Merged: Qantas:The Trashing Of A Brand
Join Date: Oct 2007
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PruneZuess they will be back. Tourism is like everything else, it goes in cycles, right now the Middle East is the flavour, next year it will be someplace else, plenty of Arabs, South Africans, Kiwis, buzzing around QLD at the present time, and they are not manipulated into buying in marked, overpriced dutyfree shops and using only certain bus companies and hotels (all owned by guess who). Next time they come back I hope they are free to travel as they wish, instead of being herded like sheep, I used to feel sorry for them.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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oicur12, to say nothing about the muscles in your legs. My legs used to shake and cramp, I could barely walk sometimes, especially if you flew all day.. no wonder my undercarriage is stuffed now.
Victor B1a
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My Thoughts!
Flew Qantaslink to BME from PTH and back today. Service good and both arrivals were good in that we walked off the aircraft.
What is the bitch here?
Flown with them for two decates with no problems.
Suggest you all get a grip.
Victor B1a
What is the bitch here?
Flown with them for two decates with no problems.
Suggest you all get a grip.
Victor B1a
Victor B1a
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Flying.
I am an ex-mlitary pilot.
I fly with many airlines worldwide.
We did not have to have cabin staff to look after the self loading luggaqe.We had bombs.
Who do reckon is the best with Pax.?
My bet is Singapore.
Victor B1a
I fly with many airlines worldwide.
We did not have to have cabin staff to look after the self loading luggaqe.We had bombs.
Who do reckon is the best with Pax.?
My bet is Singapore.
Victor B1a
Jetbest, from Jetsbest
So you can count pages; congratulations.
It seems there is no acknowledgement that;
- the contract is fat because it's been refined, with agreement between both parties, over many years,
- at least half the clauses which make the contract fat are company-specified protections/exceptions/obligations on its pilots,
- the other half are there for good, if reciprocal reasons too,
- despite your example I also know many who get paid more than me and work less days/stick hours than me despite their slimmer contracts,
- it actually worked pretty well and consultatively until 'the powers' decided to re-invent the wheel, hence
- my original answer to 'why the vitriol?'
Hard done by? No. Reality as I and many others see it? Yes. Sensible management tactic? Time will tell.
Prof, are you out there? You must be able to counter-answer?
It seems there is no acknowledgement that;
- the contract is fat because it's been refined, with agreement between both parties, over many years,
- at least half the clauses which make the contract fat are company-specified protections/exceptions/obligations on its pilots,
- the other half are there for good, if reciprocal reasons too,
- despite your example I also know many who get paid more than me and work less days/stick hours than me despite their slimmer contracts,
- it actually worked pretty well and consultatively until 'the powers' decided to re-invent the wheel, hence
- my original answer to 'why the vitriol?'
Hard done by? No. Reality as I and many others see it? Yes. Sensible management tactic? Time will tell.
Prof, are you out there? You must be able to counter-answer?
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Joyce States The Obvious
Allan Joyce has admitted that the public perception of Qantas and its safety record have been battered by recent events.
A profound insight into a business that has been pounded by managerial greed and incomptence.
Mr.Joyce appears to be offering more of the same...stupidity!
FOA!!!!
A profound insight into a business that has been pounded by managerial greed and incomptence.
Mr.Joyce appears to be offering more of the same...stupidity!
FOA!!!!
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Globe's Changed Power Centre
America is in decline.
Europe is in recession and the EU has lost its way.
The 21st Century will belong to Asia.
Why would Qantas want to merge with an airline not in Asia?
Qantas management have always had difficulty negotiaitng the Asian business Psyche.
The UK and BA are a known quantity.
BA is suffering from years of managerial incompetence and the monetary problems of its consumer base..Europe.
Qantas needs to merge with a healthy Asian Carrier in order to move forward and capitalise on its unique geographical location.
The Jetstar investment in Vietnam(Pacific Partners) is losing large amounts money.
Qantas needs to increase its holding in this company and aggressively grow the business as a platform for Asian expansion.
Management arent up to the task.Hence the foreplay with BA.
Unfortunately for Qantas there are no Asian Carriers that need Qantas as a bed partner.
What Qantas needs and what it wants are not coincidental.
