Merged: Qantas:The Trashing Of A Brand
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CCB,
The other rumour floating around is that JQ are getting more A330's including the deferred/cancelled QF aircraft to operate international sectors previously done by QF mainline.
Domestically, there is talk of Broome and Uluru/Alice Springs.
The other rumour floating around is that JQ are getting more A330's including the deferred/cancelled QF aircraft to operate international sectors previously done by QF mainline.
Domestically, there is talk of Broome and Uluru/Alice Springs.
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In the face of recalcitrant unions
How about if the management wasn't so arrogant the unions would not have had so much ammunition....
If the company worked with their employees instead of against them and put the money that was required to start and run J* into mainline instead then we would have an unbeatable airline....but keep on blaming the unions because they're an easy scapegoat when you don't want to face reality.
Ken I imagine you're blaming the unions for the world wide economic mess as well as cancer,global warming and most other things too.
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Honolulu and Hedging
QF fuel is hedged at a higher than current price......much higher.
767s to be removed from HNL and HNL handed over to Jet* in order to retire the older workhorses.
Load factor on QF services to HNL....88.6%
Load factor on Jet *to HNL 63.4%
Now the punters have no choice.
Qantas is on the road to perdition...in ten years it will exist in name only.
An oxidized bronze plaque on some building in Mascot is all that will remain.
767s to be removed from HNL and HNL handed over to Jet* in order to retire the older workhorses.
Load factor on QF services to HNL....88.6%
Load factor on Jet *to HNL 63.4%
Now the punters have no choice.
Qantas is on the road to perdition...in ten years it will exist in name only.
An oxidized bronze plaque on some building in Mascot is all that will remain.
nomer
Read post #4. They were already destined for Jetstar. You can put that one to bed for sure.
CCB,
The other rumour floating around is that JQ are getting more A330's including the deferred/cancelled QF aircraft to operate international sectors previously done by QF mainline.
Domestically, there is talk of Broome and Uluru/Alice Springs.
The other rumour floating around is that JQ are getting more A330's including the deferred/cancelled QF aircraft to operate international sectors previously done by QF mainline.
Domestically, there is talk of Broome and Uluru/Alice Springs.
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Ken,
Now that the new Industrial Laws of the land have been announced how is Jetstar going to fare with the inevitable rise of Unions in their ranks?
The gap will narrow thanks entirely to managements dogmatic approach to staff relations.
Now that the new Industrial Laws of the land have been announced how is Jetstar going to fare with the inevitable rise of Unions in their ranks?
The gap will narrow thanks entirely to managements dogmatic approach to staff relations.
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Qantas management can only make bad/stupid/ill-informed decisions whereas their Sky Deity pilots only ever make good ones.
Hmmmmm....
And the entire QF Board over the years has failed to notice that if only they would listen to the AIPA spokespersons who post here regularly then the Group could double its profits.
Hmmmmm....
I'd suggest that the ignorance and reclaitrance of the AIPA people here is proof initself of why Qantas needed Jetstar. Here's it in a nutshel folks: if you think Qantas WITH Jetstar is bad,.....I pray you and your sheltered workshop colleagues never find out what Qantas WITHOUT Jetstar would be like.
Hmmmmm....
And the entire QF Board over the years has failed to notice that if only they would listen to the AIPA spokespersons who post here regularly then the Group could double its profits.
Hmmmmm....
I'd suggest that the ignorance and reclaitrance of the AIPA people here is proof initself of why Qantas needed Jetstar. Here's it in a nutshel folks: if you think Qantas WITH Jetstar is bad,.....I pray you and your sheltered workshop colleagues never find out what Qantas WITHOUT Jetstar would be like.
EBA's are not only signed off by unions, it is the company as well.
Management can't complain about T&C's since they've been agreeing to them off for years!
P.S. The Aus stated that the 2 A330's to be deferred are Jetstar's!
Management can't complain about T&C's since they've been agreeing to them off for years!
P.S. The Aus stated that the 2 A330's to be deferred are Jetstar's!
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Ken Borough Mindset
Many management individuals have a mindset that allows them to believe that they have a divine right to rule.
