Latest Qf Incident,where Will All This End

[teresa green]

The Australian 10/01/08. Mr. John Borghetti angrily reacts to suggestions that QF are putting safety before profit. Well bu@#er me! How could I have got it so wrong? Lets see now: lets start with the cabin crew. No longer a job for life with promotion, no, we will give you a two year contract, no incentives, and don't lets forget the import of overseas C/C who are well intentioned, but whose english could let them down under severe stress, why should they give a tinkers curse, about the company, and cetainly no loyalty, = unhappy cabin crew = unnessary stress = safety factors. Then lets go onto the Engineers. Without a doubt one of the best aviation engineering groups that ever existed. Any airline would jump at the chance to employ a Qantas trained engineer. The current boards answer: to divide and conquer. Put off QF trained apprentices, outsource work to other companies, pension off some of the best engineering brains in the company (quickly snatched up by other airlines) and the blokes and girls they have managed to hang onto, not pay them what they are worth. Arthur Baird would hang his head in disgust. Onto to drivers: why might you ask for the first time in the companys history, are the pilots leaving? Never been heard of before. Their training appears up to scratch, perhaps its morale that is getting them down. Sure the money is better o'seas in some places, but those with kids and parents getting on, don't really want to leave these shores (as us poor bu$#ers in 89 had to) you only have to read the posts on prune and q to know they are very concerned about safety and the future. QFs luck cannot hold out forever, some how pressure has to applied, to get this board to lift its act, or I am very fearful for the future

[NSEU]

"By the way the APU can't supply electrical power in flight. "

Actually, some 744's can. There was a modification made to the BCU's which allowed APU generators to come online if ALL 4 engine generators went offline. However, I haven't been able to find out if QF has this type. However, the APU wasn't already running... so it wouldn't have helped anyway. The APU gens probably wouldn't have come online anyway with the BCU's underwater.

Rgds.
NSEU

[sydney s/h]

Word has it that they had another incident up in SFO.... flaps not retracting and did a high speed landing into SFO as the flight came down from YVR.

And apparently a baggage loader caught alight when they were loading the thing with a fuel truck connected!

[Short_Circuit]

sydney s/h it wasn't OJH by chance?

[ACMS]

JABAWOCKEY: I say again.......how does a handheld GPS unit of any description provide the flight crew with real time up to the second ATTITUDE information????????????????

ie Roll and Pitch.

IT DOESN'T...........

I challenge anyone to try and fly straight and level in cloud using just a handheld GPS unit.

They don't have a GYRO of ANY TYPE fitted.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful for other information, it's just that DICK said he could get ATTITUDE info from it..............WRONG

[life_sentence_as_AME]

my handheld garmin does tell me if it is being held level or not when looking at the electric compass

[soldier of fortune]

-life sentence as an ame-

nice name i know were your comming from -things are grim but keep your chin up -you will be trained-

[ACMS]

There is a LONG LONG way between using it on the ground in a quite unmoving enviroment to using it in a bucking Aircraft at night in cloud.

I suggest you take it for a spin in an aircraft into cloud and see how you go.

A HANDHELD GPS, OF ANY TYPE, IS NOT DESIGNED TO GIVE ATTITUDE INFORMATION to enable the pilot to fly in cloud.

With all due respect my friend I suggest you stick to fixing the aircraft and we will fly em......ok?

[life_sentence_as_AME]

but if i get trained i will have to change my prune name... i just cant win

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Here's one for thought. how would you like to be flying over the South Pole in the middle of the night and have this happen.

Well this same aircraft (VH-OJM) was the very same aircraft that did the new years eve antarctic charter only 8 days prior to this latest QF2 Bangkok incident!!!

Low visual awareness, standby compass with low accuracy (because of location) and 4 -5 hours flight to nearest airport.

Now that would really be testing the capability of the aircraft and it's crew.

[NSEU]

Maybe his GPS comes with a spirit level?

ok ok.. let's give the poor lad a break. Don't be too hard on him... A few years ago, an experienced 747-400 crew took off thinking that their GPS's would re-align their IRU's for them in flight (they tried a quick alignment at the threshold for a heading discrepancy, but pushed the TOGA switches before the IRU's had resumed normal ops).

Rgds
NSEU

[ACMS]

Yeah I mean if a non-pilot says this then I can forgive him.

But the great DICK himself said it.......................tut tut.

then again maybe ol Dick has the new wiz bang handheld GPS that comes with it's own Laser gyro installed

[kalavo]

There's a number of people attacking Dick regarding his comments, go back and have a reread, because it seems you don't remember from one sentence to the next. He said that he has a secondary attitude indicator that has a battery backup and that he carries a Garmin 296.

