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Sheesh. Couple of worrying posts here.
I would've thought it was cut & dried. Sure, if you're at or above the circling minima, you can break off and do a "circling approach" IAW the rules on how you fly a circling approach.
If you're below the circling minima (eg on a straight-in VOR/ILS or whatever) and you discontinue the approach, well you're in missed approach territory, end of story. And you don't fly "half" a missed approach unless for example you get radar identified and vectored, or you climb above an applicable MSA (as opposed to circling minima).
It's not that hard. Surely.
I would've thought it was cut & dried. Sure, if you're at or above the circling minima, you can break off and do a "circling approach" IAW the rules on how you fly a circling approach.
If you're below the circling minima (eg on a straight-in VOR/ILS or whatever) and you discontinue the approach, well you're in missed approach territory, end of story. And you don't fly "half" a missed approach unless for example you get radar identified and vectored, or you climb above an applicable MSA (as opposed to circling minima).
It's not that hard. Surely.
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Tiger boss sells shares
Matt O'Sullivan
June 2, 2011
TIGER Airways chief executive Tony Davis has sold another large parcel of shares in the budget airline, renewing doubts about his confidence in its longer-term outlook.
As Tiger tries to stem losses in Australia and overcome obstacles to expansion in Asia, Mr Davis has sold 1 million shares in the airline - almost a quarter of his holdings - for $S1.42 ($A1.07) each.
They were sold at a 5 per cent discount to their issue price when the airline was floated in January last year.
It is the second time Mr Davis has offloaded shares in Tiger since it was listed on the Singapore Stock Exchange.
In August, Mr Davis and two of Tiger's largest shareholders, Ryanasia and Indigo Partners, sold almost 66 million shares - representing 12 per cent of the issued capital - for about $S125 million.
Ryanasia is controlled by the Irish family that founded Ryanair.
Shares in Tiger have fallen almost 23 per cent since reaching a high of $S2.24 in August.
Mr Davis's latest sale leaves him with 3.1 million shares in the Singapore Airlines-backed budget carrier.
Tiger last month suspended its ambitious growth plans for Australia and announced a strategic network review that could result in it ditching loss-making routes.
The Singapore-based airline's Australian operations suffered a $S9 million operating loss for the year to March amid intense competition for leisure travellers.
A Tiger spokeswoman said Mr Davis's share sale was his ''personal decision'' and he continued to hold a ''significant amount of Tiger shares''.
Last week Citi analysts recommended investors sell Tiger shares because of the risk of its expansion into Indonesia and a lack of progress on a joint venture in Thailand.
''Simultaneously venturing into the Philippines, Indonesia and Thailand while attempting to reverse losses in Australia raises execution risks,'' they said.
The airline, which was issued a ''show-cause'' notice by the Australian air regulator in March, has insisted that it has no plans to pull out of Australia despite mounting losses.
The notice was sparked by concerns about aircraft maintenance and forces Tiger to explain why it should not have its licence to fly revoked.
Matt O'Sullivan
June 2, 2011
TIGER Airways chief executive Tony Davis has sold another large parcel of shares in the budget airline, renewing doubts about his confidence in its longer-term outlook.
As Tiger tries to stem losses in Australia and overcome obstacles to expansion in Asia, Mr Davis has sold 1 million shares in the airline - almost a quarter of his holdings - for $S1.42 ($A1.07) each.
They were sold at a 5 per cent discount to their issue price when the airline was floated in January last year.
It is the second time Mr Davis has offloaded shares in Tiger since it was listed on the Singapore Stock Exchange.
In August, Mr Davis and two of Tiger's largest shareholders, Ryanasia and Indigo Partners, sold almost 66 million shares - representing 12 per cent of the issued capital - for about $S125 million.
Ryanasia is controlled by the Irish family that founded Ryanair.
Shares in Tiger have fallen almost 23 per cent since reaching a high of $S2.24 in August.
Mr Davis's latest sale leaves him with 3.1 million shares in the Singapore Airlines-backed budget carrier.
Tiger last month suspended its ambitious growth plans for Australia and announced a strategic network review that could result in it ditching loss-making routes.
The Singapore-based airline's Australian operations suffered a $S9 million operating loss for the year to March amid intense competition for leisure travellers.
A Tiger spokeswoman said Mr Davis's share sale was his ''personal decision'' and he continued to hold a ''significant amount of Tiger shares''.
Last week Citi analysts recommended investors sell Tiger shares because of the risk of its expansion into Indonesia and a lack of progress on a joint venture in Thailand.
''Simultaneously venturing into the Philippines, Indonesia and Thailand while attempting to reverse losses in Australia raises execution risks,'' they said.
