Merged: Tiger Tales
Whispering "T" Jet
I earn more "pocket money" driving a bus for the local Council......AND they pay for my uniform, car parking,lunch and I didn't have to pay $35,000 for my "bus" rating!
I don't have to deal with idiot Managers and I endure zero stress in the job.
You hang in there Fooey in that great career of airline pilot and in 10 years time we'll get together and compare our health and wealth.
I don't have to deal with idiot Managers and I endure zero stress in the job.
You hang in there Fooey in that great career of airline pilot and in 10 years time we'll get together and compare our health and wealth.
With Jetstar pulling out of ROK from MAY and Tiger starting late March.
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I must be missing something. Can you tell which council pay's 75K plus $36 per block hour for driving a bus? Because if you can I'm there!
Sure you have to pay for some things as a pilot with Tiger but at some point you have to weigh up how you wan't to spend your time. Each to his own and I don't blame anyone for going with them, its a straight deal, take it or leave it. That goes for the customers as well.
SN
I must be missing something. Can you tell which council pay's 75K plus $36 per block hour for driving a bus? Because if you can I'm there!
Sure you have to pay for some things as a pilot with Tiger but at some point you have to weigh up how you wan't to spend your time. Each to his own and I don't blame anyone for going with them, its a straight deal, take it or leave it. That goes for the customers as well.
SN
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Look at it from an investment point of view.
$28,000 endorsement (Ansett Sim Centre)
$650 intitial uniform cost
$105,000 - $110,000 salary per year (FROM DAY 1) F/O
$60 parking fee per month
$10,000 tax rebate from endorsment
$150 per year replacement shirts
Bring your own lunch
Be home everynight
After 1-2 years (under a year for some)
Salary increases to $170,000 - $180,000
Pay for the extra bar to be put on your jacket $10
After 1 year in the LHS with bus time, suddenly very different position than you were flying a turboprop 2 years prior on $70,000
$28,000 endorsement (Ansett Sim Centre)
$650 intitial uniform cost
$105,000 - $110,000 salary per year (FROM DAY 1) F/O
$60 parking fee per month
$10,000 tax rebate from endorsment
$150 per year replacement shirts
Bring your own lunch
Be home everynight
After 1-2 years (under a year for some)
Salary increases to $170,000 - $180,000
Pay for the extra bar to be put on your jacket $10
After 1 year in the LHS with bus time, suddenly very different position than you were flying a turboprop 2 years prior on $70,000
Sounds like a no-brainer to me MrSheffield... And considering these growing airlines, such as Tiger and Jetstar are going to be looking for a LOT of pilots over the next year or so the question is.. Why wouldn't you?
Sheff, an additional line on your summation should be:-
Then rue for the rest of your career that you assisted in lowering your future earnings and conditions.
Generally, it's better to take a long term view of career decisions.
Then rue for the rest of your career that you assisted in lowering your future earnings and conditions.
Generally, it's better to take a long term view of career decisions.
Or from another view.
Get an apprenticeship, go to tech and become a tradesman - negligible cost
Go to Lowes - buy some stubbies and a flanny - $40
Buy a ute - paint name on side (tax deductable)
Get job building desal plant - $150,000
Travel allowance - $700/wk = total package $200k
Take an esky with your lunch to work - can even have a steel knife.
Save that old pilot uniform for fancy dress parties
Priceless
the age
Get an apprenticeship, go to tech and become a tradesman - negligible cost
Go to Lowes - buy some stubbies and a flanny - $40
Buy a ute - paint name on side (tax deductable)
Get job building desal plant - $150,000
Travel allowance - $700/wk = total package $200k
Take an esky with your lunch to work - can even have a steel knife.
Save that old pilot uniform for fancy dress parties
Priceless
the age
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Thanks for the advice Going Boeing. But I know one too many pilots who turned their nose up at LCCs for reasons such as 'dont want to lower conditions for everyone else, im too good for an LCC, I want Qantas or Cathay' and have unfortunately never been offered a gig with their airline of choice, and are still to this day slaving away in GA, now begging for a job with the likes of Jetstar or Tiger.