Now there are a number of different secondary attitude indicators, but there's certainly self contained attitude indicators with internal backup battery that continue running when "the ship's battery has gone and everything else is up **** creek" available on the market. Hell it was mentioned similar models are available on the 400ER and without Dick being back on the forums to reply, I think we could give him the benefit of the doubt on what he meant even if it didn't read clearly.

So with that and a Garmin 296, I'd say you have enough navigation and attitude information to get to the nearest base. I can't see the 296 being approved for sole means navigation or even primary means, but hell I'd take the option of a 296 and a standby attitude indicator over a black cockpit.

There also seems to be a hell of a lot of anger in this forum which I think is misdirected passion for wanting to improve things - pay rises are nice (and I'll happily take one tomorrow), but quite often a job you can be proud of means so much more.

You guys have stumbled across a failure mode which could result in a hull loss, and a lot of suggestions on which bits of swiss cheese to change. Where I work we would get our arses kicked if we left that situation untouched. There is a change management process, and peer review to make sure we're not going from bad to worse, but anyone who left something so significant without doing anything about it, would more than likely be asked not to come Monday.

Now, if management isn't taking these problems as seriously as they should be, then that is an issue CASA should be addressing and you have means of contacting the regulator to ensure that happens.

If CASA is sufficiently ineffective to help you in your cause, then I'd suggest its time to start taking it up with your local politician. There's more than enough of you Australia wide to make a heck of a lot of noise and get some action. Inaction on your part because "I can't change it" is just laziness.

[ACMS]

Let me quote uncle Dick

Despite these, I always carry a battery operated Garmin 296 GPS – I have one in the glove box in each aircraft. This means that if everything else fails, I have navigation information and also quite acceptable attitude, climb and descent information as well as ground speed. The units operate from dry cells and will keep going for many hours.

Now I'm not a rocket scientist or an English teacher but...........

Mr Smith says "despite these ( referring to the stuff above ) if all else fails.........I have quite acceptable ATTITUDE information ...........blah blah blah"

WRONG

[kalavo]

*sigh* I asked you to read everything again

In my CJ3 and in my Agusta A109E I have two generators with two separate generator control units mounted in different locations. I also have a separate battery back up unit running an attitude indicator.

Despite these, I always carry a battery operated Garmin 296 GPS – I have one in the glove box in each aircraft. This means that if everything else fails, I have navigation information and also quite acceptable attitude, climb and descent information as well as ground speed. The units operate from dry cells and will keep going for many hours.

But yes, CASA's english test will help clear up confusion on pprune when they enforce it on everyone.

[ACMS]

yeah but..............

1/ he says he has multiple generators

2/ a second Att indicator

3/ THEN he says "despite these" ( see above )

I always carry a Garmin 296 GPS..................This means that if.........

Anyway I guess he means if all else fails he has the ATT indicator AND the GPS.....................

he should have written a bit more clearly for those like me

[Jabawocky]

ACMS

I usually like your posts, but mate get off your high horse for a second. Obviously in this instance you have little knowlege of the unit in question. Yes the update rate is not as fast as my solid state EFIS, you are correct there....however it is sufficient enough to save your arse should all the good easy to use TSO'd gear went u/s on you.

If that was all you had left, plus an AI and Altimeter, normal old clocks, and the F/O grabbed the 296 and chucked it out the window saying this won't help........YOU would probably kill him with your crash axe!

The thing would save your arse....probably not with me flying it, but your highly skilled ATPL brains would make do. In fact I reckon I might have a crack at flying on it under the hood sometime soon. Might just surprise myself. Will take along a current Qantas check and trainer to make sure i do it safely and without cheating. If I remember I will let you know how it goes.

J

Thread drift off........

[kalavo]

he should have written a bit more clearly for those like me

Absolutely!

It's as clear as a CASA exam question... where the technically correct answer is most appropriate, though you have to read eight separate sections of the Regs to arrive at that answer.

Flaming it for the Level 4 English is just flaming for the sake of flaming though. Not that there's anything wrong with that - spelling and grammar are the only way you have of showing your intellect on the Internet, and as pilots we tend to expect high standards of ourselves as well as others.

Back to the topic though, his point appears to be is all this system intergration leaving us open to rare failure modes that take out all critical systems because the all suffer from the same design flaw? If so, isn't the cheap and effective solution a portable GPS capable of providing reasonably accurate navigation information far superior to a clock and compass.

The chances of you having a common fault on the same piece of equipment at the same time is relatively high compared to having the same fault on two completely separate and independant systems....

Operating 4 engines in N+1 or even N+2 / 2N isn't actually that great if they all share a common fuel source. That's why we have multiple tanks and demand the refuellers test for water, etc.

