Merged: Jetstar EBA 4
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further to flyingins,
I would say that Led and Genex are not Jetstar pilots at all.
Genex is management with J* or he is with Oldmeadow consulting.
Led is OS and is eyeing off a DEC with J* but has to wait until his super is maximised before he leaves EK. Or maybe is a DEC with J* now, either way unrepresentative of the J* pilot.
The mates I have in Jetstar think along the same lines as flyingins, as long as no one gets screwed then why not have unity and a GOAL?
The GOAL would be prefect for someone like ASG, he may not get a choice where he starts, but after a few years he will have choices that we never dreamed of.
I would say that Led and Genex are not Jetstar pilots at all.
Genex is management with J* or he is with Oldmeadow consulting.
Led is OS and is eyeing off a DEC with J* but has to wait until his super is maximised before he leaves EK. Or maybe is a DEC with J* now, either way unrepresentative of the J* pilot.
The mates I have in Jetstar think along the same lines as flyingins, as long as no one gets screwed then why not have unity and a GOAL?
The GOAL would be prefect for someone like ASG, he may not get a choice where he starts, but after a few years he will have choices that we never dreamed of.
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Oh dear Speedy......
Let me remind you these forums are about argument and debate, not about personalities. If you want to PM me I will let you know exactly who I work for. and its not who you think.
And as for the GOAL stuff.....someone does get screwed along the way.....only its not you and me and not right now....its all the jobs that might have been. And thats the sad bit.....some of you, in the midst of your hatred for Jetstar and those with opposing views.....or even contributing views....can't see that some people have different ideas. Me....being older, yet having had the best of the industry at home and mostly overseas.....I think that growth and commands at reasonable salaries is worth offering to most folks. Dull, staid but reliable slow growth on old aircraft is OK for others. I just don't see why B744 drivers could possibly morally justify the demise of an entire airline and hundreds of current and future jobs just to protect the near future for themselves.
But as dear Kremin (is that Latin for criminal?) says....maybe that's all drivel (he said dribble about my posts but I think he's faking an inability at English and meant drivel. Aren't all Sky Gods well educated?).
Let me remind you these forums are about argument and debate, not about personalities. If you want to PM me I will let you know exactly who I work for. and its not who you think.
And as for the GOAL stuff.....someone does get screwed along the way.....only its not you and me and not right now....its all the jobs that might have been. And thats the sad bit.....some of you, in the midst of your hatred for Jetstar and those with opposing views.....or even contributing views....can't see that some people have different ideas. Me....being older, yet having had the best of the industry at home and mostly overseas.....I think that growth and commands at reasonable salaries is worth offering to most folks. Dull, staid but reliable slow growth on old aircraft is OK for others. I just don't see why B744 drivers could possibly morally justify the demise of an entire airline and hundreds of current and future jobs just to protect the near future for themselves.
But as dear Kremin (is that Latin for criminal?) says....maybe that's all drivel (he said dribble about my posts but I think he's faking an inability at English and meant drivel. Aren't all Sky Gods well educated?).
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Genex,
The thing is that senior pilots who fly the B744 are probably the least affected by any of this. By the time it has any effect on them they’d either be long gone or senior enough that they’d be above the mess you’re helping to create by inciting division. That you think these guys spend their days trying to plot the downfall of Jet* is laughable. That you think they would be in any position to actually achieve this is beyond belief. Despite the line you keep pushing Qantas isn’t full of staid old ‘Sky Gods’ sitting there lording over all from a B744. Most blokes there are like any other group of pilots who want to continue their chosen profession, live a reasonable lifestyle and get fair remuneration for it. The stereotype you keep trying to perpetuate is just not correct.
For someone who claims to have enjoyed the best years of aviation you seem to be spending a lot of effort dismantling the very terms and conditions that enabled this and appear to be going out of your way to deny that future to others. It really doesn’t add up?
Nuf.
Ps: Gotta run. I'm late for golf as I lost track of time in my wine cellar deciding what boat I'm going to buy that will look better than my kids North Shore schoolfriends parent's...................NOT!
