Merged: ASA Staff Shortage
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I have copied the following - verbatim - from the Civil Air Australia - Home member's forum. If any of those that fly on a regular basis could pass this on to their colleagues, then that would obviously be appreciated.
"Hi All,
With all the TIBA and staffing problems at Airservices, more anecdotes are surfacing where pilots are blaming delays on ATC to the pax. Nothing particularly new here, and we have a thick skin when it comes to this, although this time pilots are making specific claims of "Industrial action by ATC" on their PAs.
Would you mind somehow passing the message around to your colleagues that:
- ATC is not undertaking industrial action, nor work-to-rule, or anything like that
- ATC is doing lots of overtime and shift extensions and in many cases maximum legal hours
- Airservices management have progressively cut staff to the point where there is not only no spare capacity (standby shifts) but there are whole roster lines that require overtime to fill
In most cases where TIBA occurs, it is because there is one controller working alone and requires a fatigue break before returning to the console
Airservices spins the staff shortages as "staff non-availability" ... meaning ATCs on rec leave or rostered days off weren't available to come in at short notice.
This, apparently, is why we're being taken to the AIRC to work mandatory overtime.
I'm sure you guys know the drill, but if you can get this message posted to your crew notice boards it'd be appreciated.
Would be great if you could forward this to at least four flying friends - we are all getting tired of this crap."
.........
As is said, "we are ALL getting tired of this crap". That 'all' includes the ATCs; the aircrew, the cabin crew and other airline staff; the ancilliary airport and surrounding support individuals that are affected; the airline shareholders; AND don't forget, THE PASSENGERS - that is the ultimate CUSTOMERS that are at the receiving end of this whole 'kin debacle.
The only ones who aren't concerned are the CEO of Airservices Australia (and what a misnomer that is for a company name), and his coterie that thrive on the outrageous bonuses that are garnered from the fact that the reduced staff numbers that they have engineered have therefore increased THEIR OWN personal salary packages.
What 'kin hypocrites they are...
I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it any more...
"Hi All,
With all the TIBA and staffing problems at Airservices, more anecdotes are surfacing where pilots are blaming delays on ATC to the pax. Nothing particularly new here, and we have a thick skin when it comes to this, although this time pilots are making specific claims of "Industrial action by ATC" on their PAs.
Would you mind somehow passing the message around to your colleagues that:
- ATC is not undertaking industrial action, nor work-to-rule, or anything like that
- ATC is doing lots of overtime and shift extensions and in many cases maximum legal hours
- Airservices management have progressively cut staff to the point where there is not only no spare capacity (standby shifts) but there are whole roster lines that require overtime to fill
In most cases where TIBA occurs, it is because there is one controller working alone and requires a fatigue break before returning to the console
Airservices spins the staff shortages as "staff non-availability" ... meaning ATCs on rec leave or rostered days off weren't available to come in at short notice.
This, apparently, is why we're being taken to the AIRC to work mandatory overtime.
I'm sure you guys know the drill, but if you can get this message posted to your crew notice boards it'd be appreciated.
Would be great if you could forward this to at least four flying friends - we are all getting tired of this crap."
.........
As is said, "we are ALL getting tired of this crap". That 'all' includes the ATCs; the aircrew, the cabin crew and other airline staff; the ancilliary airport and surrounding support individuals that are affected; the airline shareholders; AND don't forget, THE PASSENGERS - that is the ultimate CUSTOMERS that are at the receiving end of this whole 'kin debacle.
The only ones who aren't concerned are the CEO of Airservices Australia (and what a misnomer that is for a company name), and his coterie that thrive on the outrageous bonuses that are garnered from the fact that the reduced staff numbers that they have engineered have therefore increased THEIR OWN personal salary packages.
What 'kin hypocrites they are...
I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it any more...
Hey Griffo, have a look at this !
If things are that crook and if there's no end in sight, how about a quick, and possibly temporary, fix:
Question 1: Would there then be enough Controllers to cover Controlled Airspace? ... I don't know
Question 2: Would it be easier to attract and recruit "FSOs" than it has been to recruit Controllers? ... my guess, Yes.