There are opportunities that exist now that wont last.
Management need to be swift and visionary.Something they are not known for.
The Clifford Joyce team is already shaping up as the odd couple.
By the time they understand what is happening now...it will be too late.
History will not view Dixon well.He failed on so many fronts and has cost Qantas its future.
Joyce is merely the caretaker of a company imploding
Europe is in recession and the EU has lost its way.
The 21st Century will belong to Asia.
Why would Qantas want to merge with an airline not in Asia?
Qantas management have always had difficulty negotiaitng the Asian business Psyche.
The UK and BA are a known quantity.
BA is suffering from years of managerial incompetence and the monetary problems of its consumer base..Europe.
Qantas needs to merge with a healthy Asian Carrier in order to move forward and capitalise on its unique geographical location.
The Jetstar investment in Vietnam(Pacific Partners) is losing large amounts money.
Qantas needs to increase its holding in this company and aggressively grow the business as a platform for Asian expansion.
Management arent up to the task.Hence the foreplay with BA.
Unfortunately for Qantas there are no Asian Carriers that need Qantas as a bed partner.
What Qantas needs and what it wants are not coincidental.
There are opportunities that exist now that wont last.
Management need to be swift and visionary.Something they are not known for.
The Clifford Joyce team is already shaping up as the odd couple.
By the time they understand what is happening now...it will be too late.
History will not view Dixon well.He failed on so many fronts and has cost Qantas its future.
Joyce is merely the caretaker of a company imploding
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Possible alternate partners
Just a suggestion, but why doesn't Qantas merge with Philipines Airlines or Garuda?
The way Dixon has run down the company over the years they wouldn't want to lower their standards.
The way Dixon has run down the company over the years they wouldn't want to lower their standards.
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Jetsbest you Quoted.
- the contract is fat because it's been refined, with agreement between both parties, over many years,
- at least half the clauses which make the contract fat are company-specified protections/exceptions/obligations on its pilots,
- the other half are there for good, if reciprocal reasons too.
Jetsbest,Sir Humphrey Appleby of Yes Prime Minister fame would be proud of your justification of your 655 page EBA.How you can justify having over 600 pages of T/C more than other world carriers beggars belief.
The reason that EBA 8 was put up was to try and bring a unweildy document into the 21st century.It was still over 200 pages but was voted down as being to radical
I hope that your new Union leadership trys to convince the QF Pilot group of the folly of there ways but only time will tell. 2009 will be a interesting year.
- the contract is fat because it's been refined, with agreement between both parties, over many years,
- at least half the clauses which make the contract fat are company-specified protections/exceptions/obligations on its pilots,
- the other half are there for good, if reciprocal reasons too.
Jetsbest,Sir Humphrey Appleby of Yes Prime Minister fame would be proud of your justification of your 655 page EBA.How you can justify having over 600 pages of T/C more than other world carriers beggars belief.
The reason that EBA 8 was put up was to try and bring a unweildy document into the 21st century.It was still over 200 pages but was voted down as being to radicalI hope that your new Union leadership trys to convince the QF Pilot group of the folly of there ways but only time will tell. 2009 will be a interesting year.
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"The perfect timing for that was the arrival of the A380. It didn't happen now so why would it happen anytime soon."
No, the A380 will yield the greatest return for the company. Crew costs have the least impact on this aircraft. There are much smaller fish to fry where the crew costs represent a much larger chunk of the operating cost and can make the difference between win and lose.
"Which airlines do you consider to be competitors?"
Malaysia Airlines. Singapore. Thai. Air China. Eva. China Airlines. Korean. Air New Zealand. Asiana. China Southern. Garuda. Vietnam Airlines. China Eastern. Phillipine Airlines. And more.
These airlines crewing costs are significantly lower than those of QF.
"S/Os as a far cheaper alternative to real captains and F/Os."
An SO at QF earns more than an FO at most of the airlines above and more than a Captain of some of these airlines.
"Firstly, why is it always AIPA's responsibility to propose efficiencies?"
Its not "always AIPA's" responsibility to propose efficiencies. It is, however, your ass on the line when QF downsizes or god forbid, ceases operating. Perhaps being proactive is not a bad thing. Its amazing what efficiencies the employees of AN were able to find under administration.