They have little empathy or rmeorse for decisions they make as they truly see themselves as omnipotent.
Employees should simply obey their commands.If employees resist they are threatened and intimidated by whatever means management considers necessary.
They fail to realize that a modern workforce is generally well educated and have a perception of what is fair and just.
So we have conflict which is generally bad for the business.
Qantas is a perfect example.Employees are seen as being difficult beacause they are not compliant.
Employees on the other hand see managemnet as inept,distant and arrogant.
Qantas has suffered enormously during the course of this conflict.
Conciliation of some form is crucial if Qantas is to survive.
The days of combative mangement styles should have finished in the early 20th century.
If managment and employees of any corporation do not ocoperate then the business is doomed
Ken Borough is a management dinosaur who is about to become extinct because he and his ilk have failed/cannot to adapt
They have little empathy or rmeorse for decisions they make as they truly see themselves as omnipotent.
Employees should simply obey their commands.If employees resist they are threatened and intimidated by whatever means management considers necessary.
They fail to realize that a modern workforce is generally well educated and have a perception of what is fair and just.
So we have conflict which is generally bad for the business.
Qantas is a perfect example.Employees are seen as being difficult beacause they are not compliant.
Employees on the other hand see managemnet as inept,distant and arrogant.
Qantas has suffered enormously during the course of this conflict.
Conciliation of some form is crucial if Qantas is to survive.
The days of combative mangement styles should have finished in the early 20th century.
If managment and employees of any corporation do not ocoperate then the business is doomed
Ken Borough is a management dinosaur who is about to become extinct because he and his ilk have failed/cannot to adapt
Last edited by prunezeuss; 26th Nov 2008 at 06:51.
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genex....
Try and think outside the box....Do you think that of all the thousands of employees that are in the group that pilots are the only ones to be critical of the decisions made by management and the board or do you think pilots are the only employees of an airline?
genex .....Have you ever considered or understood that Qantas not only existed but operated very nicely for so many years without J*.
So what makes you think that Qantas could not exist and be profitable without J* today...
If the money that was used to start up J* and is used to prop it up today was spent on the mainline product we would be doing brilliantly thankyou very much....but we appreciate your thought as to our well being.
Try and think outside the box....Do you think that of all the thousands of employees that are in the group that pilots are the only ones to be critical of the decisions made by management and the board or do you think pilots are the only employees of an airline?
if you think Qantas WITH Jetstar is bad,.....I pray you and your sheltered workshop colleagues never find out what Qantas WITHOUT Jetstar would be like.
So what makes you think that Qantas could not exist and be profitable without J* today...
If the money that was used to start up J* and is used to prop it up today was spent on the mainline product we would be doing brilliantly thankyou very much....but we appreciate your thought as to our well being.
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Luckily Dixon and his team thought of Jetstar. As others have said without having invested millions of dollars of mainline profit in JQ, Qantas would be but a distant memory now.
It will only be a matter of days before Cathay, Singair, BA, Luftansa, JAL and many other 'legacy' carriers will collapse. The management of these airlines do not have the amazing insight, to invest all their profit in a huge no-frills airline, that can then cannibalize the original airline.
Only non-management fools are incapable of grasping the universal logic behind this world beating scheme.
It will only be a matter of days before Cathay, Singair, BA, Luftansa, JAL and many other 'legacy' carriers will collapse. The management of these airlines do not have the amazing insight, to invest all their profit in a huge no-frills airline, that can then cannibalize the original airline.
Only non-management fools are incapable of grasping the universal logic behind this world beating scheme.
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Luckily Dixon and his team thought of Jetstar.
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I'm going to risk feeding a troll.
Ken, these are the same recalcitrant unions that Qantas used to make how much profit? Bit over 1 B for billion, wasn't it? Or was that all due to management? No, that's right. It was the huge profit contribution that Jetstar made. Sorry, I forgot.
Ken, amuse us all and put a real number, dollar wise, on a profit figure that Qantas could have made last year if they had the employers nirvana of a compliant workforce, ala "Ken's industrial laws", and let us know what those laws would be. I'm sure a couple of pilots can share a room at Motel 6 at Inglewood next LAX trip.
