Jet* Importing Pilots
Well, anyone waiting for the AFAP to do anything will be sorely disappointed. Lawrie Cox has already sold you out. I heard this on ABC news this morning and had to listen twice. It's been included in the following article:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...26/2255176.htm
YOU'RE DISAPPOINTED LAWRIE?!?!? What a joke. I can really see that bringing in DECs on an A330 is going to do a lot to "train our regional airline pilots and our general aviation pilots quicker."
What about those who work for Jetstar? How do you feel now that your command is being sold to the lowest overseas bidder desperate for an Aussie passport?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...26/2255176.htm
The Australian Federation of Air Pilots says it is disappointed by Jetstar's plans.
Federation spokesman Laurie Cox says the fact that the airlines need to go overseas to fill senior vacancies shows the long-term problem of training in the industry.
He says at least the foreign pilots will be senior enough to help train Australians.
"They'll be direct-entry captains with type-rated experience and they'll be able to go into vacancies and provide training opportunities, which will actually give us opportunities for our regional airline pilots and our general aviation pilots to train quicker," he said.
Federation spokesman Laurie Cox says the fact that the airlines need to go overseas to fill senior vacancies shows the long-term problem of training in the industry.
He says at least the foreign pilots will be senior enough to help train Australians.
"They'll be direct-entry captains with type-rated experience and they'll be able to go into vacancies and provide training opportunities, which will actually give us opportunities for our regional airline pilots and our general aviation pilots to train quicker," he said.
What about those who work for Jetstar? How do you feel now that your command is being sold to the lowest overseas bidder desperate for an Aussie passport?
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Abeam Alice Springs
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Recent comment indicated that there were well over 100 CPL+ holders working in the mines in WA. Pay the $$ and many of these may surface??
Its not a pilot shortage, its a shortage of $$ for pilot's!!
Its not a pilot shortage, its a shortage of $$ for pilot's!!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I said today in several interviews is that we would prefer Australian Pilots doing the job. There is also an MOU between QF, Jetstar and AIPA that if surplus pilots are available in QF we would be happy to see them in preference to a S457.
That is up to AIPA to argue.
My point on the training is that many more Australian pilots will will benefit quicker as a result of type rated pilots being available on either A330 or A320 this is something we are continuing to work on.
Just on another note the incoming pilots will be be paid no better or less conditions than existing employees.
We like others made representations to Government but in the end the Government issued the approvals. No surprise from my point of view as politicians listen to business a lot more than any lobbying by unions (irrespective of party or promises).
The Jetstar pilots and the Federation will be working to minimise the impact of this decsion and no command has been lost (or sold) as a result and none is planned to be lost.
I do not mind being quoted but try and put into context of fact rather than perception for a bent against either the Feds or myself.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
That is up to AIPA to argue.
My point on the training is that many more Australian pilots will will benefit quicker as a result of type rated pilots being available on either A330 or A320 this is something we are continuing to work on.
Just on another note the incoming pilots will be be paid no better or less conditions than existing employees.
We like others made representations to Government but in the end the Government issued the approvals. No surprise from my point of view as politicians listen to business a lot more than any lobbying by unions (irrespective of party or promises).
The Jetstar pilots and the Federation will be working to minimise the impact of this decsion and no command has been lost (or sold) as a result and none is planned to be lost.
I do not mind being quoted but try and put into context of fact rather than perception for a bent against either the Feds or myself.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Jetstar pilots and the Federation will be working to minimise the impact of this decsion and no command has been lost (or sold) as a result and none is planned to be lost.
Will 457 holders will enter J* as Captains or First Officers?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The initial employment is aimed at Captains but if the requirements cannot be met there is a possibility of F/O's longer term. Although we will be working to avoid anything more than necessary to keep AOC requirements.
LC
LC
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Darwin
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Jetstar Pilots are rooted in terms of their seniority if this is allowed to go through unchallenged.
All you F/O's in JQ should be carefully considering how you respond to your commands being given away to foreigners.
Don't hold your breath for the AFAP. They will do anything to get their name on an award.
Poor form Lawrie.
All you F/O's in JQ should be carefully considering how you respond to your commands being given away to foreigners.
Don't hold your breath for the AFAP. They will do anything to get their name on an award.
Poor form Lawrie.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know a couple of Autralian pilots working overseas that have been accepted by J* but have been told they are in a 'holding pattern' until further notice. I guess they know what they are holding for now.
