Say NO to 457 visas.
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The Pay...
Well this is what they are offering....
Q-link First Officer
x Base Wage $51,100
x Superannuation (9% of base wage) $4,500
x Loss of Licence Insurance $1,750
x Overnight Allowances ($100/night, say 40 nights p.a.) $4,000
x Communication Allowance (p.a.) $500
TOTAL monetary package $61,850
Not bad considering that in South Africa one can end up working on a 737-200 doing 90hrs plus per month getting a TOTAL monetary package of ....... wait for it........
$32432.00 per year GROSS - No Loss of license, No Superannuation,No Communication Allowance, No lotsa things....
Q-link First Officer
x Base Wage $51,100
x Superannuation (9% of base wage) $4,500
x Loss of Licence Insurance $1,750
x Overnight Allowances ($100/night, say 40 nights p.a.) $4,000
x Communication Allowance (p.a.) $500
TOTAL monetary package $61,850
Not bad considering that in South Africa one can end up working on a 737-200 doing 90hrs plus per month getting a TOTAL monetary package of ....... wait for it........
$32432.00 per year GROSS - No Loss of license, No Superannuation,No Communication Allowance, No lotsa things....
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Facts of Life
Trubru, what your paid in your country is your problem, you guys ,like the ozzies have to tackle this at home. You know that Oz have enough drivers to fill these jobs, and some left over, so after thats done, you can fill your boots.
I work in Sing., i'm here because they need me, the minute they don't, bye bye. So when they don't need all the expats in oz, kick em out,same rules.
ACMS, i'm with you
I work in Sing., i'm here because they need me, the minute they don't, bye bye. So when they don't need all the expats in oz, kick em out,same rules.
ACMS, i'm with you
Gents,
I'm one of those displaced Aussies that would love to return home from overseas. I've got about 6000TT, 3000 Jet and 500 P1 Jet. My CASA ATPL is up to date as far as the Class 1 and IR renewal are concerned and I've yet to get a nibble from anyone other than NJS.
If I was in my 20's and didn't mind being poor again, I'd have given NJS a go but I can't justify going backwards in terms of pay. $62k is simply not enough for a right seat, jet job.
I'm amazed that Australian pilots have been as quiet as they have about the Yarpies heading over to work for QF Link and Jetstar. It's a very slippery slope and will have serious repercussions for years to come.
I'm one of those displaced Aussies that would love to return home from overseas. I've got about 6000TT, 3000 Jet and 500 P1 Jet. My CASA ATPL is up to date as far as the Class 1 and IR renewal are concerned and I've yet to get a nibble from anyone other than NJS.
If I was in my 20's and didn't mind being poor again, I'd have given NJS a go but I can't justify going backwards in terms of pay. $62k is simply not enough for a right seat, jet job.
I'm amazed that Australian pilots have been as quiet as they have about the Yarpies heading over to work for QF Link and Jetstar. It's a very slippery slope and will have serious repercussions for years to come.
Last edited by Kenny; 22nd Apr 2008 at 18:24. Reason: sepelling
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$32432.00 per year GROSS - No Loss of license, No Superannuation,No Communication Allowance, No lotsa things....
But in SA you will never pay $450 per week for renting a 1 Bedroom apartment (not even in Sandton).
Watch out for the "Cost of Living" factor..
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Look guys don't get me wrong -
If only the guys here in SA could stand together like you guys do against companies that pay sh!t. I really admire that.
But for us yarpies there are other factors to consider when looking at our problems at home. I really wish it was as "simple" as just staying away from companies that pay crap.
The South Africans that I think you Aussies are more familiar with are the guys that left as soon as they heard that there was going to be a new South Africa.....1994 - 1997. I think these individuals just didn't want to accept the change and the possibility of a brighter future for all South Africans.
However, the majority of people that are leaving now do so for their safety and their children's future.
I think there seems to be a bit of a misconception about what a South African is today in South Afrca.
The truth is - I don't want to leave South Africa. I live in Cape Town and fly a Boeing 737-200. Not the latest technology I might ad, but I'm very happy doing it for a living. Cost of living in Cape Town isn't far off from that in certain places in Australia.
What I'm getting to here is - If Australian Companies are going to come here to look for pilots, they are going to find them.
There will always just be one home for all of us, doesn't matter where you're from, but put anyone in our position and then we talk!
And that's the truth Bru!
If only the guys here in SA could stand together like you guys do against companies that pay sh!t. I really admire that.
But for us yarpies there are other factors to consider when looking at our problems at home. I really wish it was as "simple" as just staying away from companies that pay crap.