Ken, these are the same recalcitrant unions that Qantas used to make how much profit? Bit over 1 B for billion, wasn't it? Or was that all due to management? No, that's right. It was the huge profit contribution that Jetstar made. Sorry, I forgot.
Ken, amuse us all and put a real number, dollar wise, on a profit figure that Qantas could have made last year if they had the employers nirvana of a compliant workforce, ala "Ken's industrial laws", and let us know what those laws would be. I'm sure a couple of pilots can share a room at Motel 6 at Inglewood next LAX trip.
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The only thing that amazes me reading this drivel is that Qantas has a business AT ALL given the amount of vitriol directed at it and its management here.
Perhaps some of you should be wondering about job security in a global recession, not sabotaging the business because you do not like the managers.
Jetstar is here, get over it! Some of you are beginning to sound like those you knock who go on and on about a particular year in the 80's that shall remain nameless with your incessant Jetstar jibes.
I sincerely hope for all our sakes that QF flight decks are not the den of depression and despondancy which is reflected here. I suspect they are not.
Of course if you don't like it you can do something about it and leave, instead of whinging anonomously.
Finally, reading this I cannot believe that Jetstar pilots are joining AIPA.....
Perhaps some of you should be wondering about job security in a global recession, not sabotaging the business because you do not like the managers.
Jetstar is here, get over it! Some of you are beginning to sound like those you knock who go on and on about a particular year in the 80's that shall remain nameless with your incessant Jetstar jibes.
I sincerely hope for all our sakes that QF flight decks are not the den of depression and despondancy which is reflected here. I suspect they are not.
Of course if you don't like it you can do something about it and leave, instead of whinging anonomously.
Finally, reading this I cannot believe that Jetstar pilots are joining AIPA.....
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Here we Go
Ken Borough has a colleague...VH JJW......Another one who is just slightly right of Mussolini.
This is the 21st century....the us and them war is supposed to be over.
We are all living on the same planet in the same global economy struggling for survival.
What do we get ?...2 dinosaurs who stilll think its 1886.
Management and employees need to be on the same page.If they arent disaster follows.
Qantas management have made some appalling decisions but turn around and blame non compliant unions.At Qantas there is a manager for every 58 employees and all but a few are inept and deaf to the voices of staff.Very few are as educated as the people they manage.They are therefore found to be incompetent very quickly.
AJ needs to put a very big broom through the whole place or he will be the last qantas CEO.
Why? because there wont be any Qantas.
Compass I and II gone!!
Ansett..gone!!!
Impulse...gone!!!
Qantas is next......conspiracy theory anyone?
Australia will not have a premium airline to call its own and nobody will give a rats rear end
This is the 21st century....the us and them war is supposed to be over.
We are all living on the same planet in the same global economy struggling for survival.
What do we get ?...2 dinosaurs who stilll think its 1886.
Management and employees need to be on the same page.If they arent disaster follows.
Qantas management have made some appalling decisions but turn around and blame non compliant unions.At Qantas there is a manager for every 58 employees and all but a few are inept and deaf to the voices of staff.Very few are as educated as the people they manage.They are therefore found to be incompetent very quickly.
AJ needs to put a very big broom through the whole place or he will be the last qantas CEO.
Why? because there wont be any Qantas.
Compass I and II gone!!
Ansett..gone!!!
Impulse...gone!!!
Qantas is next......conspiracy theory anyone?
Australia will not have a premium airline to call its own and nobody will give a rats rear end
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Reeltime....Very well said....clever and with just the right amount of facetiousness
VH-JJW... I imagine you feel that the banks that have gone under and the ones around the world that needed a bail out were as a result of the people on the floor and not the genii that grace our board rooms...
Do you really think it is just Qantas pilots that can see why J* was born....or should I say adopted.
VH-JJW... I imagine you feel that the banks that have gone under and the ones around the world that needed a bail out were as a result of the people on the floor and not the genii that grace our board rooms...
Do you really think it is just Qantas pilots that can see why J* was born....or should I say adopted.
Ken, Genex, JJW and others...
Most QF pilots recognise the 'benefits to the group' of Jetstar; it's the way management went about it which has created the vitriol.