"Yep, you're a balance sheet kinda guy."
I am. So are the folks that run your company. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE PROFITABLE AND YOU HAVE A JOB."
No, the A380 will yield the greatest return for the company. Crew costs have the least impact on this aircraft. There are much smaller fish to fry where the crew costs represent a much larger chunk of the operating cost and can make the difference between win and lose.
"Which airlines do you consider to be competitors?"
Malaysia Airlines. Singapore. Thai. Air China. Eva. China Airlines. Korean. Air New Zealand. Asiana. China Southern. Garuda. Vietnam Airlines. China Eastern. Phillipine Airlines. And more.
These airlines crewing costs are significantly lower than those of QF.
"S/Os as a far cheaper alternative to real captains and F/Os."
An SO at QF earns more than an FO at most of the airlines above and more than a Captain of some of these airlines.
"Firstly, why is it always AIPA's responsibility to propose efficiencies?"
Its not "always AIPA's" responsibility to propose efficiencies. It is, however, your ass on the line when QF downsizes or god forbid, ceases operating. Perhaps being proactive is not a bad thing. Its amazing what efficiencies the employees of AN were able to find under administration.
"Yep, you're a balance sheet kinda guy."
I am. So are the folks that run your company. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE PROFITABLE AND YOU HAVE A JOB."
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The professor..The Mentality
Many large corporations are in a mess and yet non performing CEOs are rewarding them selves with pay increases,share options and corporate jets.
Many have the same mentality as the Professor which is characterised by an overblown sense of entitlement and a self bestowed divine right to rule.
The professor suggests that we are all lucky to have a job.
It is ultimately the worker on the shop floor that pays for the arrogance and incomptence of failed CEOs who are it seems accountable to no one.
Qantas is no different to other corporations in that the employees at the coalface have a better understanding of the business than the overpaid fools who (mis) manage it.
The current economic environment shoud be seen as an opportunity to limit CEO remuneration and subject them to the same accountability as the rest of the workforce.
They are,after all,employees
Something that many appear to have forgotten
Many have the same mentality as the Professor which is characterised by an overblown sense of entitlement and a self bestowed divine right to rule.
The professor suggests that we are all lucky to have a job.
It is ultimately the worker on the shop floor that pays for the arrogance and incomptence of failed CEOs who are it seems accountable to no one.
Qantas is no different to other corporations in that the employees at the coalface have a better understanding of the business than the overpaid fools who (mis) manage it.
The current economic environment shoud be seen as an opportunity to limit CEO remuneration and subject them to the same accountability as the rest of the workforce.
They are,after all,employees
Something that many appear to have forgotten
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Okay professor, please produce the documentary evidence to support your claims about Qantas second officer's pay. Oh, and while you're at it, cost of living comparisons between those countries and Australia too please.
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Yep, you're a balance sheet kinda guy."
I am. So are the folks that run your company. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE PROFITABLE AND YOU HAVE A JOB."
I am. So are the folks that run your company. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE PROFITABLE AND YOU HAVE A JOB."
Yes..... and probably 50% of the profit was due to a lack of maintenance on the aircraft..... but the chickens will come home to roost on that one.
Looking after the balance sheet is important...but along with that comes responsible future planning, and growing markets etc. QF have been so blinded by cost cutting (which to an extent was needed) that they appear to have forgotten about the rest of the business. I think Alan has a huge task rebuilding a largely dysfunctional internally fighting company - where every department is determined to flog its costs off to another department.
I'm done...
We'll have to agree to disagree. I've tried to answer and elaborate, in detail, an early question on this thread; why the vitriol at QF? Replies have invariably been selective, narrow in scope, and assertive but not necessarily demonstably factual. 
My experience/impression of the last few years, and I'm not alone, is that QF management has been devious, deceptive, manipulative, non-consultative, exclusionary, and can't be trusted to accurately reflect the facts. I maintain that QF management could have cultivated, and might yet regain, the respect of the employees with their actions, tactics and inclusiveness; that approach can lead to massively improved engagement, and in turn to far better levels of service, wilful and cooperative cost-containment, and efficiency from employees. It's possible that profits might even soar.
