Say NO to 457 visas.
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Say NO to 457 visas.
In the mid 90's All Nippon attempted to base a group of foreigners (from lands of the usual suspects) in Australia.
A group of overseas pilots who had been blacklisted by Ansett/ TAA lobbied politicians and the practice was put to the sword. The base was closed.
The practice has re emerged since airline management from various carriers lobbied the Howard Govt to solve a pilot shortfall.
If you feel you have been disadvantaged by the selection process of an Australian carrier and they have subsequently employed a foreigner you should do the same.
Write to the Prime Minister, your local member or Senator. Do the same with the Opposition Ministers too!
You will be surprised that some of them will listen and maybe act on your behalf.
Talk to your pilot council, AIPA, VIPA etc and stop this practice.
You maybe JUST A PILOT,but use your rights as an Aussie to protect jobs that are rightfully yours!
A group of overseas pilots who had been blacklisted by Ansett/ TAA lobbied politicians and the practice was put to the sword. The base was closed.
The practice has re emerged since airline management from various carriers lobbied the Howard Govt to solve a pilot shortfall.
If you feel you have been disadvantaged by the selection process of an Australian carrier and they have subsequently employed a foreigner you should do the same.
Write to the Prime Minister, your local member or Senator. Do the same with the Opposition Ministers too!
You will be surprised that some of them will listen and maybe act on your behalf.
Talk to your pilot council, AIPA, VIPA etc and stop this practice.
You maybe JUST A PILOT,but use your rights as an Aussie to protect jobs that are rightfully yours!
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QA I was recently thinking that this issue has gone somewhat quiet lately. As with unpopular government action, this is what airline management hope for; that those with objections will eventually grow tired of raising them and the issue will simply be accepted.
This 457 issue represents the front line of a defacto pilots' dispute and needs to be demonstrated to the gov't to be unacceptable while there are still pilots in this country willing to work for acceptable conditions. To bring in foreign labour on anything less is unacceptable and should be shouted down by every pilot in the country and every foreign-based Australian pilot who thinks he might want to come home to work one day.
If you're in GA and think it doesn't affect you think again. Write to your MPs.
This 457 issue represents the front line of a defacto pilots' dispute and needs to be demonstrated to the gov't to be unacceptable while there are still pilots in this country willing to work for acceptable conditions. To bring in foreign labour on anything less is unacceptable and should be shouted down by every pilot in the country and every foreign-based Australian pilot who thinks he might want to come home to work one day.
If you're in GA and think it doesn't affect you think again. Write to your MPs.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Would it help, before you start jumping up and down, to ascertain if a requirement for the issue of a 457 visa is that there is no Australian equally or better qualified than the visa applicant available for the post?
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parabellum
I agree with your sentiments, but in the past airlines have argued that qualified means endorsed on type and with experience ie lots of hours on type. A bit difficult to acheive for a new type rating in OZ.
I suspect the LAMEs are even in a worse position over this, particualrly with the new licensing rules being floated.
Perhaps we all should submit comments for the recently announced white paper on aviation and include something constructive on the skills shortfall.
Wunwing
I agree with your sentiments, but in the past airlines have argued that qualified means endorsed on type and with experience ie lots of hours on type. A bit difficult to acheive for a new type rating in OZ.
I suspect the LAMEs are even in a worse position over this, particualrly with the new licensing rules being floated.
Perhaps we all should submit comments for the recently announced white paper on aviation and include something constructive on the skills shortfall.
Wunwing
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You may also want to check if a certain piece of legislation allowing overseas pilots to work in Australia virtually unrestricted (Hawked and introduced during a certain aviation incident some 19 years ago) is still valid.
To my knowledge it has never been rescinded (but I stand to be corrected) and could well be used to circumvent immigration procedures.
DK
To my knowledge it has never been rescinded (but I stand to be corrected) and could well be used to circumvent immigration procedures.
DK
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Since the new Govt took office they have toughened the 457 visa even more than the previous one did.
Before an employer is allowed to sponsor an employee under the 457 program they must first negotiate a Labour Agreement with the Department of Immigration and Citizenship. This Agreement sets out the parameters of how many 457s are to be engaged, what arrangements the employer is putting in place to reduce their reliance on 457s over the life of the Agreement in addition to ensuring that there are no unemployed Australians who could fill the role.
I have had enormous problems getting a Labour Agreement up in an area whre there is huge unemployment and the employer is gagging for staff.
Also there are requirements regarding english language fluency and, the kicker in this case, ALL stakeholders have to support the plan. This means that not only does the employer have to support it but any relevant union does as well. I would suggest that it is highly unlikely that any union would support such a scheme given the number of applicants for every commercial airline position.
So I don't think that this is a huge risk.