Question 2: How long would it take to recruit, train and provide facilities for the new staff?
My estimate ... 12 months.
There's probably a million reason why it wouldn't work, but desperate times require desperate measures ... and I bet someone with enough lateral thinking, guts and planning skill could pull it off.
In fact, it may be the only long term solution if we continue to be unable to attract trainee controllers.
If things are that crook and if there's no end in sight, how about a quick, and possibly temporary, fix:
- Separate G Airspace from all other Airspace
- Resectorise everything else ... "Controlled Airspace"
- Funnel all Controllers into new re-sectorized "Controlled Airspace"
- Recruit a mixture of Ex and New FSOs to look after Class G Airspace
Question 1: Would there then be enough Controllers to cover Controlled Airspace? ... I don't know
Question 2: Would it be easier to attract and recruit "FSOs" than it has been to recruit Controllers? ... my guess, Yes.
Question 2: How long would it take to recruit, train and provide facilities for the new staff?
My estimate ... 12 months.
There's probably a million reason why it wouldn't work, but desperate times require desperate measures ... and I bet someone with enough lateral thinking, guts and planning skill could pull it off.
In fact, it may be the only long term solution if we continue to be unable to attract trainee controllers.
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Instructors
To give the instructors their due, the vast majority are good at their job and try their hardest with limited resources.
It might have been easier for them this year if they didn't try to take so many trainees in just so that they could say that "they have put 100 through the college (learning academy - I mean really!!) this year"
When there isn't enough classrooms to house the students and not enough instructors to ensure that the students are recieving the appropriate amount of attention for the training that they are trying to achieve then the instructors are behind from the beginning.
It might have been easier for them this year if they didn't try to take so many trainees in just so that they could say that "they have put 100 through the college (learning academy - I mean really!!) this year"
When there isn't enough classrooms to house the students and not enough instructors to ensure that the students are recieving the appropriate amount of attention for the training that they are trying to achieve then the instructors are behind from the beginning.
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peuceHey Griffo, have a look at this !
If things are that crook and if there's no end in sight, how about a quick, and possibly temporary, fix:
If things are that crook and if there's no end in sight, how about a quick, and possibly temporary, fix:
- Separate G Airspace from all other Airspace
- Resectorise everything else ... "Controlled Airspace"
- Funnel all Controllers into new re-sectorized "Controlled Airspace"
- Recruit a mixture of Ex and New FSOs to look after Class G Airspace
It has occured to more than one of us that should it come to pass that Class G airspace is no longer looked after by ATC (say for example, because of a lack of staff) then TFN could solve his staffing problem and reduce his wage bill all at once.
but obviously that's just paranoia talking.
the situation would never be allowed to eventuate.
Right?
.
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Option B
If it all goes very pear shaped.
I'd speculate that AsA could shut all GA towers and transfer staff to essential (fare paying and profitable) areas.
Sadly poor GA would cop it again!
My guess is CASA would have a fit and it would only ever happen if the Minister stepped in!
I'd speculate that AsA could shut all GA towers and transfer staff to essential (fare paying and profitable) areas.
Sadly poor GA would cop it again!
My guess is CASA would have a fit and it would only ever happen if the Minister stepped in!
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Oziatc,
There are not the resources to train the GAAP towers people in the sim, let alone in the room, in a 12 month time period.
Most Simulator training exercises haven't been updated in years due to lack of staff. Controllers can't be released to do the work due staff shortages.
The sim training packages no longer properly reflect what goes on in the real world. The STAR's and procedures have moved on, the simulator courses are woefully out of date.
Instructors have to tell the trainees that they will do it different in the operations room, that is of course if they actually get an instructor in the sim.
VH-ASA, operating under VFR, was given the marginal weather update about 5 years ago. The then PIC was already operating with minimum fuel. Three years ago TFN took over PIC duties and was told of 8/8 along his course and insufficient fuel to reach destination. TFN pushed on regardless, jettisoned his instruments and radios (too much weight, need to be streamlined) and reverted to his version of IFR (SDE) procedures. He is not rated for these procedures and is hoping for a break in the weather.
