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OK so are there any more on the order books for Australia after number 8 or are they going to settle down and try to make some money before any further investment? Seems to me they have been losing money for a long time, how long can this go on before someone says enough?
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Given the recent alliance between Air Asia and J* I am starting to think that Tiger are either not that serious about their game or they need to ramp up fleet size a lot quicker than they are. I'm no MD or CEO but to me the situation looks pretty grim even if they have a good float and get a lousy $200M. They are nowhere near critical mass.
I really would like them to succeed as they are providing jobs and a service (albeit somewhat inflexible) to the public but if they think the local operators will just leave them alone to get established just because they are here they should think again. Slow and easy sounds good but it has not prevented big losses.
I really would like them to succeed as they are providing jobs and a service (albeit somewhat inflexible) to the public but if they think the local operators will just leave them alone to get established just because they are here they should think again. Slow and easy sounds good but it has not prevented big losses.
If you read the articles in the press it seems that the Ryanir investors would like to water down their exposure by off loading shares and equity. Note that Ryan Air's Declan Ryan and Bill Franke quit the board
and the airline this week announced a new chairman
An analyst at Standard & Poor's Equity Research in Singapore, said yesterday that investors were nervous about Tiger's competitive prospects, adding that a Jetstar-AirAsia deal could "cripple" the Singapore airline
Remember this is a new start airline that has never made a profit.
I do not apologize for disliking the way Tiger does business. Personally I don't think they have a profitable future in Australia. There is low cost overheads and then there is cut everything to the bare bones and contempt for passengers - It just doesn't fit in Australia.
The only way Tiger is filling planes is with very heavy discounting. There's clearly a boycott of Tiger by any regular air traveler. This has left Tiger with the bottom of the heap leisure passenger.
I have regularly followed Tiger's booking engine and they dont sell any where enough fares at high levels to ever make a sustained profit, IMO. Business passengers, which are needed in the Australia market to profit, will NOT travel with Tiger's arrogant attitude
And their arrogance is reflected in their attempt to float on the stock exchange with an order for
50 more brand new A320. I note their current fleet is just 7
Seriously have a good think before you buy any shares. Remember Compass folks?
and the airline this week announced a new chairmanAn analyst at Standard & Poor's Equity Research in Singapore, said yesterday that investors were nervous about Tiger's competitive prospects, adding that a Jetstar-AirAsia deal could "cripple" the Singapore airline
Remember this is a new start airline that has never made a profit.
I do not apologize for disliking the way Tiger does business. Personally I don't think they have a profitable future in Australia. There is low cost overheads and then there is cut everything to the bare bones and contempt for passengers - It just doesn't fit in Australia.
The only way Tiger is filling planes is with very heavy discounting. There's clearly a boycott of Tiger by any regular air traveler. This has left Tiger with the bottom of the heap leisure passenger.
I have regularly followed Tiger's booking engine and they dont sell any where enough fares at high levels to ever make a sustained profit, IMO. Business passengers, which are needed in the Australia market to profit, will NOT travel with Tiger's arrogant attitude
And their arrogance is reflected in their attempt to float on the stock exchange with an order for
50 more brand new A320. I note their current fleet is just 7Seriously have a good think before you buy any shares. Remember Compass folks?
Last edited by 1a sound asleep; 7th Jan 2010 at 01:26.
Whispering "T" Jet
Problem is, when the CEO states "It could be sometime before we pay a dividend", who is going to invest their hard earned into an investment that may never give you a return. Even hard to see the par price rising given the competition Qantas, Jetsar and Air Asia are about to launch.
Yes.................if I were a sceptic, I may think that $200 million from naive investors would be a nice little amount to wind up operations in Oz and get back to Singapore.
Yes.................if I were a sceptic, I may think that $200 million from naive investors would be a nice little amount to wind up operations in Oz and get back to Singapore.
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To me Tiger has some similarities to Skybus, which represent challenges Ryanair (Tiger's model) did not face.
Both are ULLC entering a market where there are existing and established LCC competitors who by comparsion offer a superior product generally at prices customers consider acceptable/affordable. Combine this with the ability for the existing players to take advantage of their economies of scale (share fixed costs over more planes, more options for recovering from MX problems etc), better route network and frequency, and to sell elsewise empty seats at low prices and life will be very hard for the ULCC.