My point on the training is that many more Australian pilots will will benefit quicker as a result of type rated pilots being available on either A330 or A320 this is something we are continuing to work on.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What the
Another fine piece of intelligent thinking. Seniority not affected. Do anything to get their name on the agreement? Wrong but why let facts get in the way of a good 'slag'.
It is a pity more pilots do not spend more time trying to unite as they do to divide then we might actually see some good outcomes.
As said earlier no commands have been given away nor will they be under the EBA which is the direct entry process currently used by the QF pilots.
Bloggs
If they are type rated and waiting a start date get us the details as we are happy to get them in ASAP but if they are recruited non type rated then this is the problem faced in terms of the training pipeline. Again i can only operate with factual information not crew room gossip.
LC
Another fine piece of intelligent thinking. Seniority not affected. Do anything to get their name on the agreement? Wrong but why let facts get in the way of a good 'slag'.
It is a pity more pilots do not spend more time trying to unite as they do to divide then we might actually see some good outcomes.
As said earlier no commands have been given away nor will they be under the EBA which is the direct entry process currently used by the QF pilots.
Bloggs
If they are type rated and waiting a start date get us the details as we are happy to get them in ASAP but if they are recruited non type rated then this is the problem faced in terms of the training pipeline. Again i can only operate with factual information not crew room gossip.
LC
Nunc est bibendum
I guess it's pretty clear now why J* wanted the EBA signed off so quickly....and found the means (AFAP and a compliant JPC) to do it!
It doesn't matter which way you cut it Lawrie, the reality is that had J* responded to market forces and paid their crew what they deserved then they wouldn't need 457 visas to start off with. Your 'support' for them as you've articulated on this forum is surreal. It may not affect seniority but the reality is that a number of qualified pilots ready for upgrade will not be able to avail themselves of that opportunity.
Strange. It appeared to me that this is exactly what AIPA and J* pilots were attempting to do until the AFAP stepped in and sold a sub standard EBA to an expanded pilot group. If I can't vote on a SH EBA- because I'm not covered by it- then why were a bunch of J* crew on AWAs allowed to vote on a (previously voted down) EBA when they were also not subject to it. Don't bother with an answer, you've already shown how far you've been compromised.
It doesn't matter which way you cut it Lawrie, the reality is that had J* responded to market forces and paid their crew what they deserved then they wouldn't need 457 visas to start off with. Your 'support' for them as you've articulated on this forum is surreal. It may not affect seniority but the reality is that a number of qualified pilots ready for upgrade will not be able to avail themselves of that opportunity.
It is a pity more pilots do not spend more time trying to unite as they do to divide then we might actually see some good outcomes.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: tassie
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I say anyone who has joined the AFAP, make it your last year.
They/Lawrie have done NOTHING for the pilots in this country for as long as I can remember and my last straw was when they decided that the JQ EBA was a good deal and should be signed only weeks after stating that it was sub-standard and should be voted down.
They have allowed the managers of these airlines, especially VB and JQ to screw their pilot groups and it's time to make a stand.
I say again, do not give these useless amatures your hard earned anymore.
They/Lawrie have done NOTHING for the pilots in this country for as long as I can remember and my last straw was when they decided that the JQ EBA was a good deal and should be signed only weeks after stating that it was sub-standard and should be voted down.
They have allowed the managers of these airlines, especially VB and JQ to screw their pilot groups and it's time to make a stand.
I say again, do not give these useless amatures your hard earned anymore.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg
I await the outcome of your LH EBA to show me the value of your argument in the meantime Jetstar pilots do enjoy the benefits of the new EBA much to your displeasure it would appear.
Perhaps you may show me a fact in your argument that an F/O is or has been disadvantaged as all currently qualified F/O's have a planned progression in the Company. FACT
Your proposition that AIPA is about unity with due respect is 'full of it'. We tried on several occasions to have constructive conversation with AIPA about uniting only to be shown the door, thats over years not the last five minutes when under threat.
AIPA has not done anything for the Jetstar group than what they are paid to do: PROTECT MAINLINE FLYING. Remember the statements no more than 23 aircraft and the 787 will done by mainline. Also note the Federation has done the work over years despite the sideshow created by AIPA as a distraction because you want control of the flying that you see they are gaining.
Despite the above we keep talking to the leadership of AIPA only to be continually undermined by AIPA propoganda. About time we worked together but trust is something you actually show not just say for the spin.
The vote on the EBA was legal and incorporated every Jetstar pilot who was proposed to be covered by the Agreement and guess what it does. We removed individual contracts and improved the previous document. Yet again a fact.