Unfortunately the valley he has flown into has now got weather behind. His mobile is still working and he has assured his company (Minister Albanese and CASA) that everything is fine, he has enough fuel (it's just in the wrong tanks, i.e. in the bowser back at BP) and his SDE rated flight crew are on top of the problem and they will land on time.
He has also jettisoned the crew members who threw out the instruments and radios (on his instruction) to further lighten the load. He has now donned the parachute (golden), just in case, as he now realises he is in IMC and his SDE procedures aren't working. He is broadcasting over the PA to the passengers (airlines, media and controllers) that the turbulence they are encountering is due to ATC and nothing to do with his flying skills. He is also wondering why everything from the floor is now resting above him, and his tie is flapping in front of his face.
It's called the graveyard spiral.
Stay tuned, some actually get out of it, but it plays merry hell with the aircraft.
There are not the resources to train the GAAP towers people in the sim, let alone in the room, in a 12 month time period.
Most Simulator training exercises haven't been updated in years due to lack of staff. Controllers can't be released to do the work due staff shortages.
The sim training packages no longer properly reflect what goes on in the real world. The STAR's and procedures have moved on, the simulator courses are woefully out of date.
Instructors have to tell the trainees that they will do it different in the operations room, that is of course if they actually get an instructor in the sim.
VH-ASA, operating under VFR, was given the marginal weather update about 5 years ago. The then PIC was already operating with minimum fuel. Three years ago TFN took over PIC duties and was told of 8/8 along his course and insufficient fuel to reach destination. TFN pushed on regardless, jettisoned his instruments and radios (too much weight, need to be streamlined) and reverted to his version of IFR (SDE) procedures. He is not rated for these procedures and is hoping for a break in the weather.
Unfortunately the valley he has flown into has now got weather behind. His mobile is still working and he has assured his company (Minister Albanese and CASA) that everything is fine, he has enough fuel (it's just in the wrong tanks, i.e. in the bowser back at BP) and his SDE rated flight crew are on top of the problem and they will land on time.
He has also jettisoned the crew members who threw out the instruments and radios (on his instruction) to further lighten the load. He has now donned the parachute (golden), just in case, as he now realises he is in IMC and his SDE procedures aren't working. He is broadcasting over the PA to the passengers (airlines, media and controllers) that the turbulence they are encountering is due to ATC and nothing to do with his flying skills. He is also wondering why everything from the floor is now resting above him, and his tie is flapping in front of his face.
It's called the graveyard spiral.
Stay tuned, some actually get out of it, but it plays merry hell with the aircraft.
oziatc said
Even if this happended overnight, a % of staff wouldn't want to transfer and would resign. And with the significant differences between GAAP and other facets of ATC; Regional, Towers, Radar Towers, Approach and Departures, Enroute Radar, Enroute Non-Radar a conversion course would be requried.
These conversions courses would be a minimum of three weeks and then there would be on-the-job training required, a minimum of four months. And this assumes that there are Simulator and On-the-job Instructors available. Some groups are at the point that they can't take trainees because there is no capacity to train them.
There is no simple solution.
If it all goes very pear shaped.
I'd speculate that AsA could shut all GA towers and transfer staff to essential (fare paying and profitable) areas.
I'd speculate that AsA could shut all GA towers and transfer staff to essential (fare paying and profitable) areas.
These conversions courses would be a minimum of three weeks and then there would be on-the-job training required, a minimum of four months. And this assumes that there are Simulator and On-the-job Instructors available. Some groups are at the point that they can't take trainees because there is no capacity to train them.
There is no simple solution.
G'Day 'Mr 'Undervalued'...
Re "It has occured to more than one of us that should it come to pass that Class G airspace is no longer looked after by ATC (say for example, because of a lack of staff) then TFN could solve his staffing problem and reduce his wage bill all at once."
That actually rings a bell.....from the deep and distant past...