The assertion that competitors' crewing costs are far lower than QF might , just might, be partly true in isolation, but now compare the profitability of those competitors with QF and most don't even come close. So I return to my theme; why smash the people, who help most to make an airline profitable? It seems obvious to me that it is not only about crewing costs. It has nothing to do with costs-of-living (sorry Drop).
Finally, I don't defend a 600+ page EBA. It is what it is. But the ability to condense it to the beautiful simplicity of a poorer-record less-profitable airline's "benchmark" rests at least as much with QF managers as it does with AIPA. I trust that Alan Joyce decides to convince the industrial strategists of the folly of their ways but only time will tell.
2009 will indeed be an interesting year.
My experience/impression of the last few years, and I'm not alone, is that QF management has been devious, deceptive, manipulative, non-consultative, exclusionary, and can't be trusted to accurately reflect the facts. I maintain that QF management could have cultivated, and might yet regain, the respect of the employees with their actions, tactics and inclusiveness; that approach can lead to massively improved engagement, and in turn to far better levels of service, wilful and cooperative cost-containment, and efficiency from employees. It's possible that profits might even soar.
The assertion that competitors' crewing costs are far lower than QF might , just might, be partly true in isolation, but now compare the profitability of those competitors with QF and most don't even come close. So I return to my theme; why smash the people, who help most to make an airline profitable? It seems obvious to me that it is not only about crewing costs. It has nothing to do with costs-of-living (sorry Drop).
Finally, I don't defend a 600+ page EBA. It is what it is. But the ability to condense it to the beautiful simplicity of a poorer-record less-profitable airline's "benchmark" rests at least as much with QF managers as it does with AIPA. I trust that Alan Joyce decides to convince the industrial strategists of the folly of their ways but only time will tell.
2009 will indeed be an interesting year.
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My sources inside mention that talking a good game is all that changed...
AJ will continue the path set upon by Dixon, albeit a little more eloquently (word wise)
Management will continue to divide and conquer..Stand by for Jetstar Lite. No expense will be spared to flog staff, particularly as the real economy feels the impact of the 100 year event.
The end game will no doubt be a while in coming but nonetheless if Leigh can't sell it, he will merge it, naturally more of the spoils fall to management..
They are after all the smartest guys in the room
Just remember they will privatise the profit and socialise the loss..
Good enough for the finance industry, good enough for cars, why not good enough for a run down airline?
AJ will continue the path set upon by Dixon, albeit a little more eloquently (word wise)
Management will continue to divide and conquer..Stand by for Jetstar Lite. No expense will be spared to flog staff, particularly as the real economy feels the impact of the 100 year event.
The end game will no doubt be a while in coming but nonetheless if Leigh can't sell it, he will merge it, naturally more of the spoils fall to management..
They are after all the smartest guys in the room
Just remember they will privatise the profit and socialise the loss..
Good enough for the finance industry, good enough for cars, why not good enough for a run down airline?
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Good God !
Dont these bastards ever learn.?
Airlines require engaged staff who are well resourced.If Qantas want to be the worlds premium airline they had better start treating their employees like human beings rather than carbon based units of work.
Unfortunately Clifford is a Dinosaur whose raison d'etre is to kick arse.
It may have worked 20 years ago in the mining industry but unless Clifford lives under a big rock,it wont work now.
Airlines require engaged staff who are well resourced.If Qantas want to be the worlds premium airline they had better start treating their employees like human beings rather than carbon based units of work.
Unfortunately Clifford is a Dinosaur whose raison d'etre is to kick arse.
It may have worked 20 years ago in the mining industry but unless Clifford lives under a big rock,it wont work now.
Just understand that QF's profits are a tax on all Australians. If QF had to compete in real dog eat dog competition here, airfares would be way cheaper, and more Australians would have jobs.
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What drugs are you on Sunfish? I hope your post was a wind-up but I can't see how or why.
Which fares would get way cheaper? Domestic airfares are unsustainable at their low levels already. Why would lower airfares lead to more jobs? Why are the profits a tax on all Australians?
Just understand that QF's profits are a tax on all Australians. If QF had to compete in real dog eat dog competition here, airfares would be way cheaper, and more Australians would have jobs.