The airline, which was issued a ''show-cause'' notice by the Australian air regulator in March, has insisted that it has no plans to pull out of Australia despite mounting losses.
The notice was sparked by concerns about aircraft maintenance and forces Tiger to explain why it should not have its licence to fly revoked.
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I love how Albanese has been out in the media puffing his chest up about the toughness of CASA.
I'm sure things aren't a bed of roses at Tiger but one thing is for sure, there is no way CASA would ground Jetstar for the same problems, oh no! Tiger is an easy target. Singapore owned, virtually no pull whatsoever in the political arena.
Infact, CASA grounding Tiger is like a parent feeding a child lollies and then telling them off when they are hypoactive.
The problem isn't Tiger, the problem is the industry as a whole.
If you can fly to the Goldie for less than the cab fare to the Airport there has to be a problem.
Have a look around next time you are at the airport.
I'm sure things aren't a bed of roses at Tiger but one thing is for sure, there is no way CASA would ground Jetstar for the same problems, oh no! Tiger is an easy target. Singapore owned, virtually no pull whatsoever in the political arena.
Infact, CASA grounding Tiger is like a parent feeding a child lollies and then telling them off when they are hypoactive.
The problem isn't Tiger, the problem is the industry as a whole.
If you can fly to the Goldie for less than the cab fare to the Airport there has to be a problem.
Have a look around next time you are at the airport.
74 Mate.......ok but I was generally thinking of just doing a normal circuit and Flap 2 at about 180 kts downwind would be good. Flap 3 would require quite a bit more thrust to fly level and we don't need to fly that slow.
If you were actually circling then yes Flap 3
If you were actually circling then yes Flap 3
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"I've got 15 family members coming to fly Tiger tomorrow for the wedding - what's going to happen to them?" he said.
"I'm really angry we only found out about this when it's too late. It's a joke."
All domestic flights have been suspended until at least July 9 - affecting about 35,000 passengers - but Melbourne-to-Singapore services have not been affected.
At Avalon, Christina Enotiades, on a working holiday from London, knew nothing of the delays before arriving for a Sydney flight.
"It's the worse customer service I've seen," Ms Enotiades said. "There's no apology at the counter and no recompense."
Tiger said customers with bookings from now until 6am on Saturday would be offered a credit for deferred travel with Tiger or a full refund.
"I'm really angry we only found out about this when it's too late. It's a joke."
All domestic flights have been suspended until at least July 9 - affecting about 35,000 passengers - but Melbourne-to-Singapore services have not been affected.
At Avalon, Christina Enotiades, on a working holiday from London, knew nothing of the delays before arriving for a Sydney flight.
"It's the worse customer service I've seen," Ms Enotiades said. "There's no apology at the counter and no recompense."
Tiger said customers with bookings from now until 6am on Saturday would be offered a credit for deferred travel with Tiger or a full refund.
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Bet all those smart arse Tiger pilots that were **** canning Virgin about 18 months ago are laughing on the other side of their faces...what is it that they were saying? We have 20 A320's coming because we think VB are going under...
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Re the Avalon incident, I can't help thinking that if they briefed a circling approach to 36 and not the S-I ILS 18, we wouldn't be talking here. ATC of course did not make it easier for them to climb up to 3000. It appears that the issue is not one of lack of or insufficiency of training but sound judgement, and the problem is you can't train judgement like you train skills or tasks.
I stand to be corrected on the facts of the incident.
I stand to be corrected on the facts of the incident.
1/ Plan the approach using LOC FPA
2/ Take Gear and Flap in the normal way
3/ By 1000' at the latest if you cannot land straight in due to wind then
A/ ALT Hold
B/ HDG Pull
C/ SPD Pull and set for Config 2 Man, accelerate in level Flt ( won't take long!! )
D/ Retract flaps to Config 2 on schedule
E/ Retract Gear
F/ Fly circuit at 1000' feet
LAND.
If you were PLANNING to circle from the beginning then you wouldn't take more than Flap 2 in the first place. This is what I was taught for FUK 34.
2/ Take Gear and Flap in the normal way
3/ By 1000' at the latest if you cannot land straight in due to wind then
A/ ALT Hold
B/ HDG Pull
C/ SPD Pull and set for Config 2 Man, accelerate in level Flt ( won't take long!! )
D/ Retract flaps to Config 2 on schedule
E/ Retract Gear
F/ Fly circuit at 1000' feet
LAND.
If you were PLANNING to circle from the beginning then you wouldn't take more than Flap 2 in the first place. This is what I was taught for FUK 34.