Before an employer is allowed to sponsor an employee under the 457 program they must first negotiate a Labour Agreement with the Department of Immigration and Citizenship. This Agreement sets out the parameters of how many 457s are to be engaged, what arrangements the employer is putting in place to reduce their reliance on 457s over the life of the Agreement in addition to ensuring that there are no unemployed Australians who could fill the role.
I have had enormous problems getting a Labour Agreement up in an area whre there is huge unemployment and the employer is gagging for staff.
Also there are requirements regarding english language fluency and, the kicker in this case, ALL stakeholders have to support the plan. This means that not only does the employer have to support it but any relevant union does as well. I would suggest that it is highly unlikely that any union would support such a scheme given the number of applicants for every commercial airline position.
So I don't think that this is a huge risk.
Sprucegoose
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but in the past airlines have argued that qualified means endorsed on type and with experience ie lots of hours on type.
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Think it's got more to do with the bigger picture of the open skies - level playing field mentality that most governments seem to have acquired.
The whole aviation landscape (pardon the pun) is under some delusion that anyone from anywhere can and should just turn up for the gig - the same goes for operator's certificates. - I'm tired of seeing dispensation after dispensation being granted especially to forgein AOC's and LCC's and then before we knew it all the airlines started using the regulatory environment as a vehcile for cost cutting. (if you need an example look at the stupidity of the Mutual recognition Bill) and of course the nonsensical 'blue sky' (sorry.. those puns again) ideas about 'open deregulated' skies for the Asia-Pacific that came out of APEC.
If we do have not the skills and talent for a particular role then give a suitable applicant the Visa - bit if issueing Visas is just another way of cutting costs then its a myopic, very short term view (and I imagine Centrelink does not have too many suggestions for out of work Capts & F/O's.....)
Alternatively, maybe apply the same principle to pollies and political parties...I wonder how many Labor/Lib local branches would be happy with putting up a few imports.
The whole aviation landscape (pardon the pun) is under some delusion that anyone from anywhere can and should just turn up for the gig - the same goes for operator's certificates. - I'm tired of seeing dispensation after dispensation being granted especially to forgein AOC's and LCC's and then before we knew it all the airlines started using the regulatory environment as a vehcile for cost cutting. (if you need an example look at the stupidity of the Mutual recognition Bill) and of course the nonsensical 'blue sky' (sorry.. those puns again) ideas about 'open deregulated' skies for the Asia-Pacific that came out of APEC.
If we do have not the skills and talent for a particular role then give a suitable applicant the Visa - bit if issueing Visas is just another way of cutting costs then its a myopic, very short term view (and I imagine Centrelink does not have too many suggestions for out of work Capts & F/O's.....)
Alternatively, maybe apply the same principle to pollies and political parties...I wonder how many Labor/Lib local branches would be happy with putting up a few imports.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Dark Night I'm pretty sure that loophole has been closed now. Pilots were taken off the list of occupations that had a shortfall of qualified people, (introduced in 1989).
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Its funny how you guys refer to " Australian pilots wanting to return home"
Could one assume they left Australia for better working conditions or perhaps a better package. So I take it this is acceptable. So if an adequately qualified foreigner , legally has the right to have better conditions than what he presently has in his home country desires to live in Australia , this is now unacceptable. Double standards here gents.
Could one assume they left Australia for better working conditions or perhaps a better package. So I take it this is acceptable. So if an adequately qualified foreigner , legally has the right to have better conditions than what he presently has in his home country desires to live in Australia , this is now unacceptable. Double standards here gents.
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Its funny how you guys refer to " Australian pilots wanting to return home"
Could one assume they left Australia for better working conditions or perhaps a better package. So I take it this is acceptable. So if an adequately qualified foreigner , legally has the right to have better conditions than what he presently has in his home country desires to live in Australia , this is now unacceptable. Double standards here gents.
Could one assume they left Australia for better working conditions or perhaps a better package. So I take it this is acceptable. So if an adequately qualified foreigner , legally has the right to have better conditions than what he presently has in his home country desires to live in Australia , this is now unacceptable. Double standards here gents.
However, who's to say those that argue against importing pilots under the smokescreen of a so-called/engineered/convenient "shortage" did support pilots leaving Oz ... and did those pilots take up positions to the clear detriment of locals in the countries to which they headed, or were the circumstances entirely different? Did those pilots prevent locals who'd shelled out AU$50,000 - AU$100,000 from getting the employment that would justify their debts?
Apart from assisting potential victims of economic downturn in certain countries, all that importing pilots would do is add another fraction of a cent to shareholder value of certain companies ... but of course, that's what counts these days, isn't it?