In my mind neither Tiger OZ nor Skybus understood that their market already had expectations as to what a LCC should offer and that this expectation is at a level above what they deliver(ed).
While Ryanairs CEO often talks about how important it is for them to be ULLC, he doésn't talk about how important timing and location was to their success. Ryanair took off by being one of the first to take advantage of changes in regulation at a time when the competition was high cost - high fare, and the potential market for leisure/visiting family travel on the early routes (eg UK - Ireland) offered high growth with relatively moderate flight lengths (ie shorter than Aust routes) which kept costs low. In short they were not competiting on a route by route basis with a LCC (and initially they avoided head on competition with charters) and got the first mover advantage.
Both are ULLC entering a market where there are existing and established LCC competitors who by comparsion offer a superior product generally at prices customers consider acceptable/affordable. Combine this with the ability for the existing players to take advantage of their economies of scale (share fixed costs over more planes, more options for recovering from MX problems etc), better route network and frequency, and to sell elsewise empty seats at low prices and life will be very hard for the ULCC.
In my mind neither Tiger OZ nor Skybus understood that their market already had expectations as to what a LCC should offer and that this expectation is at a level above what they deliver(ed).
While Ryanairs CEO often talks about how important it is for them to be ULLC, he doésn't talk about how important timing and location was to their success. Ryanair took off by being one of the first to take advantage of changes in regulation at a time when the competition was high cost - high fare, and the potential market for leisure/visiting family travel on the early routes (eg UK - Ireland) offered high growth with relatively moderate flight lengths (ie shorter than Aust routes) which kept costs low. In short they were not competiting on a route by route basis with a LCC (and initially they avoided head on competition with charters) and got the first mover advantage.
"In my mind neither Tiger OZ nor Skybus understood that their market already had expectations as to what a LCC should offer and that this expectation is at a level above what they deliver(ed)."
Exactly. I repeat that QF/DJ/JQ all get a fair share of the business market and the higher yield. Tiger gets none of this. I am sorry but Tiger is destined to fail. Maybe 12 months maximum
Exactly. I repeat that QF/DJ/JQ all get a fair share of the business market and the higher yield. Tiger gets none of this. I am sorry but Tiger is destined to fail. Maybe 12 months maximum
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I wouldn't say they are Tiger are to withdraw from the Domestic market, financial goals and targets have improved quite significantly. Losses amounted to 4million in the last six months vs 25million the previous year. Cost base is nearly lower than AirAsia, and once more aircraft arrive this will continue to fall and work to their advantage. Also read this statement:
"Tiger's consolidated unit cost per ASK (available seat kilometre) came to 4.7 US cents for FY2009, just above AirAsia’s 3.8 US cents, and better than Ryanair’s five US cents. This fell further to four US cents during the first half of the current financial year. In fact, its cost per seat (ex-fuel) has fallen steadily from US$44 for FY2008, to US$40.3 for FY2009 to US$32.7 during the first half. The airline also boasts a much leaner staffing, with just 33 employees per aircraft, versus 77 for AirAsia and 65 for Jetstar"
I agree in that Tiger Australia has many similarities to Skybus, although Tiger has posted profits and does has the Singapore operation as well as Australia. And to further what windytown said, Tiger has a better chance of crippling in 2008 than now. The shareholders stated they wanted the reins of the Australian domestic market, fair enough, BUT it was who they put in charge that destroyed Tiger and that has effected the entire group. He is obviously no longer with the airline anymore but cost the airline millions that was then left to Shelley Roberts to deal with. $20 million has been spent on getting staff numbers back up to a decent level to avoid piles of flights being canceled, stranding people, putting them up in Hotels all costing them millions again, all thanks to that arsehole.. It all leads back to the disastrous image they have right now, if they operated with integrity and didn't screw their employees, well then they wouldn't be such a bad position right now. It could be fair to say that they still screw around their cabin crew, but not to the extent back in 2008.
Putting that aside, they need to pay deposits for $800 million in 2 years, whilst floating in debt and no real big profit being estimated. Its going to be an interesting run.