When I started in Australia as an A320 F/O. CASA required us to demonstrate
an NPA followed by a single engine, 500ft circling approach every 90 days as part of our 3 monthly sim cycle. It was a handling exercise and only changed as a consequence of a review of circling procedures following a Navajo crash.
As with Australian Airlines, Ansett pilots had personal access to sims to help achieve this level of proficiency.
Nobody would ever dream of circling at 500' on one engine. But, it maintained high standards and proficiency. Since leaving Australia, with experience in the Middle East and Far East, I have noticed low handling standards especially in the area of visual flying - including circling.
Now nitpicker, you could only be a protege of Cathay Pacific to have complicated something straightforward!
If you circle, GD F3, turn off the flight directors and you are in speed mode, and fly the aeroplane. Same if you cock up the turn onto finals- pull the nose up, speed mode will give you thrust, and gently climb to circling altitude. No need for a IMC GA if it is runway alignment issue or too high and you are visual within the circling area.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 3rd Jul 2011 at 04:41.
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What about them?
OK I understand there are obviously some systemic issues at Tiger; I still don't understand how in a Radar environment and in a professional 2 crew operation, with 2 crew procedures, you can bust a cleared alititude (being the 3000' step-down given approaching EPP for the RW27 ILS). I heard whispers it was a coding error with the A320 FMC??
Anyway, digressing slightly, in May of 2010, Air Asia X was witnessed on radar flying below the MSA whilst on the VOR approach onto the VOR32 at YBCG on TWO CONSECUTIVE DAYS!
Investigation: AO-2010-027 - Airbus A330-343E, 9M-XXB, Gold Coast Aerodrome, 4 May 2010 So what has CASA done about this over 1 year on? Clearly a 300+ seater A330 spearing into the side of Terranora (on 2 consectuive days 
) is quite clearly a IMMINENT SAFETY RISK to safe air travel??? So why are they still allowed to fly here? I still don't understand how the EU can have a blacklist but we don't. How many Garuda Serious Incidents have there been in the past few years?
Also, I heard a few month's ago the CP at Tiger got asked to leave over a training incident at Avalon. Apparently a group of 9V Tiger pilot's conducting base training in Tiger's VH A320's.
This IS a rumour network so it could be $hite??!? Maybe this got CASA's spotlight shining???
Anyway, digressing slightly, in May of 2010, Air Asia X was witnessed on radar flying below the MSA whilst on the VOR approach onto the VOR32 at YBCG on TWO CONSECUTIVE DAYS!
Investigation: AO-2010-027 - Airbus A330-343E, 9M-XXB, Gold Coast Aerodrome, 4 May 2010 So what has CASA done about this over 1 year on? Clearly a 300+ seater A330 spearing into the side of Terranora (on 2 consectuive days ) is quite clearly a IMMINENT SAFETY RISK to safe air travel??? So why are they still allowed to fly here? I still don't understand how the EU can have a blacklist but we don't. How many Garuda Serious Incidents have there been in the past few years?Also, I heard a few month's ago the CP at Tiger got asked to leave over a training incident at Avalon. Apparently a group of 9V Tiger pilot's conducting base training in Tiger's VH A320's.
This IS a rumour network so it could be $hite??!? Maybe this got CASA's spotlight shining???
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I think the big problem with Tiger is the lack of a robust Safety Management System.
Without these recognised support and monitoring systems, operational management is just not across and indeed does not have the capability to adequately keep track of what's really going on.
Not the Chief Pilot's fault, but a direct result of higher executive management decisions.
In any case, I seriously doubt that Tiger's cost model could survive if they factored the required SMS into it.
Maybe we need to pay more for airfares and get the oversight that the industry deserves.
Without these recognised support and monitoring systems, operational management is just not across and indeed does not have the capability to adequately keep track of what's really going on.
Not the Chief Pilot's fault, but a direct result of higher executive management decisions.
In any case, I seriously doubt that Tiger's cost model could survive if they factored the required SMS into it.
Maybe we need to pay more for airfares and get the oversight that the industry deserves.
Air Asia X was witnessed on radar flying below the MSA whilst on the VOR approach onto the VOR32 at YBCG on TWO CONSECUTIVE DAYS! Investigation: AO-2010-027 - Airbus A330-343E, 9M-XXB, Gold Coast Aerodrome, 4 May 2010 So what has CASA done about this over 1 year on? Clearly a 300+ seater A330 spearing into the side of Terranora (on 2 consectuive days ) is quite clearly a IMMINENT SAFETY RISK to safe air travel??? So why are they still allowed to fly here? I still don't understand how the EU can have a blacklist but we don't. How many Garuda Serious Incidents have there been in the past few years?