QF and its pilots had found solutions to every issue/ initiative/ disagreement/ fleet change/ efficiency target in the company's history; only one short strike about rostering/seniority over forty years ago! (confirmation please anyone?) QF pilots were the most non-aggressive, flexible and motivated subset of the company's work force. The pay rates for QF pilots were not world-beatingly high, especially when considered as crew compliment for long-haul ops (Capt, F/O + 2x S/Os vs 2xCapts + 2xF/Os in almost every other airline) and the very slow progression typical of the average QF-pilot's career. Even after privatisation, QF weathered adversity and even prospered when others failed.
Then Qantas;
- bought a stuggling small airline (whose pilots were all applying/had applied to QF) and propped it up,
- offered them new jets under substandard conditions with the threat that someone else would get them if the pilots didn't agree,
- watched Ansett collapse and suddenly had a market flooded with pilots understandably so desperate for a job that they would pay for their endorsements,
- segmented the brand and used QF resources to ensure the cost-base of the new baby looked unbeatably low, (Virgin didn't get that kind of leg-up)
- managers proceded to bad-mouth virtually everything about QF's hitherto loyal front-enders, and
- actively obstructed their inclusion in the 'solution' despite past practice and EBA assurances that QF pilots would be consulted if a new business model was being considered.
Now, given that;
- the supposed pay difference has narrowed substantially (eg Jetstar's latest, prematurely re-opened and deviously passed EBA), and
- the fact that flight-crew pay is actaully a miniscule part of the total cost of operating the airline, and
- the fact that all those group pilots could still have been employed into the QF group with consultation and a clearly-precedented 'win-win' (company phrase- not mine) on terms,
WHY is it so unfathomable that QF pilots might be disenfranchised with management on so many levels!!!
I've said it before; what happens forward of a flight deck door is all part of the QF group's product and should be accessible to all the group's pilots. Unlike the various cabin service options, piloting is ALL full service!
The great and possibly unquantifiable factor is this; do the management really know the hidden yet very real costs of their decisions? An apparently much easier question to answer is; if it can't be shown on a balance sheet, do they even care?
QF and its pilots had found solutions to every issue/ initiative/ disagreement/ fleet change/ efficiency target in the company's history; only one short strike about rostering/seniority over forty years ago! (confirmation please anyone?) QF pilots were the most non-aggressive, flexible and motivated subset of the company's work force. The pay rates for QF pilots were not world-beatingly high, especially when considered as crew compliment for long-haul ops (Capt, F/O + 2x S/Os vs 2xCapts + 2xF/Os in almost every other airline) and the very slow progression typical of the average QF-pilot's career. Even after privatisation, QF weathered adversity and even prospered when others failed.
Then Qantas;
- bought a stuggling small airline (whose pilots were all applying/had applied to QF) and propped it up,
- offered them new jets under substandard conditions with the threat that someone else would get them if the pilots didn't agree,
- watched Ansett collapse and suddenly had a market flooded with pilots understandably so desperate for a job that they would pay for their endorsements,
- segmented the brand and used QF resources to ensure the cost-base of the new baby looked unbeatably low, (Virgin didn't get that kind of leg-up)
- managers proceded to bad-mouth virtually everything about QF's hitherto loyal front-enders, and
- actively obstructed their inclusion in the 'solution' despite past practice and EBA assurances that QF pilots would be consulted if a new business model was being considered.
Now, given that;
- the supposed pay difference has narrowed substantially (eg Jetstar's latest, prematurely re-opened and deviously passed EBA), and
- the fact that flight-crew pay is actaully a miniscule part of the total cost of operating the airline, and
- the fact that all those group pilots could still have been employed into the QF group with consultation and a clearly-precedented 'win-win' (company phrase- not mine) on terms,
WHY is it so unfathomable that QF pilots might be disenfranchised with management on so many levels!!!
I've said it before; what happens forward of a flight deck door is all part of the QF group's product and should be accessible to all the group's pilots. Unlike the various cabin service options, piloting is ALL full service!
The great and possibly unquantifiable factor is this; do the management really know the hidden yet very real costs of their decisions? An apparently much easier question to answer is; if it can't be shown on a balance sheet, do they even care?