The South Africans that I think you Aussies are more familiar with are the guys that left as soon as they heard that there was going to be a new South Africa.....1994 - 1997. I think these individuals just didn't want to accept the change and the possibility of a brighter future for all South Africans.
However, the majority of people that are leaving now do so for their safety and their children's future.
I think there seems to be a bit of a misconception about what a South African is today in South Afrca.
The truth is - I don't want to leave South Africa. I live in Cape Town and fly a Boeing 737-200. Not the latest technology I might ad, but I'm very happy doing it for a living. Cost of living in Cape Town isn't far off from that in certain places in Australia.
What I'm getting to here is - If Australian Companies are going to come here to look for pilots, they are going to find them.
There will always just be one home for all of us, doesn't matter where you're from, but put anyone in our position and then we talk!
And that's the truth Bru!
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Perspective
How about we put this in perspective for YOU, bru.
Lets say your employer starts a subsidiary airline, buys news planes and thinks up a wanky name. This new subsidiary offers pilots jobs on, say, $25k pa. You shake your head and say "who in their right mind would work for that money?"
Wanky air starts taking over the routes formerly flown by you in your 737-200. New pilots drift in, but Wanky air just cant get enough drivers on the money they offer. Serves them right, gloats you.
Next thing you hear, Wanky has obtained permission from the govt to offer a better life to pilots from, say, Bangladesh. These pilots are all well-qualified, having flown for BBC for years, and are just looking for a way out of the poverty and deprivation afforded them on the pittance they earn at home. Wanky cant get locals on their crap T&Cs, so there is a "shortage". Wanky's offer is a princely sum, thinks the new arrivals. And their families will enjoy a much higher standard of living in SA on $25k than they were used to.
How would you feel about that, tru? Would your govt be up for that? Instead of asking aussies to put themselves in your position, why dont you put yourself in the position of australians, and have a think about that?
Lets say your employer starts a subsidiary airline, buys news planes and thinks up a wanky name. This new subsidiary offers pilots jobs on, say, $25k pa. You shake your head and say "who in their right mind would work for that money?"
Wanky air starts taking over the routes formerly flown by you in your 737-200. New pilots drift in, but Wanky air just cant get enough drivers on the money they offer. Serves them right, gloats you.
Next thing you hear, Wanky has obtained permission from the govt to offer a better life to pilots from, say, Bangladesh. These pilots are all well-qualified, having flown for BBC for years, and are just looking for a way out of the poverty and deprivation afforded them on the pittance they earn at home. Wanky cant get locals on their crap T&Cs, so there is a "shortage". Wanky's offer is a princely sum, thinks the new arrivals. And their families will enjoy a much higher standard of living in SA on $25k than they were used to.
How would you feel about that, tru? Would your govt be up for that? Instead of asking aussies to put themselves in your position, why dont you put yourself in the position of australians, and have a think about that?
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Reality check
Trubru wote:
Let go through this. Superannuation, of no monetary value until you are 60 or leave Aust permanently. LOL, no monetary value unless you get sick and lose your medical.
So, reality Base wage $51,100 taxable, $4,500 untaxed
Tax on $51,100 =~$10,700
In your hand $40,400 + $4,500 = $44,900
I find it hard to believe that you could get a rental property anywhere in SYD for less than $350pw, therefore $18,200 pa.
The next thing to realise, is that Aussies earning this type of money with a family don't actually pay any tax. The welfare system effectively rebates the tax. On top of that, they may be eligible for rental assistance to cover most or all of that $350 rent.
Therefore, an Aussie family income of $51,100 & rental assistance, probably nets in excess of $65,000, including government handouts. In Sydney $65K, is a subsistance existance for a family.
Further, Aussies have a medicare card, and pay a small co-payment ($5 I think) to visit the doctor, and hospital treatment is free. Basic medical insurance is around a $1200 per annum.
As a 457 holder, I don't believe you are entitled, to social security, rental assistance or a medicare card. Therefore if you have a wife and a dependant you will have around $26,000 per annum to spend on food, utilities, clothing, car & medical expenses. I believe this would be well below the poverty line for a family. Will your wife be entitled to work? She will need to. Childcare for the little one while she works, thats at least $80 per day per child, if you can get a place.
If you don't believe me, do your own research. Heres a link to Coles Supermarkets online, put in a postcode of 2000, Circular Quay and browse the shopping. Sausages, ~$4.70 Kg, most fruit is around ~$5.00kg.
Check out the rental situation realestate.com rentals in nsw.
Sure, come do your look see. Make sure you acutally go into a supermarket and do a shop for your family and see how far $500 pw goes.