Was it not part of the 'Great TAAAAATS Plan', when it was first unveiled, all those years ago, to 'assume' the management of adjacent FIR airspaces, Upper Levels only, by contract, thereby selling 'our TAAAATS expertise' to those less fortunate countries who did not possess this wunnerful system......and make lots of $$$'s??
There was / is no reason that the system cannot manage this half of the planet's airspace - Upper Levels only thankyou - from BN / ML - just like it does now.
i.e. Our 'bros' would not need an Upper Level ATC system at all, thus saving them many many $$'s in infrastructure, staff, etc - they would simply pay AsA for the services provided?
If I recall, the theory expressed then was that AsA would concentrate on Upper Level Airspace only - 'cause that's where the $$'s are!
Heavy Metal En Route Air Nav Charges are much more productive than 'bug smasher' material. Its the $$$'s you see.....
Maybe the wheel has not yet stopped turning........
Gee....or did I mean 'G'......
Keep smiling.....
Re "It has occured to more than one of us that should it come to pass that Class G airspace is no longer looked after by ATC (say for example, because of a lack of staff) then TFN could solve his staffing problem and reduce his wage bill all at once."
That actually rings a bell.....from the deep and distant past...
Was it not part of the 'Great TAAAAATS Plan', when it was first unveiled, all those years ago, to 'assume' the management of adjacent FIR airspaces, Upper Levels only, by contract, thereby selling 'our TAAAATS expertise' to those less fortunate countries who did not possess this wunnerful system......and make lots of $$$'s??
There was / is no reason that the system cannot manage this half of the planet's airspace - Upper Levels only thankyou - from BN / ML - just like it does now.
i.e. Our 'bros' would not need an Upper Level ATC system at all, thus saving them many many $$'s in infrastructure, staff, etc - they would simply pay AsA for the services provided?
If I recall, the theory expressed then was that AsA would concentrate on Upper Level Airspace only - 'cause that's where the $$'s are!
Heavy Metal En Route Air Nav Charges are much more productive than 'bug smasher' material. Its the $$$'s you see.....
Maybe the wheel has not yet stopped turning........
Gee....or did I mean 'G'......
Keep smiling.....
Now before I thrust my latest metaphor out there .. this is all predicated on the assumption that ASA does NOT have a cunning plan to get back on track within a year ... so I could be worrying about nothing ...
I see ASA as a Restaurant ... however, all the jobs are being done by trained Chefs!
They are now finding they are short of, and can't train enough new Chefs.
What would a normal Restaurant do ? If it was me, I would hire some kitchen hands to do some of the tasks that a full Chef's capabilities aren't required for. Then I would consolidate my remaining Chefs onto the tasks that really need their expertise. Not only is it more efficient, but I'll probably save a bit of money in the long run.
But what would I know about running a restaurant ...?
I see ASA as a Restaurant ... however, all the jobs are being done by trained Chefs!
They are now finding they are short of, and can't train enough new Chefs.
What would a normal Restaurant do ? If it was me, I would hire some kitchen hands to do some of the tasks that a full Chef's capabilities aren't required for. Then I would consolidate my remaining Chefs onto the tasks that really need their expertise. Not only is it more efficient, but I'll probably save a bit of money in the long run.
But what would I know about running a restaurant ...?
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max1 
I have read that book you are writing above and here is the next chapter, expand on it as you wish
VH-ASA has now peaked its IAS at the Coffin Corner..........................
J
I have read that book you are writing above and here is the next chapter, expand on it as you wish
VH-ASA has now peaked its IAS at the Coffin Corner..........................
J
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Plazbot, ironically (or maybe not so much) something else that was judged to be more important came up in the IRC so the hearing was postponed, with no date set as yet.
That's right, the IRC did not want to do overtime to make a ruling about whether we should be doing overtime.
As for the EBA, even if AsA had made a half-palatable offer (which they most definitely have NOT) there is no way we could have an AEC vote and sign off on it in the next two weeks. So after 15 negotiation (for want of a better word) and 6 months, we are as far from agreement as we ever were, if not more so.