The thing is that senior pilots who fly the B744 are probably the least affected by any of this. By the time it has any effect on them they’d either be long gone or senior enough that they’d be above the mess you’re helping to create by inciting division. That you think these guys spend their days trying to plot the downfall of Jet* is laughable. That you think they would be in any position to actually achieve this is beyond belief. Despite the line you keep pushing Qantas isn’t full of staid old ‘Sky Gods’ sitting there lording over all from a B744. Most blokes there are like any other group of pilots who want to continue their chosen profession, live a reasonable lifestyle and get fair remuneration for it. The stereotype you keep trying to perpetuate is just not correct.
For someone who claims to have enjoyed the best years of aviation you seem to be spending a lot of effort dismantling the very terms and conditions that enabled this and appear to be going out of your way to deny that future to others. It really doesn’t add up?
Nuf.
Ps: Gotta run. I'm late for golf as I lost track of time in my wine cellar deciding what boat I'm going to buy that will look better than my kids North Shore schoolfriends parent's...................NOT!
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its all the jobs that might have been.
AIPA is on record saying that they accept that an LCC has to have different T & C's, so it won't be pushing for the LH award.
What a GOAL gives is everyone access to good T&C's eventually. In other words... CHOICE... Start in Qlink, Jetstar or an S/O in Qf and from there choose fast promotion with less pay (LCC or QLink) and later gain the T&C's in mainline (if you want).
A GOAL is good for everybody, you and I have no idea what the aviation world will look like in 15 years time, if Jetstar continues to grow at rates like this and QF is stagnant, then it is good for our younger pilots in QF, because eventually they'll get a look in (won't make much difference to me).
What if the LCC model starts to falter, or at least contracts a bit, and mainline expands? Again the Jetstar guys get to share in the spoils.
Why do I have to PM you to find out who you work for? I know already, it is obvious you are management, not because you oppose my view (so does Led, fistfokker and heaps of others) its because the tone of your posts show you encourage the divisions that exist now, and want them to stay.
Only management would be happy with this division, no line pilot, no matter whether pro or anti-AIPA, pro or anti-GOAL would encourage such division.
AIPA simply were not interested in the regionals until the creation fo J* and since then they have been your new best friends.Management did not make that division Speeedy your mates on the CoM did and now they seem to be suffering from amnesia.You see Speeedy the regionals have nothing that you want or need,this unity line from AIPA is a facade to get control of all Qantas group pilots to shore up their own flagging fortunes.Remember it was Westwood who broke the unity back in early 80's and that is the way it has been since because that is the way AIPA wants it.The goal is another distraction that has been put out there to project an image altruism,fact is AIPA has no idea of how they are going to convince GD to accept it and until that approval it is nothing more than an if,but or maybe.
P.S.With the previous quote,Woods does not contest the sentiment of what Duggan said only the words he used.
P.S.With the previous quote,Woods does not contest the sentiment of what Duggan said only the words he used.
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Thanks Keg and others for the clarity of explanation re GOAL as you guys see it.
Thanks for the personal concern as to my employment status - rest assured I am in Jetstar.
I will also tell you that a number of the JQ pilot group ARE suspicious of AIPA motives and believe that AIPA still regards JQ pilots as second class citizens. It seems pretty clear to a lot of us that the AIPA actions as described in the AIRC did occur (emails, attempt to delay ETOPS approval, etc) and that these actions were done in the interests of the AIAP mainline pilots only and stuff the JQ pilots. You are seen as bullies waving a big stick over the aviation community.
Gaining someone's trust is relatively easy. Break that trust and it takes 10 times as long to regain it. This is the way a lot of us feel and why some see the AFAP as a better (but not necessarily preferred longer term) option in the current climate.
For the above reasons, this EBA 4 may be appealing to a big percentage. I guess we'll know the result of that later today.
Regarding the future, my personal view is we should start our own JQ association, but there are so many different views on this that makes it difficult to know if it's realistically achievable.
It would be in AIPA COM's interest to take a much more conciliatory and "softly softly" approach if you wish to seriously get back the trust of JQ pilots. You need MUCH clearer and complete explanations as to ALL of the implications involved. As much as the GOAL explanation was detailed earlier in this forum, this now has to come from AIPA at an official COM level.
AIPA also needs to explain what it intends to do if GOAL doesn't get up. This is perhaps the more interesting and significant industrial question if Jetstar LH expansion occurs over existing mainline routes. Just how "friendly" will AIPA be to us in that situation ??
Thanks for the personal concern as to my employment status - rest assured I am in Jetstar.