I understand your predicement, however, please realise that you will be netting about 60% of a subsistance existance, locked into your visa sponsor company, paying tax, but without the social security benefits.
Q-link First Officer
x Base Wage $51,100
x Superannuation (9% of base wage) $4,500
x Loss of Licence Insurance $1,750
x Overnight Allowances ($100/night, say 40 nights p.a.) $4,000
x Communication Allowance (p.a.) $500
TOTAL monetary package $61,850
x Base Wage $51,100
x Superannuation (9% of base wage) $4,500
x Loss of Licence Insurance $1,750
x Overnight Allowances ($100/night, say 40 nights p.a.) $4,000
x Communication Allowance (p.a.) $500
TOTAL monetary package $61,850
So, reality Base wage $51,100 taxable, $4,500 untaxed
Tax on $51,100 =~$10,700
In your hand $40,400 + $4,500 = $44,900
I find it hard to believe that you could get a rental property anywhere in SYD for less than $350pw, therefore $18,200 pa.
The next thing to realise, is that Aussies earning this type of money with a family don't actually pay any tax. The welfare system effectively rebates the tax. On top of that, they may be eligible for rental assistance to cover most or all of that $350 rent.
Therefore, an Aussie family income of $51,100 & rental assistance, probably nets in excess of $65,000, including government handouts. In Sydney $65K, is a subsistance existance for a family.
Further, Aussies have a medicare card, and pay a small co-payment ($5 I think) to visit the doctor, and hospital treatment is free. Basic medical insurance is around a $1200 per annum.
As a 457 holder, I don't believe you are entitled, to social security, rental assistance or a medicare card. Therefore if you have a wife and a dependant you will have around $26,000 per annum to spend on food, utilities, clothing, car & medical expenses. I believe this would be well below the poverty line for a family. Will your wife be entitled to work? She will need to. Childcare for the little one while she works, thats at least $80 per day per child, if you can get a place.
If you don't believe me, do your own research. Heres a link to Coles Supermarkets online, put in a postcode of 2000, Circular Quay and browse the shopping. Sausages, ~$4.70 Kg, most fruit is around ~$5.00kg.
Check out the rental situation realestate.com rentals in nsw.
Sure, come do your look see. Make sure you acutally go into a supermarket and do a shop for your family and see how far $500 pw goes.
I understand your predicement, however, please realise that you will be netting about 60% of a subsistance existance, locked into your visa sponsor company, paying tax, but without the social security benefits.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Good points Breakfastburrito but remember that 90% of the arriving SA pilots will be aiming for PR and citizenship so provided that they can subsidise their salary for a few years they will eventually be laughing and in direct competition with all other Australians.
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remember that 90% of the arriving SA pilots will be aiming for PR and citizenship so provided that they can subsidise their salary for a few years they will eventually be laughing and in direct competition with all other Australians.
Can you understand why citizens have a problem with this? If there were no citizens that could do the job, fair enough, but there are. This is not about aviation, but about citizenship. At least we are close to the truth.
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Seeing as QFL still req passes in subjects that hardly make a diff to ones flying have these 'imports' got similar or are they looking at pilots who are already type endorsed & will overlook the finer details? I do believe there is a shortage of pilots here in OZ BUT only the types the airlines want.
CW
CW
AUSTRALIANS FOR AUSTRALIAN JOBS
TID Edit: You're stepping close to the line. Be careful, now.
"click click click"
TID Edit: You're stepping close to the line. Be careful, now.
"click click click"
Last edited by Tidbinbilla; 23rd Apr 2008 at 01:18. Reason: Inflammatory language
If you want to live in Oz then apply like the rest have to do.
Once you get to live here on fair terms THEN apply to whoever you like whenever you like.
Sounds fair and reasonable to me.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.
ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.
get in line.
Remember you can't hide your accent, WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
And don't bother saying "i didn't know" like the yanks did in 1989.
Once you get to live here on fair terms THEN apply to whoever you like whenever you like.
Sounds fair and reasonable to me.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.
ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.
get in line.
Remember you can't hide your accent, WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
And don't bother saying "i didn't know" like the yanks did in 1989.
To the AFAP:
I propose you place a ban on membership for these IMPORTS and seek the help from other Unions. ( if they'll talk to you )
Don't sit on your bums and let this happen AGAIN.
Come on Mr Cox.
I propose you place a ban on membership for these IMPORTS and seek the help from other Unions. ( if they'll talk to you )
Don't sit on your bums and let this happen AGAIN.
Come on Mr Cox.
What Shortage
I'm one of those displaced Aussies that would love to return home from overseas.