Well, they say its the year of the Tiger after all
"Tiger's consolidated unit cost per ASK (available seat kilometre) came to 4.7 US cents for FY2009, just above AirAsia’s 3.8 US cents, and better than Ryanair’s five US cents. This fell further to four US cents during the first half of the current financial year. In fact, its cost per seat (ex-fuel) has fallen steadily from US$44 for FY2008, to US$40.3 for FY2009 to US$32.7 during the first half. The airline also boasts a much leaner staffing, with just 33 employees per aircraft, versus 77 for AirAsia and 65 for Jetstar"
I agree in that Tiger Australia has many similarities to Skybus, although Tiger has posted profits and does has the Singapore operation as well as Australia. And to further what windytown said, Tiger has a better chance of crippling in 2008 than now. The shareholders stated they wanted the reins of the Australian domestic market, fair enough, BUT it was who they put in charge that destroyed Tiger and that has effected the entire group. He is obviously no longer with the airline anymore but cost the airline millions that was then left to Shelley Roberts to deal with. $20 million has been spent on getting staff numbers back up to a decent level to avoid piles of flights being canceled, stranding people, putting them up in Hotels all costing them millions again, all thanks to that arsehole.. It all leads back to the disastrous image they have right now, if they operated with integrity and didn't screw their employees, well then they wouldn't be such a bad position right now. It could be fair to say that they still screw around their cabin crew, but not to the extent back in 2008.
Putting that aside, they need to pay deposits for $800 million in 2 years, whilst floating in debt and no real big profit being estimated. Its going to be an interesting run.
Well, they say its the year of the Tiger after all
Last edited by Sunstar320; 7th Jan 2010 at 07:26.
I see no profits only loss - profit improved by S$24.7m from a loss of S$14.8m FY 31 March 2007 to a profit of S$9.9m FY 31 March 2008. So thats still a total loss.
The airline had $S18.5m in cash at September 30 with a net liability position of $S106.8m as it faces payments of $US778m for aircraft alone by the end of fiscal 2012
Would-be investors should note that Tiger's debts exceed its assets by $S107 million and that possibly includes book value (over valued assets).
Indigo intends to sell part of its 24 per cent stake into the offer while Ryanasia will reduce its 16 per cent holding if an over-allotment is triggered. This indicates that the founders are running for cover
Sorry I dont see any future. Well I see more future in Asia , but certainly not in Australia
The airline had $S18.5m in cash at September 30 with a net liability position of $S106.8m as it faces payments of $US778m for aircraft alone by the end of fiscal 2012
Would-be investors should note that Tiger's debts exceed its assets by $S107 million and that possibly includes book value (over valued assets).
Indigo intends to sell part of its 24 per cent stake into the offer while Ryanasia will reduce its 16 per cent holding if an over-allotment is triggered. This indicates that the founders are running for cover
Sorry I dont see any future. Well I see more future in Asia , but certainly not in Australia
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2010 will be a different year for Tiger Australia, more aircraft & more routes. Soon to start MEL/BNE, BNE/ROK & ADL/BNE and no doubt more announcements in the near future.
The Oz operation has been successful in staying alive and growing despite the poor running of the operation early on and poor public perception. However, from here on end, (theoretically) the teething issues will be sorted outout the more people keep flying Tiger (the load factors are very positive) the more the public will realise that they can actually get from A to B without drama 99% of the time. Yes Tiger had lots of flight cancelled, but with more aircraft they can now manage the schedule better than with what they had before. Point being things should get smoother with more aircraft, so to the balance sheets.
Latest figures published show MARCH 31st - SEPTEMBER 30th 2009 loss significantly less than the same period 12 months prior. The total loss of $80 million in 2 years was mostly accounted for and pre-planned, something the newspapers fail to publish / accept / realise.
Early indications were that Tiger Oz would make profit in less time than Singapore (3 years), if this will not be achieved (probably not) it wont be far off.
