Latest Qf Incident,where Will All This End
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speedbirdhouse you are absolutely correct. cost cutting again has caused a near hull loss.
(after 30 min on stby pwr its back to a torch & stby compass at night in rain etc.)
By removing the coffee pillow packs & tea pot bags to save a dollar or two per flight,
the loose grinds find their way into the drains and Bingo, the plane dark and quiet.
Cutting costs to maintenance is not the only way those at the top are putting peoples
lives at risk. Hopefully this last upset will shake them back to the reality.
But I feel we are banging our heads against a brick wall!
(after 30 min on stby pwr its back to a torch & stby compass at night in rain etc.)
By removing the coffee pillow packs & tea pot bags to save a dollar or two per flight,
the loose grinds find their way into the drains and Bingo, the plane dark and quiet.
Cutting costs to maintenance is not the only way those at the top are putting peoples
lives at risk. Hopefully this last upset will shake them back to the reality.
But I feel we are banging our heads against a brick wall!
Last edited by Short_Circuit; 9th Jan 2008 at 20:57.
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mrpaxing, the galley floors are sealed units with drains in the corners to drain any floor spills, these too block with grinds. So it is still a fact that by not having pillow packs / tea pot bags, drains will block. Yes the ice draw drains are poorly designed by J@mco but incident reports need to done each time this spill happens, thorough cleaning and now, inspections of the E racks for moisture will have to be done!! (get my drift).
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The problem is or should I say one of the many problems is that the company from the top down has given the order to save money at every chance.
This means that CC dep like every other is looking at everything they can do so they can say"hey we saved X dollars just like you asked Darth"
The result though even when logged by CC is said to be whinging because the visitors don't want to admit that they made a wrong call.
This means that CC dep like every other is looking at everything they can do so they can say"hey we saved X dollars just like you asked Darth"
The result though even when logged by CC is said to be whinging because the visitors don't want to admit that they made a wrong call.
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How dare anyone criticise Dixon, Gregg etc..it's a little known fact that these 2 gentlemen invented aviation!
What would those dunces in Flight Ops and Engineering know about operating and maintaining aircraft, you need to be an accountant or at least possess an MBA in order to be able to make a knowledgeable comment on this subject.
"A330-300's go further than 200's"
"The 777 is old technology"
We are very lucky to have these two, to prevent QF making the mistakes that all our competitors have made.
What would those dunces in Flight Ops and Engineering know about operating and maintaining aircraft, you need to be an accountant or at least possess an MBA in order to be able to make a knowledgeable comment on this subject.
"A330-300's go further than 200's"
"The 777 is old technology"
We are very lucky to have these two, to prevent QF making the mistakes that all our competitors have made.
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Just for a little perspective, there's a lot of blame on here on cost cutting. And with the tiers of personnel in Qantas, this means that there has to be many willing participants in the process, including the "workers".
It appears in this case that two things have come together (and bear in mind I'm only making an assumption based on the postings on pprune): loose procedures in the cabin with a clogged sink and a missing drain thingy/water barrier. Is this a result of cost cutting that coffee grounds are disposed in the sink and the ginger beers leave off the drain thingy?
I would think an important question to ask is where is the drain if it was indeed left off? Usually if there are components left around in a hangar after the aircraft is pushed out, someone will ask why. I can't see an engineer depositing an extra drain to the stores without raising some red flags.
In a classic safety study way, either one of these components to the incident is not a huge concern. Put them both together and they could have destroyed an aircraft and its contents. How many people in the world could have forseen that? Perhaps there will be a greater awareness of the need to follow procedures even down to disposing of coffee grounds.
It appears in this case that two things have come together (and bear in mind I'm only making an assumption based on the postings on pprune): loose procedures in the cabin with a clogged sink and a missing drain thingy/water barrier. Is this a result of cost cutting that coffee grounds are disposed in the sink and the ginger beers leave off the drain thingy?