I will also tell you that a number of the JQ pilot group ARE suspicious of AIPA motives and believe that AIPA still regards JQ pilots as second class citizens. It seems pretty clear to a lot of us that the AIPA actions as described in the AIRC did occur (emails, attempt to delay ETOPS approval, etc) and that these actions were done in the interests of the AIAP mainline pilots only and stuff the JQ pilots. You are seen as bullies waving a big stick over the aviation community.
Gaining someone's trust is relatively easy. Break that trust and it takes 10 times as long to regain it. This is the way a lot of us feel and why some see the AFAP as a better (but not necessarily preferred longer term) option in the current climate.
For the above reasons, this EBA 4 may be appealing to a big percentage. I guess we'll know the result of that later today.
Regarding the future, my personal view is we should start our own JQ association, but there are so many different views on this that makes it difficult to know if it's realistically achievable.
It would be in AIPA COM's interest to take a much more conciliatory and "softly softly" approach if you wish to seriously get back the trust of JQ pilots. You need MUCH clearer and complete explanations as to ALL of the implications involved. As much as the GOAL explanation was detailed earlier in this forum, this now has to come from AIPA at an official COM level.
AIPA also needs to explain what it intends to do if GOAL doesn't get up. This is perhaps the more interesting and significant industrial question if Jetstar LH expansion occurs over existing mainline routes. Just how "friendly" will AIPA be to us in that situation ??
Grandpa Aerotart
So there must be someone who heard Woods' express views on EBA4/JPC several times recently...allegedly
Why the reticence to post them here?
For those who struggle with the psycology behind all this AIPA/J*/Qlink carryon I can only point you in the direction of many studies carried out on human nature going back to the 60s...at least one of which is on youtube from memory...I'll see if I can hunt it out and post a link.
Basically it revolves around any situation where you get an 'A' team and a 'B' team. The first experiments used uni students in the US and was set up to simulate a prison over an extended time frame. Weeks or months I cannot remember.
The experiment had to be stopped in the end because of the behaviour of those students who were put on the 'A' team (prison guards).
Think Abu Graib.
The same professor who carried out that experiment in the 60s is still studying the phenomenon and did a less extreme version in the UK.
Take 10 people and put them all together in a house and give them various tasks to carry out.
After several days pick 5 at random and designate them the 'A' team and the remainders designate the 'B' team, assign tasks then sit back and watch.
The change that comes over perfectly reasonable people is astounding...and quite frightening.
This is exactly what we have here with QF mainline designated the 'A' team and everyone else in the QF group is the 'B' team.
The exact same thing is tearing CX apart where you literally have 'A' scalers, 'B' scalers, 'C' scalers and freighter guys on probably an F scale.
I see subtle evidence of something similar happening where I work.
Human nature being what it is I would suggest it is an almost insurmountable.
Do management know this?
Almost certainly. That would be why, in my view, J* management want J* pilots united under a common EBA and they DO NOT want AIPA involved in any way shape or form...AFAP doesn't carry the same baggage.
Why the reticence to post them here?
For those who struggle with the psycology behind all this AIPA/J*/Qlink carryon I can only point you in the direction of many studies carried out on human nature going back to the 60s...at least one of which is on youtube from memory...I'll see if I can hunt it out and post a link.
Basically it revolves around any situation where you get an 'A' team and a 'B' team. The first experiments used uni students in the US and was set up to simulate a prison over an extended time frame. Weeks or months I cannot remember.
The experiment had to be stopped in the end because of the behaviour of those students who were put on the 'A' team (prison guards).
Think Abu Graib.
The same professor who carried out that experiment in the 60s is still studying the phenomenon and did a less extreme version in the UK.
Take 10 people and put them all together in a house and give them various tasks to carry out.
After several days pick 5 at random and designate them the 'A' team and the remainders designate the 'B' team, assign tasks then sit back and watch.
The change that comes over perfectly reasonable people is astounding...and quite frightening.
This is exactly what we have here with QF mainline designated the 'A' team and everyone else in the QF group is the 'B' team.
The exact same thing is tearing CX apart where you literally have 'A' scalers, 'B' scalers, 'C' scalers and freighter guys on probably an F scale.
I see subtle evidence of something similar happening where I work.
Human nature being what it is I would suggest it is an almost insurmountable.