If Tiger Management are reading this, which I'm sure some do, you really ought to do something more proactive about the airline's public perception. It's quite ****
The Oz operation has been successful in staying alive and growing despite the poor running of the operation early on and poor public perception. However, from here on end, (theoretically) the teething issues will be sorted outout the more people keep flying Tiger (the load factors are very positive) the more the public will realise that they can actually get from A to B without drama 99% of the time. Yes Tiger had lots of flight cancelled, but with more aircraft they can now manage the schedule better than with what they had before. Point being things should get smoother with more aircraft, so to the balance sheets.
Latest figures published show MARCH 31st - SEPTEMBER 30th 2009 loss significantly less than the same period 12 months prior. The total loss of $80 million in 2 years was mostly accounted for and pre-planned, something the newspapers fail to publish / accept / realise.
Early indications were that Tiger Oz would make profit in less time than Singapore (3 years), if this will not be achieved (probably not) it wont be far off.
If Tiger Management are reading this, which I'm sure some do, you really ought to do something more proactive about the airline's public perception. It's quite ****
"Public perception of a ultra low cost carrier hmmm !! - look at Ryanair's media coverage, does MOL care. If it's cheap enough they'll fly Tiger again."
Tiger-Palm there is quite a difference between Ryanair and Tiger's ops in Australia. The only way Tiger can fill planes is with low yielding low paying pax that will never make a profit
Ryanair actually does have good on time departure record and they actually do attract a surprising amount of business pax as well. Their yeilds are surprisingly better than many expect. When Ryanair started ops they didn't have other LCC operators to compete with
Tiger on the other hand has everything going against it.
- Very Bad Reputation of arrogance and poor service
- Excessive cancelled or legthy delays
- No Australia based call centre. No 1300 call number
- POOR yields
- No email. Yes that's right you CANT even email them
- Grossly Excessive fees
- No free seat selection
- No connection service
- Inadequate route structure to compete with QF/JQ/DJ
The only business Tiger gets in Australia is the Greyhound Bus passengers looking for a cheaper alternative. It is an unsustainable model. Trying to bring a Ryanair model to Australia when there are other better value, more reliable, Australian owned airlines here just wont work long term.
I feel sorry for the Tiger employees who have worked hard with an inadequate and unresearched management team. My advice to them is get a job with one of the other airlines as soon as you can. The managmenet team need a job at crazy clarks
Tiger is unlikely to ever make a profit in Australia. About the only exception would be if the world fleet of B737 was grounded.
EDIT - Anybody who doubts how bad Tiger is should read some of the reviews. When you see an alarming number of very disgruntled passengers like this it must ring alarm bells with any potential investor. Tiger Airways Reviews and Tiger Airways Passenger Opinions about Tiger Airways product and service standards
Tiger-Palm there is quite a difference between Ryanair and Tiger's ops in Australia. The only way Tiger can fill planes is with low yielding low paying pax that will never make a profit
Ryanair actually does have good on time departure record and they actually do attract a surprising amount of business pax as well. Their yeilds are surprisingly better than many expect. When Ryanair started ops they didn't have other LCC operators to compete with
Tiger on the other hand has everything going against it.
- Very Bad Reputation of arrogance and poor service
- Excessive cancelled or legthy delays
- No Australia based call centre. No 1300 call number
- POOR yields
- No email. Yes that's right you CANT even email them
- Grossly Excessive fees
- No free seat selection
- No connection service
- Inadequate route structure to compete with QF/JQ/DJ
The only business Tiger gets in Australia is the Greyhound Bus passengers looking for a cheaper alternative. It is an unsustainable model. Trying to bring a Ryanair model to Australia when there are other better value, more reliable, Australian owned airlines here just wont work long term.
I feel sorry for the Tiger employees who have worked hard with an inadequate and unresearched management team. My advice to them is get a job with one of the other airlines as soon as you can. The managmenet team need a job at crazy clarks
Tiger is unlikely to ever make a profit in Australia. About the only exception would be if the world fleet of B737 was grounded.
EDIT - Anybody who doubts how bad Tiger is should read some of the reviews. When you see an alarming number of very disgruntled passengers like this it must ring alarm bells with any potential investor. Tiger Airways Reviews and Tiger Airways Passenger Opinions about Tiger Airways product and service standards
Last edited by 1a sound asleep; 7th Jan 2010 at 08:12.
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"Am I going to come up and set up and AirAsia Australia? No. Tiger is on drugs doing it."