Time to start hitting a few other operators. And yes that Air Asia X events were just swept under the carpet
Sheesh. Couple of worrying posts here.
I would've thought it was cut & dried. Sure, if you're at or above the circling minima, you can break off and do a "circling approach" IAW the rules on how you fly a circling approach.
If you're below the circling minima (eg on a straight-in VOR/ILS or whatever) and you discontinue the approach, well you're in missed approach territory, end of story. And you don't fly "half" a missed approach unless for example you get radar identified and vectored, or you climb above an applicable MSA (as opposed to circling minima).
It's not that hard. Surely.
I would've thought it was cut & dried. Sure, if you're at or above the circling minima, you can break off and do a "circling approach" IAW the rules on how you fly a circling approach.
If you're below the circling minima (eg on a straight-in VOR/ILS or whatever) and you discontinue the approach, well you're in missed approach territory, end of story. And you don't fly "half" a missed approach unless for example you get radar identified and vectored, or you climb above an applicable MSA (as opposed to circling minima).
It's not that hard. Surely.
If you're below the circling minima (eg on a straight-in VOR/ILS or whatever) and you discontinue the approach, well you're in missed approach territory, end of story.
So no, you dont fly 'any' of a missed approach. Thats why para .d exists in the first place.
Para. d does not say "only if the aircraft never descends below the circling MDA in the first place". I don't read that anywhere.
If what you say is correct, then with the regs as they are, the lowest I could ever go on an S-1/ILS at night would be the circling minima, should I need to circle on arrival. With the removal of para. d, nothing changes in that scenario. Making para d a completely superfluous bit of text within the AIP. With no para .d, i could still happily fly to the circling minima at night off an S-1/ILS, and then circle from there. So that being the case, what the hell is paragraph D there for?
It's not that hard. Surely.
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ENR 1.5-1.10.1 para. d. may not say it, but Note 1 at the bottom of section 1.7.3 does
(MDA can only be the circling MDA in this context)
If you have descended below circling MDA on a runway aligned approach, then any missed approach must be carried out to above a MSA
The concept is as follows:
(1) The pilot maintains visual contact with the landing runway while the aircraft is circled at MDA to a position within the traffic pattern that intercepts a normal downwind, base or final approach.
If the MDA is above the downwind height, the aircraft maintains MDA and downwind spacing until it reaches a position from which it can descend at normal approach rates to join base…
(1) The pilot maintains visual contact with the landing runway while the aircraft is circled at MDA to a position within the traffic pattern that intercepts a normal downwind, base or final approach.
If the MDA is above the downwind height, the aircraft maintains MDA and downwind spacing until it reaches a position from which it can descend at normal approach rates to join base…
If you have descended below circling MDA on a runway aligned approach, then any missed approach must be carried out to above a MSA
Last edited by Trent 972; 3rd Jul 2011 at 06:32. Reason: add AIP reference
That paragraph doesn't refer to the scenario we're talking about. Its talking about the 'concept' of when to leave the circling MDA from the circling area (not the protected area you're currently operating in on the S-1) to start your constant descent to the runway. This is why this clause exists, the 'concept' being that you're above the S-1 MDA, you can climb on track to the circling MDA, and then circle. This gives you protection throughout the entire maneuver.
As I said before, explain to me the reason for Para D's existence. Show me a single scenario where, if you were never allowed to climb up from < circling MDA to then circle, where para D would ever be applied to anything.
As I said before, explain to me the reason for Para D's existence. Show me a single scenario where, if you were never allowed to climb up from < circling MDA to then circle, where para D would ever be applied to anything.
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I disagree.
If you go round on final from a circling approach an you still have required circling vis and are with in circling area you can climb back up to circling minima and do x-wind / downwind and final.
Happens all the time in the sim when I screw up the turn on to finals and decide to go round.
Leave gear down, gentle climb back to 1000 AGL (or whatever the circling minima puts you at) and round you go.
In all my years have never had a sim instructor question that approach to a missed approach from circling..
You can circle in the circling area until the cows come home as long as you satisfy the vis/obstacle clearance, circling area etc etc.
During the mised approach up to circling minima , yes you cannot see the runway etc but in that portion you are conducting a missed approach with all the assoaciated climb gradient requirements. Once AT the circling minima , if you are still within 4.2nm (cat C), you're good to circle around for another go.
If you enter cloud...different story of course....you must carry out the whole shebang..ie shortest turn towards the aid and carry out the published missed appraoch.
If you go round on final from a circling approach an you still have required circling vis and are with in circling area you can climb back up to circling minima and do x-wind / downwind and final.