Do management know this?
Almost certainly. That would be why, in my view, J* management want J* pilots united under a common EBA and they DO NOT want AIPA involved in any way shape or form...AFAP doesn't carry the same baggage.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 4th Mar 2008 at 00:21.
This is perhaps the more interesting and significant industrial question if Jetstar LH expansion occurs over existing mainline routes. Just how "friendly" will AIPA be to us in that situation ??
Time will tell I guess.
ruprecht.
Grandpa Aerotart
Here is part 1 of the Stanford Prison experiment in the 60s. Remember that these are merely volunteer students who have been divided into A team (guards) and B team (prisoners) and then the results were recorded without intervention...until it got too serious and it had to be halted.
This is an extreme example but it is instructive non the less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o0Nx31yicY
Edited to fix link.
This is an extreme example but it is instructive non the less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o0Nx31yicY
Edited to fix link.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 4th Mar 2008 at 01:13.
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CC,
I would counter that you have shown clearly the exact reason why management WANT Qantas Group pilots’ represented by different associations. It works totally to managements favour to have us in different teams hating each other. That’s what AIPA and a GOAL is trying to undo. I agree with Led’s sentiments here (I’m surprised......especially as he STILL won’t answer my polite and quite reasonable question) that it does take 10 times as long to regain broken trust. Again this works in managements' favour to the extent that it can use this prejudice to steer people in the direction they want, and away from something that is actually going to be beneficial to them.
Nuf.
I would counter that you have shown clearly the exact reason why management WANT Qantas Group pilots’ represented by different associations. It works totally to managements favour to have us in different teams hating each other. That’s what AIPA and a GOAL is trying to undo. I agree with Led’s sentiments here (I’m surprised......especially as he STILL won’t answer my polite and quite reasonable question) that it does take 10 times as long to regain broken trust. Again this works in managements' favour to the extent that it can use this prejudice to steer people in the direction they want, and away from something that is actually going to be beneficial to them.
Nuf.
Grandpa Aerotart
You make a valid point....I think GD is capable of that, I don't accept JG is.
The main point remains. Mainline will always be the 'A' team and human nature near guarantees they will behave that way. Of course nothing like the extreme example shown above but if you look at the complaints virtually everyone not in mainline has against AIPA/a % mainline pilots (the skygod label does have some basis in fact even if overstated) you see this facet of human nature on display.
If you're QF mainline you're by default on the 'A' team...everyone else wasn't good enough to pass selection. This theme is a revolving door on Pprune.
It is simply human nature.
The end GAOL might rightly be viewed as attractive by the 'A' team, because deep down inside they believe they will benefit most - they are after all the 'A' team, but I am going to suggest human nature, let alone management resistance, indicates it could also be viewed as naive.
The main point remains. Mainline will always be the 'A' team and human nature near guarantees they will behave that way. Of course nothing like the extreme example shown above but if you look at the complaints virtually everyone not in mainline has against AIPA/a % mainline pilots (the skygod label does have some basis in fact even if overstated) you see this facet of human nature on display.
If you're QF mainline you're by default on the 'A' team...everyone else wasn't good enough to pass selection. This theme is a revolving door on Pprune.
It is simply human nature.
The end GAOL might rightly be viewed as attractive by the 'A' team, because deep down inside they believe they will benefit most - they are after all the 'A' team, but I am going to suggest human nature, let alone management resistance, indicates it could also be viewed as naive.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 4th Mar 2008 at 07:01.
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CC,
I am in mainline but I definitely don’t think that way in terms of the selection process. That process has nothing to do with the quality of pilot or person you are. It should also be stated that it’s not the average mainline pilot that has anything to do with the conduct or content of the process but rather the same sort of Professor that runs your aforementioned experiment.
I really don’t think the current AIPA heads are conforming to this ‘Team A’ mentality you speak of. (The previous regime?....more like it but I actually don’t think they thought there was ANYONE outside of ‘Team A’!) You need to be careful that if the situation has changed that you don’t continue to think as a downtrodden member of ‘Team B’ to your own detriment.
It’s been said before,
“As long as no one gets screwed then why not have unity and a GOAL?”
No one has yet argued anything that convinces me that anyone will get screwed here. (Except if you’re outside the Qantas Group and trying to get a quick DEC slot above ALL current QF Group employees.)