Point being, yes its good advice to the kids to say no to the conditions offered by LCCs, but be warned - an airline job is not offered every day. hell some don't ever get the offer.
If tiger or jetstar offer 100K+ you cant blame the pilot whos currently on 40K and has 2 kids and a wife to feed for not knockingback the opportunity.
Point being, yes its good advice to the kids to say no to the conditions offered by LCCs, but be warned - an airline job is not offered every day. hell some don't ever get the offer.
If tiger or jetstar offer 100K+ you cant blame the pilot whos currently on 40K and has 2 kids and a wife to feed for not knockingback the opportunity.
Sheff, I appreciate the polite way that you responded to my post.
Every pilot these days is effectively walking a tightrope as to the best way to further their career - what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another (and I do understand what you said about supporting a wife and two kids - I spent the first 6 months of my Qantas career living in a caravan with my wife and 2 daughters).
When I said to take a long term view about your career decisions, I was thinking about approx 70 DJ pilots and about 15 QF pilots who left their Oz jobs for a career in the sandpit in the period 2006-07. Every pilot wants to have a command and that influences their long term decisions - for the majority the over-riding reason is job satisfaction, for the minority, it's for the money. There have been a number of posts on PPRuNe about why you would become an S/O with QF when you can become an F/O with DJ, JQ or TT. These 3 airlines offer you the immediate job satisfaction of a RHS and the lure of a quick command. The RHS job is there for you if you pay for it, the quick command may or may not eventuate. Quick commands basically depend on an airline expanding and growing its fleet size. My take of what happened and may happen at these airlines is:-
DJ will now have to claw away to earn every % of market share as the glory days post the collapse of AN are well and truly over - they are not going to expand nearly as rapidly as in the past and as the majority of captains are relatively young (thanks to quick commands) they are not going to retire in the near future. The only significant growth that I potentially see for DJ is in the regional market or internationally through V Oz (a very high risk growth area). It appears that the majority of DJ pilots who left for the sandpit in the past were tired of flying the same aircraft type to the same destinations with minimum rest and the lure of flying shiny new B777's/A380's etc to exotic destinations around the world was very strong despite the obvious domestic negatives. If the posts on this forum about pilots currently overseas who are prepared to accept substandard T's & C's to work for any airline that allows them to live in Oz are true, then it appears that many have made a bad decision.
JQ has had a very easy launch into the market in that they were given routes that had been developed by mainline (low yield) and thus grew rapidly (original order 23 A320's). Then they were given A332's from mainline to fly internationally - again most routes were originally developed by mainline. All up it made for spectacular advancement of some careers (ie the ex Impulse pilots) as well as rejuvenating the careers of some ex AN pilots. The problem for any one proposing to join JQ OZ now is that most of the future expansion looks likely to be in the "sibling" airlines - JQ NZ, JQ Asia & JQ Pacific. Thus new hires are in the same position re quick command as if they joined DJ - minimal expansion and minimal retirement.
TT is the only airline that I see still has the potential to expand rapidly - that will only happen if the other airlines allow it to. Domestic flying in Oz can only make a profit if the demand balances the capacity and thus realistic yields are achieved. Most "experts" believe that TT is one airline too many to allow sustainable yields and therefore, the other airlines will keep the pressure on TT to restrict its ability to expand.
Those who believe that becoming a QF S/O is beneath them fail to look at the long term benefits: - Despite taking longer to achieve command, QF pilots have the ability to choose a career path that suits their circumstances. If you enjoy long haul flying which gives great travel opportunities, social life, increased route knowledge, etc, or if you prefer domestic flying to enable you to be home with your wife & kids for more nights, you can choose the aircraft type that gives you the lifestyle that you want by deciding when and what aircraft type you want to do your promotion training on. When you do gain your command, you are then not stuck on that type - you can move to other types or stay on your current type as you choose. By having a choice of aircraft types, you can have variety right through to retirement whereas looking at potential careers in LCC's, many pilots get tempted to move overseas simply to experience a change.
Whichever path you choose I wish you a long and happy career. GB
Every pilot these days is effectively walking a tightrope as to the best way to further their career - what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another (and I do understand what you said about supporting a wife and two kids - I spent the first 6 months of my Qantas career living in a caravan with my wife and 2 daughters).