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All i'l say is there are countless numbers of Australian pilots working in the uk alone and like there are in Aus there are countless numbers of British pilots without a job and this is part of the reason why. To say its unacceptable for Australia to let foreign pilots work there...seems like a complete double standard to me. Just my humble opinion though
utter cock
Aussies are ONLY WORKING OS BECAUSE LOCALS CANNOT DO THE JOB.
I cannot just walkin and get a job in England or the US, why? because they DON'T NEED me.
I can walk into India or other parts of Australasia, why? because they NEED me.
DEMAND EXCEEDS SUPPLY. ( of locally trained crew )
let me say that again for those hard or hearing
DEMAND EXCEEDS SUPPLY.
Simple
This is NOT the case in Australia.
Any Aussie working in England or the US probably had the required Visa before he went ( family connections or born there )
What I'm objecting to is giving 457 Visa's to Pilots so they can come to Australia and work under a perceived shortage.
Anyone who already has the right to work in Australia is very welcome, I don't care where they're from.
So lets stop the utter rubbish said above right here and right now.
In my case if CX managed to find enough locals that could fly ALL EXPATS would be out the door quicker than you could say "wai"
And that's the same with SQ, KE, EK, etc etc etc.
Aussies are ONLY WORKING OS BECAUSE LOCALS CANNOT DO THE JOB.
I cannot just walkin and get a job in England or the US, why? because they DON'T NEED me.
I can walk into India or other parts of Australasia, why? because they NEED me.
DEMAND EXCEEDS SUPPLY. ( of locally trained crew )
let me say that again for those hard or hearing
DEMAND EXCEEDS SUPPLY.
Simple
This is NOT the case in Australia.
Any Aussie working in England or the US probably had the required Visa before he went ( family connections or born there )
What I'm objecting to is giving 457 Visa's to Pilots so they can come to Australia and work under a perceived shortage.
Anyone who already has the right to work in Australia is very welcome, I don't care where they're from.
So lets stop the utter rubbish said above right here and right now.
In my case if CX managed to find enough locals that could fly ALL EXPATS would be out the door quicker than you could say "wai"
And that's the same with SQ, KE, EK, etc etc etc.
Last edited by ACMS; 22nd Apr 2008 at 11:32.
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Q-link 457 Visa Work
QLink will be in Johannesburg South Africa from the 29th April to the 4th of March doing initial screening interviews through KORR.
I think our SAFA boys & girls will be standing QUEUE for this.
If Q-link didn't have a crewing problem why are they in South Africa?
I think our SAFA boys & girls will be standing QUEUE for this.
If Q-link didn't have a crewing problem why are they in South Africa?
QFlink don't pay enough money for the young boys and girls to BOTHER applying for jobs. They'd rather push trollys for the same money at Coles and not have to fork out $80,000 to get there.
QFlink are in SA trying to find Pilot's silly enough to work for nothing.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.
ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.
Capish?
QFlink are in SA trying to find Pilot's silly enough to work for nothing.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.
ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.
Capish?
In addition to my above posts I would like to add:
That's exactly what occured in Malaysia. 200 Aussies went there after the '89 dispute and filled a need by MH. 4 years later they had ALL LEFT after they were no longer needed.
That's exactly what occured in Malaysia. 200 Aussies went there after the '89 dispute and filled a need by MH. 4 years later they had ALL LEFT after they were no longer needed.
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What I'm objecting to is giving 457 Visa's to Pilots so they can come to Australia and work under a perceived shortage.
QFlink don't pay enough money for the young boys and girls to BOTHER applying for jobs.
Consider this:
QantasLink is willing to pay expenses to the value of 25 100 AuD for any 457 Candidate willing to stay for a period exceeding 12 Months.
These expenses are supposed to cover Furniture Removal, Packing and Storage, Medical Insurance for Non-Australian Residents as well as 1 weeks accommodation for candidate and partner during a Look-and-See tour to Australia.
Also considering that QantasLink are not only looking for 1 or 2 457 Candidates, surely if it was only a AuD issue, they would have considered this first and foremost - Especially considering the difficulty of the 457 Visa Application and Justification Process.
Is it not rather the case that some Australians, having worked overseas for a while (and earning top $), are really wanting to come back to Australia but at the same time are expecting/demanding their US$ T&C's to be matched by any Australian Employer which they might choose?
Remember that those US$ T&C's were structured in a lucrative way for a reason: To add as justification for any individual to be willing/able to stomach the life in "Smoke City" (Hong Kong) or even the Sandpit...
Why then not start a new thread to measure/determine what Australian Pilots think they are worth...Something to the line of:
First Officer
(AuD per annum)
REX = 75 000
QantasLink = 100 000
Jetstar = 130 000
Captain
(AuD per annum)
REX = 120 000
QantasLink = 175 000
Jetstar = 210 000
