with crews from certain countries where standards are, shall we say, dubious, it just wouldn't work DOMESTICALLY in Australia.
You're stuck with this J* arrangement LL - The question doesn't need answering, we are now Air Mini-me.
J* in 2009 = Qantas in 2020. That's the reality.
LL - AO was a half baked and badly thought out attempt to run a low cost operation. It was never going to succeed.
Regarding foreign based tech crews. How would this REALISTICALLY work for the domestic J* operation.
Speculation is one thing, but look sensibly at the mechanics of trying to do it - Where are these crews coming from to achieve a significant cost saving and make the entity cheaper? Having had some experience in this area with crews from certain countries where standards are, shall we say, dubious, it just wouldn't work DOMESTICALLY in Australia.
You're stuck with this J* arrangement LL - The question doesn't need answering, we are now Air Mini-me.
J* in 2009 = Qantas in 2020. That's the reality.
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LL - AO was a half baked and badly thought out attempt to run a low cost operation. It was never going to succeed.
Regarding foreign based tech crews. How would this REALISTICALLY work for the domestic J* operation.
They are paxed over to Sydney/Mel/Bne and they work ....simple.
They have overnights and after a week or so when they have finished their trip they are paxed back to AKL....in Y/C both ways of course.
So my question still stands ..but if you don't or won't answer it I know why.
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Dixon's Review
Dixon is a failure and his airline is going down the same road.
All those aircraft on order and no where to send them.
The smartest men in the room(sic)didnt see the downturn coming.
They were blinded by greed.
Those that would blame union s for these circumstances need ot take into account the wage freezes accepted during 911 and SARS.Unions within Qantas have been conciliatory.
Dixon and his gangsters took advantage of this and betrayed employee trust.
Egoistic,morally bankrupt corporate thugs who have by any benchmark failed.That is how they are now seen.
Mini Me and The Chairmen will no doubt be offering more of the same.
Clifford...a man in his twilight years..... has already labelled Qantas unions as recalcitrant .
How about some conciliation?.Declare the war over.
Lets get on with the business of rebuilding and saving Qantas
The dinosaurs(management) never learn...they are doomed to extinction.
The sooner the better
All those aircraft on order and no where to send them.
The smartest men in the room(sic)didnt see the downturn coming.
They were blinded by greed.
Those that would blame union s for these circumstances need ot take into account the wage freezes accepted during 911 and SARS.Unions within Qantas have been conciliatory.
Dixon and his gangsters took advantage of this and betrayed employee trust.
Egoistic,morally bankrupt corporate thugs who have by any benchmark failed.That is how they are now seen.
Mini Me and The Chairmen will no doubt be offering more of the same.
Clifford...a man in his twilight years..... has already labelled Qantas unions as recalcitrant .
How about some conciliation?.Declare the war over.
Lets get on with the business of rebuilding and saving Qantas
The dinosaurs(management) never learn...they are doomed to extinction.
The sooner the better
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"JQ has always been a vehicle to bring down mainline prices". Crap. QF could not continue to charge what it liked, as it has for so long,especially short haul. The gravy train has come to a grinding halt PruneZeuss, like it or not. The world was heading towards LCCs and they were springing up like mushrooms, if QF had not created JQ then Loose Rivet Airlines would have. I have never worked for JQ or had much to do with it, but use it often and have few complaints. QF I also use and no complaints there either. "The Japanese don't like JQ," I personally found in my time they didnt like QF all that much either, not enough respect from C/C was their travel agents favorite comment.
The average punter does not give a rats about mainline, LCC's or whatever, he/she is only interested in getting safely to their destination, in some sort of comfort, at the cheapest price available, and that is now the way of the world. Check the Financial Times PruneZuess, JQ is the only performer at the moment, Qantas Link is doing ok but the big fella is not. (This is of course counting on QF beancounters giving out the correct information) (but if the travel agents specials are anything to go on and they are getting increasingly generous then there is some truth in it.)
The average punter does not give a rats about mainline, LCC's or whatever, he/she is only interested in getting safely to their destination, in some sort of comfort, at the cheapest price available, and that is now the way of the world. Check the Financial Times PruneZuess, JQ is the only performer at the moment, Qantas Link is doing ok but the big fella is not. (This is of course counting on QF beancounters giving out the correct information) (but if the travel agents specials are anything to go on and they are getting increasingly generous then there is some truth in it.)
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This will be the future direction of both Jetstar and Qantas, off shoring of every possible job and pressure on Canberra to water down the Qantas Sale Act to facilitate this.
What with the new Labour Laws about to be introduced into Australia, there goes Management's perogative to a large extent.
Why do you think Dixon kept Jetconnect on life support?
There is now a National Government in place in New Zealand.
They will futher expand on their equivalent of WorkChoices.
That in conjunction with the Mutual Recognition legislation will ,I believe see a large increase in New Zealand based Qantas group entities as a stop gap measure until Management get their way with the Sale Act which is presently curtailing their plans.
What next?
Well I would suggest another take over tilt for the company once the economic horizon looks better and I'd suggest the direction this equity bid will come from will be the middle east.
Watch this space.
.
What with the new Labour Laws about to be introduced into Australia, there goes Management's perogative to a large extent.
Why do you think Dixon kept Jetconnect on life support?
There is now a National Government in place in New Zealand.
They will futher expand on their equivalent of WorkChoices.
That in conjunction with the Mutual Recognition legislation will ,I believe see a large increase in New Zealand based Qantas group entities as a stop gap measure until Management get their way with the Sale Act which is presently curtailing their plans.
What next?
Well I would suggest another take over tilt for the company once the economic horizon looks better and I'd suggest the direction this equity bid will come from will be the middle east.
Watch this space.
.
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It's all about staff.
Im X AN staffer, so Im never going to be a fan of QF, bearing that in mind.
Using the Qantas reputation about the safety record as a sales pitch is a flawed in the long term, as aircraft have changed and they don't fall out of the sky anymore with the regularity of the 60's and 70's.
So you come back to quality/attitude of service as the only real selling point. The concentration of thought from CEO's about shareholder value has been at the determent of running the business. As a regular user of QF , to regular for my liking, I find that the staff have on the whole become more disgruntled with the airline overtime. You operate in Asia and it will be an uphill battle for
QF to have a workforce that have the quality of your competitors.
Using the Qantas reputation about the safety record as a sales pitch is a flawed in the long term, as aircraft have changed and they don't fall out of the sky anymore with the regularity of the 60's and 70's.
So you come back to quality/attitude of service as the only real selling point. The concentration of thought from CEO's about shareholder value has been at the determent of running the business. As a regular user of QF , to regular for my liking, I find that the staff have on the whole become more disgruntled with the airline overtime. You operate in Asia and it will be an uphill battle for
QF to have a workforce that have the quality of your competitors.