I would think an important question to ask is where is the drain if it was indeed left off? Usually if there are components left around in a hangar after the aircraft is pushed out, someone will ask why. I can't see an engineer depositing an extra drain to the stores without raising some red flags.
In a classic safety study way, either one of these components to the incident is not a huge concern. Put them both together and they could have destroyed an aircraft and its contents. How many people in the world could have forseen that? Perhaps there will be a greater awareness of the need to follow procedures even down to disposing of coffee grounds.
Last edited by Lodown; 9th Jan 2008 at 22:12.
In my CJ3 and in my Agusta A109E I have two generators with two separate generator control units mounted in different locations. I also have a separate battery back up unit running an attitude indicator.
Despite these, I always carry a battery operated Garmin 296 GPS – I have one in the glove box in each aircraft. This means that if everything else fails, I have navigation information and also quite acceptable attitude, climb and descent information as well as ground speed. The units operate from dry cells and will keep going for many hours.
Has Qantas ever thought of equipping each aircraft with one of these small portable units? The cost is virtually nothing and in the situation at Bangkok, if the same problem had occurred at night over the Pacific in the LAX – Sydney flight, a small GPS could have saved the lives of everyone. What do others think?
Despite these, I always carry a battery operated Garmin 296 GPS – I have one in the glove box in each aircraft. This means that if everything else fails, I have navigation information and also quite acceptable attitude, climb and descent information as well as ground speed. The units operate from dry cells and will keep going for many hours.
Has Qantas ever thought of equipping each aircraft with one of these small portable units? The cost is virtually nothing and in the situation at Bangkok, if the same problem had occurred at night over the Pacific in the LAX – Sydney flight, a small GPS could have saved the lives of everyone. What do others think?
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Lodown,
The barrier is a water tight seal as in a shower recess to stop water leaking through the lining of the floor / walls. It is inspected on larger maintenance periods, I am guessing at a C check, it is not a physical component that is missing. Yes, cutting costs by not using coffee / tea bags is directly attributable to the latest incident. No matter how careful CC are at disposing grinds, some will spill, wet or dry and clog. If they were still enclosed pillow packs there would be no problem. Secondly, many hours are spent during A checks flushing drain lines as routine maintenance. What is the saving now that we have to expend manhours flushing drains because of a few bucks saved in coffee / tea bags???
Hi Dick, I suggest that cost will be the factor again. One handheld GPS does not weigh much, but to a QF bean counter, one GPS per A/C on every flight in the QF system equals X fuel burn over one year equals unacceptable cost. And of cause you are never going to need one, are you???
The barrier is a water tight seal as in a shower recess to stop water leaking through the lining of the floor / walls. It is inspected on larger maintenance periods, I am guessing at a C check, it is not a physical component that is missing. Yes, cutting costs by not using coffee / tea bags is directly attributable to the latest incident. No matter how careful CC are at disposing grinds, some will spill, wet or dry and clog. If they were still enclosed pillow packs there would be no problem. Secondly, many hours are spent during A checks flushing drain lines as routine maintenance. What is the saving now that we have to expend manhours flushing drains because of a few bucks saved in coffee / tea bags???
Hi Dick, I suggest that cost will be the factor again. One handheld GPS does not weigh much, but to a QF bean counter, one GPS per A/C on every flight in the QF system equals X fuel burn over one year equals unacceptable cost. And of cause you are never going to need one, are you???
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Writting on the Wall
Yep.....The writting was in the wall then and its been all downhill since. Time you all took a look around and realised that the light at the end of the tunnel was a train, and you've been run over.
The end result of all this is reduced qaulity of maintenance and an accident such as the one above.
The end result of all this is reduced qaulity of maintenance and an accident such as the one above.
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Dick - the GPS units sometimes have trouble working through the heated glass windows on the boeings - they do work sometimes on a rear side window, with attached suction cup antenna.
I guess if all power is gone then the windows wont have current ...................
I guess if all power is gone then the windows wont have current ...................
Last edited by blueloo; 9th Jan 2008 at 23:02.