Nuf
I am in mainline but I definitely don’t think that way in terms of the selection process. That process has nothing to do with the quality of pilot or person you are. It should also be stated that it’s not the average mainline pilot that has anything to do with the conduct or content of the process but rather the same sort of Professor that runs your aforementioned experiment.
I really don’t think the current AIPA heads are conforming to this ‘Team A’ mentality you speak of. (The previous regime?....more like it but I actually don’t think they thought there was ANYONE outside of ‘Team A’!) You need to be careful that if the situation has changed that you don’t continue to think as a downtrodden member of ‘Team B’ to your own detriment.
It’s been said before,
“As long as no one gets screwed then why not have unity and a GOAL?”
No one has yet argued anything that convinces me that anyone will get screwed here. (Except if you’re outside the Qantas Group and trying to get a quick DEC slot above ALL current QF Group employees.)
Nuf
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Since no-one in the Qantas Group has any 777 time and the 787 is a common type rating wouldn't it make sense for Jetstar to get at least a handful of DEC 777 drivers to ensure the 787 introduction goes well? They can also no doubt train those mainline pilots lucky enough to get a slot on the 787 in a few years when the 787-9s come to Jetstar and the 787-8s start flying domestic routes.
I imagine there are other skills that such a few such 777 DECswould bring into Jetstar that would be an asset to the group as a whole. Things like ultra-long-range operations, extreme winter operations, routine cat 3b, 207 minutes ETOPS, polar operations etc.
Anyway, I presume from the deafening silence that everyone is happy with the EBA vote result and now you can all get on with flying.
I imagine there are other skills that such a few such 777 DECswould bring into Jetstar that would be an asset to the group as a whole. Things like ultra-long-range operations, extreme winter operations, routine cat 3b, 207 minutes ETOPS, polar operations etc.
Anyway, I presume from the deafening silence that everyone is happy with the EBA vote result and now you can all get on with flying.
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Since no-one in the Qantas Group has any 777 time and the 787 is a common type rating wouldn't it make sense for Jetstar to get at least a handful of DEC 777 drivers to ensure the 787 introduction goes well? They can also no doubt train those mainline pilots lucky enough to get a slot on the 787 in a few years when the 787-9s come to Jetstar and the 787-8s start flying domestic routes.
I imagine there are other skills that such a few such 777 DECswould bring into Jetstar that would be an asset to the group as a whole. Things like ultra-long-range operations, extreme winter operations, routine cat 3b, 207 minutes ETOPS, polar operations etc.
I imagine there are other skills that such a few such 777 DECswould bring into Jetstar that would be an asset to the group as a whole. Things like ultra-long-range operations, extreme winter operations, routine cat 3b, 207 minutes ETOPS, polar operations etc.
Someone like you, for instance, Sherm
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The silence is deafening. Almost 3 hours have passed since the Evote closed. This is strange. What the hell is going on? It cant be that hard to post that it's gone down again!
Last edited by Rostov; 4th Mar 2008 at 02:56.
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787 Presentation
The following link is a presentation by Boeing on the 787
http://www.acay.com.au/~willt/tempbo...7flightops.pdf
No drooling guys!
Differences’ training courses on third last page:
Days for conversion to 787 from;
B777 - 5 days
B757/767 - 8 DAYS
B737 - 11 DAYS.
Sherm,
Airlines introduce new aircraft all the time. Most of the skills you mention certainly aren’t specific to the 787 or 777 but are bought across from flying any jet, Boeing or Airbus. The couple of days shorter course that a 777 pilot may have over any other is hardly significant, that is unless you’re a 777 pilot trying to get a DEC over the top of existing Qantas Group pilots.
Nuf.
http://www.acay.com.au/~willt/tempbo...7flightops.pdf
No drooling guys!
Differences’ training courses on third last page:
Days for conversion to 787 from;
B777 - 5 days
B757/767 - 8 DAYS
B737 - 11 DAYS.
Sherm,
Airlines introduce new aircraft all the time. Most of the skills you mention certainly aren’t specific to the 787 or 777 but are bought across from flying any jet, Boeing or Airbus. The couple of days shorter course that a 777 pilot may have over any other is hardly significant, that is unless you’re a 777 pilot trying to get a DEC over the top of existing Qantas Group pilots.
Nuf.