"You (Tiger) are sitting on a market of a billion people and you go and put half your capacity in a market of 24 million people which has two pretty strong airlines; it doesn't make sense to me."
Despite the vested interests, I think he makes a valid point.
Last edited by breakfastburrito; 7th Jan 2010 at 08:17. Reason: source correction
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First of all, I live in Europe. I have no elegances with either airline.
From my experience flying with Tiger is exactly the same as flying with Jet Star. Can the Jet Star fans please stop talking down to Tiger? They are you equal!
From my experience flying with Tiger is exactly the same as flying with Jet Star. Can the Jet Star fans please stop talking down to Tiger? They are you equal!
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1a sound asleep
F@rk!n hell. Take it easy pal. There's no need to proliferate the Coward st propaganda here buddy. We get enough of that bullsh!t from the print media.
J* mid level management puppets need to think more about how they are going to head off this Singapore onslaught and less about posting worthless and unsubstantiated drivel on prune.
F@rk!n hell. Take it easy pal. There's no need to proliferate the Coward st propaganda here buddy. We get enough of that bullsh!t from the print media.
J* mid level management puppets need to think more about how they are going to head off this Singapore onslaught and less about posting worthless and unsubstantiated drivel on prune.
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Tiger Update
In this afternoon's 'The Australain'.
TIGER Airways, based in Singapore, is seeking to raise as much as $S273 million ($213.7m) in an optimistic initial public offering that values its shares at between $S1.35 and $S1.65.
The airline wants to sell about 165 million shares, which would represent about 30 per cent of its final register, to set up new bases, fund aircraft and pay off loans.
Most of the shares will be a new issue, but 5.8 per cent will come from current investor Indigo partners.
Ryan family vehicle RyanAsia has also said it will sell down some of its stake if the IPO is oversubscribed, but Singapore Airlines, which holds 49 per cent, and Singapore government investment arm Temasek are not selling.
The indicative price values the shares at 11.4 to 13.9 times forecast 2011 earnings. Tiger Aviation posted a net loss of $S51m in the year to March 31, compared with a $S9.8m profit the previous year, and its cash reserves slumped from $S33.4m to $S13.2m.
Meanwhile, Jetstar and AirAsia denied that they had announced a cost-cutting alliance on the same day as the start of Tiger's investment roadshow with the goal of undermining its float.
AirAsia chief executive Tony Fernandes blamed the timing on the difficulty of getting the airlines' chief executives together on the same day.
Mr Fernandes welcomed the Tiger IPO, saying another publicly listed low-cost carrier would give AirAsia something against which it could compare its performance.
TIGER Airways, based in Singapore, is seeking to raise as much as $S273 million ($213.7m) in an optimistic initial public offering that values its shares at between $S1.35 and $S1.65.
The airline wants to sell about 165 million shares, which would represent about 30 per cent of its final register, to set up new bases, fund aircraft and pay off loans.
Most of the shares will be a new issue, but 5.8 per cent will come from current investor Indigo partners.
Ryan family vehicle RyanAsia has also said it will sell down some of its stake if the IPO is oversubscribed, but Singapore Airlines, which holds 49 per cent, and Singapore government investment arm Temasek are not selling.
The indicative price values the shares at 11.4 to 13.9 times forecast 2011 earnings. Tiger Aviation posted a net loss of $S51m in the year to March 31, compared with a $S9.8m profit the previous year, and its cash reserves slumped from $S33.4m to $S13.2m.
Meanwhile, Jetstar and AirAsia denied that they had announced a cost-cutting alliance on the same day as the start of Tiger's investment roadshow with the goal of undermining its float.
AirAsia chief executive Tony Fernandes blamed the timing on the difficulty of getting the airlines' chief executives together on the same day.
Mr Fernandes welcomed the Tiger IPO, saying another publicly listed low-cost carrier would give AirAsia something against which it could compare its performance.
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Why do you say that? Have the share holders passed on this info to you or are you just talking out of your ar$e?
Tell me. Is there a reason why SQ and Tamasek are not interested in selling out of Tiger in this IPO?
Tell me. Is there a reason why SQ and Tamasek are not interested in selling out of Tiger in this IPO?