Keg I appreciate you didnt want an answer so this is to correct the snide innuendo and deal with facts for those who truly are interested in the profession of pilot rather than the power play of the leadership AIPA.
Lawrie Cox
I await the outcome of your LH EBA to show me the value of your argument in the meantime Jetstar pilots do enjoy the benefits of the new EBA much to your displeasure it would appear.
Perhaps you may show me a fact in your argument that an F/O is or has been disadvantaged as all currently qualified F/O's have a planned progression in the Company. FACT
Your proposition that AIPA is about unity with due respect is 'full of it'. We tried on several occasions to have constructive conversation with AIPA about uniting only to be shown the door, thats over years not the last five minutes when under threat.
AIPA has not done anything for the Jetstar group than what they are paid to do: PROTECT MAINLINE FLYING. Remember the statements no more than 23 aircraft and the 787 will done by mainline. Also note the Federation has done the work over years despite the sideshow created by AIPA as a distraction because you want control of the flying that you see they are gaining.
Despite the above we keep talking to the leadership of AIPA only to be continually undermined by AIPA propoganda. About time we worked together but trust is something you actually show not just say for the spin.
The vote on the EBA was legal and incorporated every Jetstar pilot who was proposed to be covered by the Agreement and guess what it does. We removed individual contracts and improved the previous document. Yet again a fact.
Keg I appreciate you didnt want an answer so this is to correct the snide innuendo and deal with facts for those who truly are interested in the profession of pilot rather than the power play of the leadership AIPA.
Lawrie Cox
I don't believe I'm reading this.
457 Visas to bring in foreigners to do a job plenty of Aussies (it appears) are capable of doing. It appears big business want "supply and demand" to be a one way street.
No command may have been lost, but in the not too distant future plenty won't have a command they otherwise would.
And the Union thinks this good?
457 Visas to bring in foreigners to do a job plenty of Aussies (it appears) are capable of doing. It appears big business want "supply and demand" to be a one way street.
No command may have been lost, but in the not too distant future plenty won't have a command they otherwise would.
And the Union thinks this good?
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who's running these 457 visa's? Sounds to me like Lawrie is in it up to his eyeballs:
We, the royal we. AFAP is now doing AJ's bidding. These are all quotes that sound like they have come straight from Joyce, not a union.
How about the facts Lawrie?
There is absolutely no shortage of qualified Australian pilots in this world (in fact, quite the contrary), there is just a shortage of those who will prostitute themselves for a sub standard wage.
These opportunities should be given in house first, within the QF group (particularly Qlink) 2nd and qualified Aussies abroad 3rd. Thats it full stop. There are so many pilots in those three options that you could crew three airlines, but the problem is you might have to pay industry standard wages. Rather than do that J* know they can lure what are effectively political refugees from SA at any price with the Aussie passport as the payoff. Disgraceful.
We do not need foreigners coming in, yet you don't just stand by as it happens, it sounds like you are actually materially assisting the process.
I hope the Jetstar guys can now see who they got into bed with.
There is also an MOU between QF, Jetstar and AIPA that if surplus pilots are available in QF we would be happy to see them in preference to a S457.
My point on the training is that many more Australian pilots will will benefit quicker as a result of type rated pilots being available on either A330 or A320 this is something we are continuing to work on.
The initial employment is aimed at Captains but if the requirements cannot be met there is a possibility of F/O's longer term. Although we will be working to avoid anything more than necessary to keep AOC requirements.
If they are type rated and waiting a start date get us the details as we are happy to get them in ASAP but if they are recruited non type rated then this is the problem faced in terms of the training pipeline.
How about the facts Lawrie?
There is absolutely no shortage of qualified Australian pilots in this world (in fact, quite the contrary), there is just a shortage of those who will prostitute themselves for a sub standard wage.
These opportunities should be given in house first, within the QF group (particularly Qlink) 2nd and qualified Aussies abroad 3rd. Thats it full stop. There are so many pilots in those three options that you could crew three airlines, but the problem is you might have to pay industry standard wages. Rather than do that J* know they can lure what are effectively political refugees from SA at any price with the Aussie passport as the payoff. Disgraceful.
We do not need foreigners coming in, yet you don't just stand by as it happens, it sounds like you are actually materially assisting the process.
I hope the Jetstar guys can now see who they got into bed with.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MH
People can make up their own minds about the Federation. As for the ill informed comment look at the real outcomes against false promises what is on paper will always outweigh the crew room or bar sniping by the 'Perry Mason's' of the pilot fraternity.