When I said to take a long term view about your career decisions, I was thinking about approx 70 DJ pilots and about 15 QF pilots who left their Oz jobs for a career in the sandpit in the period 2006-07. Every pilot wants to have a command and that influences their long term decisions - for the majority the over-riding reason is job satisfaction, for the minority, it's for the money. There have been a number of posts on PPRuNe about why you would become an S/O with QF when you can become an F/O with DJ, JQ or TT. These 3 airlines offer you the immediate job satisfaction of a RHS and the lure of a quick command. The RHS job is there for you if you pay for it, the quick command may or may not eventuate. Quick commands basically depend on an airline expanding and growing its fleet size. My take of what happened and may happen at these airlines is:-
DJ will now have to claw away to earn every % of market share as the glory days post the collapse of AN are well and truly over - they are not going to expand nearly as rapidly as in the past and as the majority of captains are relatively young (thanks to quick commands) they are not going to retire in the near future. The only significant growth that I potentially see for DJ is in the regional market or internationally through V Oz (a very high risk growth area). It appears that the majority of DJ pilots who left for the sandpit in the past were tired of flying the same aircraft type to the same destinations with minimum rest and the lure of flying shiny new B777's/A380's etc to exotic destinations around the world was very strong despite the obvious domestic negatives. If the posts on this forum about pilots currently overseas who are prepared to accept substandard T's & C's to work for any airline that allows them to live in Oz are true, then it appears that many have made a bad decision.
JQ has had a very easy launch into the market in that they were given routes that had been developed by mainline (low yield) and thus grew rapidly (original order 23 A320's). Then they were given A332's from mainline to fly internationally - again most routes were originally developed by mainline. All up it made for spectacular advancement of some careers (ie the ex Impulse pilots) as well as rejuvenating the careers of some ex AN pilots. The problem for any one proposing to join JQ OZ now is that most of the future expansion looks likely to be in the "sibling" airlines - JQ NZ, JQ Asia & JQ Pacific. Thus new hires are in the same position re quick command as if they joined DJ - minimal expansion and minimal retirement.
TT is the only airline that I see still has the potential to expand rapidly - that will only happen if the other airlines allow it to. Domestic flying in Oz can only make a profit if the demand balances the capacity and thus realistic yields are achieved. Most "experts" believe that TT is one airline too many to allow sustainable yields and therefore, the other airlines will keep the pressure on TT to restrict its ability to expand.
Those who believe that becoming a QF S/O is beneath them fail to look at the long term benefits: - Despite taking longer to achieve command, QF pilots have the ability to choose a career path that suits their circumstances. If you enjoy long haul flying which gives great travel opportunities, social life, increased route knowledge, etc, or if you prefer domestic flying to enable you to be home with your wife & kids for more nights, you can choose the aircraft type that gives you the lifestyle that you want by deciding when and what aircraft type you want to do your promotion training on. When you do gain your command, you are then not stuck on that type - you can move to other types or stay on your current type as you choose. By having a choice of aircraft types, you can have variety right through to retirement whereas looking at potential careers in LCC's, many pilots get tempted to move overseas simply to experience a change.
Whichever path you choose I wish you a long and happy career. GB
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GB
QF is being wound back and this will allow JQ to expand for years to come and provide good career progression.
TT has excellent growth potential as they have the lowest cost business model and this has allowed them to tap into a sector of the community that otherwise would not fly. I predict steady growth for them at about one to two new aircraft per year for the next five years. I don't think JQ or VB are in a position to do much damage to Tiger. If they bring on a fare war they had better have deep pockets because TT can break even whilst they lose $Millions. I suspect this is why it has not already happened.
VB has a product that provides a viable cost effective alternative to QF mainline. I think the big loser out of all this is QF, if they didn't have JQ they would be selling planes to stay afloat as we speak.
There are a lot more pilots looking for jobs flying jets than there are positions at QF mainline and the industry has undergone a step change in remuneration. The LLC's are finding out just how little they can pay for aircrew and when they can't get them they will know they have reached that point. It is only then that T & C's will improve. Lets face it though ~100K for an FO and ~180K (TT) for a Captain are both comfortable salary's. Additionally, these carriers have also been around long enough for a new generation of pilots to be applying who have only ever expected to earn what they pay and therefore will not be dissapointed.