Ex FSO Griffith, as others have pointed out, a lot of ATC'ers agree that we are well past the PNR for having enough qualified, available field trainers to instruct newbies (or even oldies). - which is kind of the point I was making in the previous post - how did this situation develop this far?
That's right, the IRC did not want to do overtime to make a ruling about whether we should be doing overtime.
As for the EBA, even if AsA had made a half-palatable offer (which they most definitely have NOT) there is no way we could have an AEC vote and sign off on it in the next two weeks. So after 15 negotiation (for want of a better word) and 6 months, we are as far from agreement as we ever were, if not more so.
Ex FSO Griffith, as others have pointed out, a lot of ATC'ers agree that we are well past the PNR for having enough qualified, available field trainers to instruct newbies (or even oldies). - which is kind of the point I was making in the previous post - how did this situation develop this far?
Plazbot,
You may be correct in tutt, tutting what ifs or why nots or why don't theys ... in favour of what IS happening ...
But my point is ... there are/were ways to deal with the situation ... even if it's to provide no services in G Airspace ...
The what IS happening ... just isn't!
So, we may as well talk of what might have been ....
You may be correct in tutt, tutting what ifs or why nots or why don't theys ... in favour of what IS happening ...
But my point is ... there are/were ways to deal with the situation ... even if it's to provide no services in G Airspace ...
The what IS happening ... just isn't!
So, we may as well talk of what might have been ....
Last edited by peuce; 5th Dec 2008 at 08:07. Reason: Tried to make more sense ... but I'm still confused !
We are all confused mate. if ever there should have been a CA that was straight up and straight forward it was this one. Increases recognising legit cost of living plus at least a token gesture to recognise staff retention and close the book. It is however the most hostile effort they have had so far and towards a work force that is actually helping them
Stupid
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What CAN We Do??...
Hey 'Plaz'....
We ALL recognise - well those who still have the interest / capacity to 'think' about solutions do - that the present 'system' is in deep doodoo!
The only was out is to 'priortise' duties / functions - and let the 'Chefs' do the cheffing, and others less qualified perform the minor functions - for the next whenever until adequate staff are Rated and Available 'on the floor'.
Any other ideas?? (I'm not Einstein, but then, it isn't 'rocket science' either...)
It really will not matter much about the IRC O/T issue when the last man out turns the lights OFF i.e. there are no 'Chefs' left to perform the 'Cheffing'. (Is that a word?) As must happen in the foreseeable future if the present stagnation of training continues...
Attrition / age factor / greener pastures...you name it!
I reckon you're on the right track Mr Peuce....'tis indeed a pity you do not have 'influence' where it is needed...
UNless, the real plan is to 'consolidate' to Upper Level functions which will require less staff.
Good Luck To All!!
We ALL recognise - well those who still have the interest / capacity to 'think' about solutions do - that the present 'system' is in deep doodoo!
The only was out is to 'priortise' duties / functions - and let the 'Chefs' do the cheffing, and others less qualified perform the minor functions - for the next whenever until adequate staff are Rated and Available 'on the floor'.
Any other ideas?? (I'm not Einstein, but then, it isn't 'rocket science' either...)
It really will not matter much about the IRC O/T issue when the last man out turns the lights OFF i.e. there are no 'Chefs' left to perform the 'Cheffing'. (Is that a word?) As must happen in the foreseeable future if the present stagnation of training continues...
Attrition / age factor / greener pastures...you name it!
I reckon you're on the right track Mr Peuce....'tis indeed a pity you do not have 'influence' where it is needed...
UNless, the real plan is to 'consolidate' to Upper Level functions which will require less staff.
Good Luck To All!!
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Plazbot the IRC dates off Civilair web site
December
15/16 Reasonable Hours
18 ALM restructure redundancy/redeployment
19 (I think) Letter of Commitment and pre 0600 starts
All before Commissioner Bacon on Melbourne
December
15/16 Reasonable Hours
18 ALM restructure redundancy/redeployment
19 (I think) Letter of Commitment and pre 0600 starts
All before Commissioner Bacon on Melbourne