You start to feel that as a qualified pilot in Oz no one in the industry wants to touch you because they don't want to pay for the experience. If I had 200hrs there are a bunch of programs I can enroll in to get into these places. I fail to see the shortage but ACMS has got it right.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.
ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.
ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.
en chance. To the Saffa's. No one would be pi$$ed off if they gave aussie pilots a fair go and paid us a salary that was at least on par with a garbage collector. We are Pi$$ed off because companies will take you guys before us because you are willing to work for less under cutting our salaries and working conditions. Try demanding what you think is fair and see the response you get form the Qlink and Jetstar. Qantas group should no longer be the national carrier as it is only targetting foreign nationals.
All sing together now:-----
"THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.
ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS."
"THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.
ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS."
Hi guys/gals.
Let me play the devils advocate here for a moment.
Would it be a fair comment that when a group of people is trying to achieve a goal i.e better T and C's that if you are patient long enough a situation will arise that you can put to your advantage i.e a pilot shortage.
I suspect that this is about the first time since 89 that a real shortage of pilots (using the current T and C's, in other words enough pilots available but not at the going rates offered by management) has occurred.
So is this the best chance you've had to put some serious pressure on the gangulies of management.
If this is the case then is seems that the airlines have said stiff s..t we'll look elsewere.
Don't get me wrong i've go quite a few close friends in mainline positions and i would love to see them get better T and C's.
I guess the question i would ask is where do you go from here if this was the the best chance of getting what you wanted and given that you've held strong for so long.
Fly safe and play hard.
Regards to all.
Hoss 58
Let me play the devils advocate here for a moment.
Would it be a fair comment that when a group of people is trying to achieve a goal i.e better T and C's that if you are patient long enough a situation will arise that you can put to your advantage i.e a pilot shortage.
I suspect that this is about the first time since 89 that a real shortage of pilots (using the current T and C's, in other words enough pilots available but not at the going rates offered by management) has occurred.
So is this the best chance you've had to put some serious pressure on the gangulies of management.
If this is the case then is seems that the airlines have said stiff s..t we'll look elsewere.
Don't get me wrong i've go quite a few close friends in mainline positions and i would love to see them get better T and C's.
I guess the question i would ask is where do you go from here if this was the the best chance of getting what you wanted and given that you've held strong for so long.
Fly safe and play hard.
Regards to all.
Hoss 58
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Lets just get back to the facts here -
The 457 visa system is a bonafide working aggreement which has been endorsed by government from both sides. Non Australian persons enter this country every day and take up work under the scheme is a variety of industries.
Aviation should be no different. Employers will employ the persons that they want or need under this scheme as long as the criteria is met. That's the way it should be.
You chest thumping sooks can bleat all you like but when we have so many sections of industry screaming for qualified workers, no government is going to exclude a particular segment of the workforce just because a few pilots are sooking about it. If you are as good as you think you are, then you will have no worries getting good jobs here.
Let not forget that aussie pilots head overseas at the drop of a hat and take up flying roles in countries where lots of pilots also compete for employment . Why is that OK ,but we can't ever have any come back this way.
Like I said, if you are as hot as you all say you are, you should have your pick of the best jobs right here!
Reality ............ its not always easy to swallow for some of you!
The 457 visa system is a bonafide working aggreement which has been endorsed by government from both sides. Non Australian persons enter this country every day and take up work under the scheme is a variety of industries.
Aviation should be no different. Employers will employ the persons that they want or need under this scheme as long as the criteria is met. That's the way it should be.
You chest thumping sooks can bleat all you like but when we have so many sections of industry screaming for qualified workers, no government is going to exclude a particular segment of the workforce just because a few pilots are sooking about it. If you are as good as you think you are, then you will have no worries getting good jobs here.
Let not forget that aussie pilots head overseas at the drop of a hat and take up flying roles in countries where lots of pilots also compete for employment . Why is that OK ,but we can't ever have any come back this way.
Like I said, if you are as hot as you all say you are, you should have your pick of the best jobs right here!
Reality ............ its not always easy to swallow for some of you!
Victor victor victor..............
man you are a lovely person
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AVIATION, I can't speak for the mining industry.
You'll have to go to the PMRUNE ( proff miners rumour network ) to get their take on THEIR problems.
read the posts above goose. Specifically # 15 17 and 18
man you are a lovely person
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AVIATION, I can't speak for the mining industry.
You'll have to go to the PMRUNE ( proff miners rumour network ) to get their take on THEIR problems.
Let not forget that aussie pilots head overseas at the drop of a hat and take up flying roles in countries where lots of pilots also compete for employment . Why is that OK ,but we can't ever have any come back this way.