As we've seen with this incident, operating 4 GCUs isn't much to write home about if they all share the same environment, and hence subject to environmental issues like water under the floor, fire, etc.

Operating a 747 with 3x IRS, multiple screens, standby signal generators... and a Garmin 296, well the Garmin isn't going to save you from a loss of RAIM due to lack of visible satellites that's the job of the VOR, DME, INS... but it may just save you from a loss of electrics.

[Mooney Driver]

Garmin virtual panel

The Garmin "Virtual 6-pack' really DOES work, I've practised flying VOR and GPS approaches using it ALONE; it is hard work and I wouldn't want to try recovery from unusual attitudes with it, but, IT DOES WORK.

Those of you not familiar with the capabilities of modern, general aviation, portable GPS units might wish to read the following excerpt from "Aviation Consumer" magazine.
**************

Garmin 196
We reviewed Garmin’s GPSmap 196 in the September 2002 issue of Aviation Consumer, reporting briefly on the panel page feature. This page is easily accessible by toggling through the moving map page or numerical page with the page key. After dispensing with the disclaimer, the full screen is occupied by the five basic flight instruments described above. In addition, there are numerical repeaters for speed and altitude and values for ETE and distance to active waypoint. That means that on a single page, the 196 provides all the data necessary to remain upright and navigate to an airport or waypoint.

The 196’s position-in-space is derived entirely from three-dimensional GPS, including WAAS, which it’s equipped to receive. Altitudes are GPS altitudes which are heights above the GPS mathematical spheroid, not MSL nor precisely AGL altitudes. The 196’s displayed altitude usually jives with MSL altitude within a few hundred feet but descending on this data alone without other information could be fatal. Unless you’re having a terrible day, a partial-panel emergency will leave you without gyros but with working airspeed, altimeter and VSI instruments.

Speaking of airspeed, the 196’s is GPS-derived groundspeed, not indicated airspeed. The obvious shortcoming here is that in a tailwind, the 196’s speed will be higher than indicated and it will be lower than indicated in a headwind. For heading, the 196 uses GPS magnetic groundtrack, not true or magnetic heading.

Although it has no pitch indication other than trends in speed and vertical speed, the 196 does have a simulated turn coordinator, from which bank angle can be surmised, since the aircraft can’t turn unless it’s banked. The turn coordinator has no slip/skid ball; in a wings-level slip, it behaves exactly like a real turn coordinator, showing wings level. It does not, however, respond to initial yaw, as a turn coordinator does.

Garmin has clearly applied sophisticated software and rapid updating to get this display to work right and it does work right. You’d expect some jerkiness in the indications and although there’s a bit of that, the needle indications are surprisingly fluid and well damped. Start a bank to the left and the HSI dutifully begins winding around and the turn coordinator airplane banks left. Rolling out produces crisp enough response to hit headings—ground tracks—within 10 degrees. The acid test of these things is to fly them, either in the clouds or with outside references blocked. We did the latter by constructing a cardboard hood that restricted the pilot’s view to nothing but the 196 panel page, repeating a test Garmin showed us last summer. We wanted to see if a pilot could remain upright and find an airport and land, using only the 196.

He can and did. Our test pilot easily flew assigned headings, climbed and descended to specified altitudes and held straight and level. Because of slight display lag, the ride isn’t glass smooth. We noted a slight continuous wing rocking—a 5-degree bank either side of wings level. But headings and altitudes were easily maintained. The 196 has GPS approaches in its databases but even without using these, we were easily able to navigate to the runway centerline at Sky Acres, New York, descend and land in what we set as a 500-foot overcast and 1/2 -mile visibility. We repeated this exercise to another nearby airport, Stormville, New York, with the same results.

Pushing our luck further, we tried recovering from unusual attitudes in various pitch and bank-angle combinations. Our subject pilot—who had never laid eyes on a 196 before this experiment—recovered effectively if somewhat uncertainly. Recoveries take longer than they do with conventional instruments and there appears to be a tendency to overbank past wings level during the recovery, again due to display lag. But even with the overbanking, all of the recoveries eventually damped out to wings-level. In a real-world partial-panel event, the Garmin could keep you alive, in our view, provided it doesn’t lose power or satellite lock. If you want to navigate to an airport or fly an approach, you’ll need to be eyes-closed proficient with the navigator. The workload of flying and navigating while also puzzling out the receiver’s higher functions is simply too great. A better plan would be to find an exit to VFR weather.

[Motorola]

Quote:

"No one would Knowingly block a sink by poring coffee dregs down the sink."

Is that like the flight attendant that knowingly stuffed a blanket down a 744 toilet?