Happens all the time in the sim when I screw up the turn on to finals and decide to go round.
Leave gear down, gentle climb back to 1000 AGL (or whatever the circling minima puts you at) and round you go.
In all my years have never had a sim instructor question that approach to a missed approach from circling..
You can circle in the circling area until the cows come home as long as you satisfy the vis/obstacle clearance, circling area etc etc.
During the mised approach up to circling minima , yes you cannot see the runway etc but in that portion you are conducting a missed approach with all the assoaciated climb gradient requirements. Once AT the circling minima , if you are still within 4.2nm (cat C), you're good to circle around for another go.
If you enter cloud...different story of course....you must carry out the whole shebang..ie shortest turn towards the aid and carry out the published missed appraoch.
Dont see Strategic has the correctly configured planes for the job OR the financial backing to sustain a couple of years losses to get established
Ansett
, Ansett Mark II, Compass, Compass II, Oz-jet etc. There are alot of lessons to be learned in the Australian Airlines industry.
1. Its a limited population
2. Extremely long flight sectors compared with other similar countries, which has severe impacts on costs
with fuel price fluctuation
3. Australia has been accustomed to a very high standard of airline service.
4. There are tough established competitors
5. No new comer has ever survived (I suggest that Virgin may have ended the same if it was not for being virtually handed Ansett's routes and infrastructire when An collapsed)
Ansett
, Ansett Mark II, Compass, Compass II, Oz-jet etc. There are alot of lessons to be learned in the Australian Airlines industry.1. Its a limited population
2. Extremely long flight sectors compared with other similar countries, which has severe impacts on costs
with fuel price fluctuation
3. Australia has been accustomed to a very high standard of airline service.
4. There are tough established competitors
5. No new comer has ever survived (I suggest that Virgin may have ended the same if it was not for being virtually handed Ansett's routes and infrastructire when An collapsed)
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Gnads
para d. a landing cannot be effected from a runway approach (an aerodrome with ILS for runway that can't be used for landing due excessive downwind etc.)
OK, now you show me any AIP reference that says an IFR aircraft can execute a missed approach from a published approach and transition into a circling approach from below the circling MDA.
Your interpretation of what the AIP 'Doesn't Say' is not good enough. Actual reference required.
Eject, no argument from me on circling after commencing a circling approach, you can do it till the cows come home. I want to know how you carry out a missed approach from below the circling MDA, from a runway approach and transition into a circling approach before climbing through a MSA.
Claret, here's one impediment.
(Yes. I've been exposed to idiots that want to use bits and pieces from different approach charts to create their own approach. I doubt that the AIP made allowances for those tools though).
In carrying out a unpublished MA (gently climb to Circling altitude as Gnads put it)from a runway approach, AND below the circling MDA you are then just operating IFR below MSA at that moment because you would not be compliant with Instrument Approach rules considering that descent below the circling MDA (and you are below it if you have to climb up to it) can only commence (at night) when you are established on a 'normal' approach path!
para d. a landing cannot be effected from a runway approach (an aerodrome with ILS for runway that can't be used for landing due excessive downwind etc.)
unless a circling approach can be conducted in weather conditions equal to or better than those specified for circling.
OK, now you show me any AIP reference that says an IFR aircraft can execute a missed approach from a published approach and transition into a circling approach from below the circling MDA.
Your interpretation of what the AIP 'Doesn't Say' is not good enough. Actual reference required.
Eject, no argument from me on circling after commencing a circling approach, you can do it till the cows come home. I want to know how you carry out a missed approach from below the circling MDA, from a runway approach and transition into a circling approach before climbing through a MSA.
Claret, here's one impediment.
1.10.2 In executing a missed approach, pilots must follow the missed approach procedure specified for the instrument approach flown.
In carrying out a unpublished MA (gently climb to Circling altitude as Gnads put it)from a runway approach, AND below the circling MDA you are then just operating IFR below MSA at that moment because you would not be compliant with Instrument Approach rules considering that descent below the circling MDA (and you are below it if you have to climb up to it) can only commence (at night) when you are established on a 'normal' approach path!
Last edited by Trent 972; 3rd Jul 2011 at 04:21. Reason: add reply to Claret instead of another post
Bottums Up
Trent, it's my belief that the reference you provide pertains to flying say an ILS and conducting the NDB missed approach. I'm not aware of any impediment to commencing a missed approach and then, provided that visual constraints are met, continuing to circle at or above the circling minima, obviously with in the circling area.
It will be interesting to see what Tiger have to say in their media update statement at 3pm on Sun 2 July now that Davis has arrived from SIN to manage the show.