Obvious that you do not read or you would have seen the changes and what is in the document and supported by the majority of Jetstar pilots.
CBR
I did not say we are happy about it. Look for the alternates as i have stated AIPA can run the QF pilots alternative if available and we support it. Our position is clear if we have Australian pilots available then clearly we will fight to have them there. GIVE US FACTS please not high hopes.
LC
People can make up their own minds about the Federation. As for the ill informed comment look at the real outcomes against false promises what is on paper will always outweigh the crew room or bar sniping by the 'Perry Mason's' of the pilot fraternity.
Obvious that you do not read or you would have seen the changes and what is in the document and supported by the majority of Jetstar pilots.
CBR
I did not say we are happy about it. Look for the alternates as i have stated AIPA can run the QF pilots alternative if available and we support it. Our position is clear if we have Australian pilots available then clearly we will fight to have them there. GIVE US FACTS please not high hopes.
LC
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speedy
I am not running the Company argument the facts are that the Government approved the S457 despite opposition from all pilot bodies. Yes I know of pilots that would come home tomorrow for the right price.
I do not set the price that you feel is right to come home too.
Thats also democracy you have the choice not to come home as well, or wait until it moves to a point where you will be happy.
I also make this observation which is clearly forgotten by some we are just as often criticised by fellow pilots in other countries for coming into to do 'their' work but that appears to be OK on your standard but not if they appear here at the same T&C's that apply at present?
As the Industrial sysytem that you may have been familar with was dismantled some time back we have to work with the available tools not high hopes.
LC
I am not running the Company argument the facts are that the Government approved the S457 despite opposition from all pilot bodies. Yes I know of pilots that would come home tomorrow for the right price.
I do not set the price that you feel is right to come home too.
Thats also democracy you have the choice not to come home as well, or wait until it moves to a point where you will be happy.
I also make this observation which is clearly forgotten by some we are just as often criticised by fellow pilots in other countries for coming into to do 'their' work but that appears to be OK on your standard but not if they appear here at the same T&C's that apply at present?
As the Industrial sysytem that you may have been familar with was dismantled some time back we have to work with the available tools not high hopes.
LC
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Despite the continuing assertion that Jetstar are low paid and have poor conditions still no one has picked up on the letter from Capt. Woods that under the EBA Jetstar pilots got a 17% payrise. I'm still to be convinced that Jetstar is about to be inundated with foreign pilots. There is a whole swag of Command training going on at the moment and they are all internal upgrades.
From a non-airline pilot trying to get a grasp of this...
J* Offer DEC to foreign pilots because they don't have the numbers to fill the seats, fair call as this doesn't take away from FOs moving up. However there are Aussie pilots flying overseas current as Capt. on type who would come home if the price was right. Airlines don’t want to pay the price and therefore declare shortage of pilots. Using this declaration the airlines then get permission to bring in foreign pilots to do the job.....
Could I use this same logic and say.... offer a job paying $10hr to work at KFC, no one wants to work for $10 so I say I have a worker shortage, the gov then gives me 457V and I get a bunch of foreign workers over to do the job. Because this cheap workforce is now available I can pay the rest of my staff $10 as if they don't like it I can replace them with more foreign workers... Am I close???
J* Offer DEC to foreign pilots because they don't have the numbers to fill the seats, fair call as this doesn't take away from FOs moving up. However there are Aussie pilots flying overseas current as Capt. on type who would come home if the price was right. Airlines don’t want to pay the price and therefore declare shortage of pilots. Using this declaration the airlines then get permission to bring in foreign pilots to do the job.....
Could I use this same logic and say.... offer a job paying $10hr to work at KFC, no one wants to work for $10 so I say I have a worker shortage, the gov then gives me 457V and I get a bunch of foreign workers over to do the job. Because this cheap workforce is now available I can pay the rest of my staff $10 as if they don't like it I can replace them with more foreign workers... Am I close???
Nunc est bibendum
I do not set the price that you feel is right to come home too.
The reality is Lawrie that it is the actions of AFAP that have resulted in these 457 visas. Had AIPA, AFAP and the JPC worked together on the EBA then perhaps we would have seen Aussies getting these jobs or even- heaven forbid- QF S/Os getting F/O slots in J* as J* F/Os upgraded to Captain!
There is no shortage of pilots in Australia, just a shortage of those willing to work for crap conditions. The JPC and AFAP endorsed those conditions and therefore you have endorsed the use of 457 visa holders. Well done Lawrie. Well done.