At the end of the day there are a lot more jet pilots around now than ever before and the industry has never been in better health jobs wise. So if you want to fly jets now's the time or just choose another vocation.
SN
QF is being wound back and this will allow JQ to expand for years to come and provide good career progression.
TT has excellent growth potential as they have the lowest cost business model and this has allowed them to tap into a sector of the community that otherwise would not fly. I predict steady growth for them at about one to two new aircraft per year for the next five years. I don't think JQ or VB are in a position to do much damage to Tiger. If they bring on a fare war they had better have deep pockets because TT can break even whilst they lose $Millions. I suspect this is why it has not already happened.
VB has a product that provides a viable cost effective alternative to QF mainline. I think the big loser out of all this is QF, if they didn't have JQ they would be selling planes to stay afloat as we speak.
There are a lot more pilots looking for jobs flying jets than there are positions at QF mainline and the industry has undergone a step change in remuneration. The LLC's are finding out just how little they can pay for aircrew and when they can't get them they will know they have reached that point. It is only then that T & C's will improve. Lets face it though ~100K for an FO and ~180K (TT) for a Captain are both comfortable salary's. Additionally, these carriers have also been around long enough for a new generation of pilots to be applying who have only ever expected to earn what they pay and therefore will not be dissapointed.
At the end of the day there are a lot more jet pilots around now than ever before and the industry has never been in better health jobs wise. So if you want to fly jets now's the time or just choose another vocation.
SN
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No there AREN'T a lot more jet pilots about. They've all retired or nicked off to Emirates and Ethihad and aren't coming back until they chose to.
CPL issues are at an alltime low and why would anybody want to get into the industry? Before the GFC airlines were having real problems getting qualified pilots but that was just a taste of things to come (and I suspect they know it) - yet they don't seriously invest in training for their own futures.
Barring any future major ecoinomic hiccups, In about 1 year they will start to feel the heat of a pilot shortage and in 2 years will have to throw money and/or vastly iomproved T&C's to attract any pilot with a heartbeat? Who is going to fill the seats of all those aircraft ordered?
CPL issues are at an alltime low and why would anybody want to get into the industry? Before the GFC airlines were having real problems getting qualified pilots but that was just a taste of things to come (and I suspect they know it) - yet they don't seriously invest in training for their own futures.
Barring any future major ecoinomic hiccups, In about 1 year they will start to feel the heat of a pilot shortage and in 2 years will have to throw money and/or vastly iomproved T&C's to attract any pilot with a heartbeat? Who is going to fill the seats of all those aircraft ordered?
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And NO - 180k is not aacceptable as being a "comfortable" salary for a Captain, particularly when you have to kill yourself to get that. When council bus drivers are getting 130k these figures need to be put into perspective.
The yardstick should be the $380,000 that a QF 744 captain gets - instead of doing our darendest to undermine those QF Captains we should be cohesively arguing that that salary is the datum.
The yardstick should be the $380,000 that a QF 744 captain gets - instead of doing our darendest to undermine those QF Captains we should be cohesively arguing that that salary is the datum.
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A
When I say there are more jet pilots I mean there would be more jet pilots in the country today than there were say 10 years ago pre LCC. Of course there are less jet pilots on the street, they are all either retired or in jobs due to the abundance of willing employers.
As for the money well, each for his own.
SN
When I say there are more jet pilots I mean there would be more jet pilots in the country today than there were say 10 years ago pre LCC. Of course there are less jet pilots on the street, they are all either retired or in jobs due to the abundance of willing employers.
As for the money well, each for his own.
SN
Additionally, these carriers have also been around long enough for a new generation of pilots to be applying who have only ever expected to earn what they pay and therefore will not be dissapointed.
After starving through non award paying GA operators and sitting right seat in the regionals on check out chick money, first year $100 000 and quick progression to $180 000 doesn't look too bad.
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To tell the whole story tho, to get that kind of money at TT you have to work the full yearly limit to get there. Ask around what doing 900 to 1000 hrs a year is really like.