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Blocked drains
Lowdown
I know that Cabin crew are not supposed to put coffee grinds down the sinks,but in reality when everyone at the airline is getting screwed equally, things like this are not really cared about.
Not only coffee down the sink, how about blankets down the toilets, it all comes back to poor morale from being screwed so often for so long
I know that Cabin crew are not supposed to put coffee grinds down the sinks,but in reality when everyone at the airline is getting screwed equally, things like this are not really cared about.
Not only coffee down the sink, how about blankets down the toilets, it all comes back to poor morale from being screwed so often for so long
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Barrier
Short Circuit,
I think that the Barrier in question may in fact be the drip shield that is located directly above the Equipment Racks in the MEC. The Bus Power Contol Units and Generator Control Units are located on the top shelf of these racks. This shield is not usually disturbed during a C Check, it is more likely to get damaged during a Major Modification, for example Skybed when the floorboards would have been removed for seat track mods and galley rework.
I think that the Barrier in question may in fact be the drip shield that is located directly above the Equipment Racks in the MEC. The Bus Power Contol Units and Generator Control Units are located on the top shelf of these racks. This shield is not usually disturbed during a C Check, it is more likely to get damaged during a Major Modification, for example Skybed when the floorboards would have been removed for seat track mods and galley rework.
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^ No that is a "drip shield" (and was found cracked) the blue plastic paint on the galley floor is the barrier. Then there is sealed floor boards before the drip tray.
But you may well be correct they may be disturbed during reconfig or IFE installation.
But you may well be correct they may be disturbed during reconfig or IFE installation.
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i takes more to fly an aircraft than a radio and instruments,there are also engines and flight controls,that's what makes the aircraft move,move is what it does at 30,000 ft,what would of happened with the last of the available DC gone.
This reminds me of the DC 10 that crashed with the loss of hydraulics power to ALL 3 sys a few years back ,all it took to take the aircraft out was 1 grain of SAND(it was in the #2 eng compressor disc,left over from the day it was cast).
1 SIMPLE GRAIN OF SAND KILLED MANY PEOPLE,WHEN WILL THESE MANAGERS LEARN, SORRY ACCOUNTANTS THAT AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE HAS TO BE DONE RIGHT THE 1ST TIME,SOMETIMES YOU DON'T GET A SECOND CHANCE.
This reminds me of the DC 10 that crashed with the loss of hydraulics power to ALL 3 sys a few years back ,all it took to take the aircraft out was 1 grain of SAND(it was in the #2 eng compressor disc,left over from the day it was cast).
1 SIMPLE GRAIN OF SAND KILLED MANY PEOPLE,WHEN WILL THESE MANAGERS LEARN, SORRY ACCOUNTANTS THAT AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE HAS TO BE DONE RIGHT THE 1ST TIME,SOMETIMES YOU DON'T GET A SECOND CHANCE.
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The good thing about the 747-400 is that it is a mechanical aircraft. If you have fuel in the tanks and the engines keep running then you will have hydraulic power and flight controls. A has been mentioned previously Airbus puts the critical stuff out of harms way. May be Boeing might need to look at that for future designs
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I'm sure everyone who has completed HF training will remember, that if a potential failure path is identified, you should put in place another line of defence. In other words, if the holes in the cheese look like they might line up, put another slice of cheese in.
Ban the beans, bring back the bags, forget the cost, compare to the cost of a hull loss!!
BTW, well done to the professional LAMEs who inspected the 744s in quick time, despite EBA issues.
Ban the beans, bring back the bags, forget the cost, compare to the cost of a hull loss!!
BTW, well done to the professional LAMEs who inspected the 744s in quick time, despite EBA issues.
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Originally posted by Dick Smith.
In my CJ3 and in my Agusta A109E I have two generators with two separate generator control units mounted in different locations. I also have a separate battery back up unit running an attitude indicator.
Despite these, I always carry a battery operated Garmin 296 GPS – I have one in the glove box in each aircraft. This means that if everything else fails, I have navigation information and also quite acceptable attitude, climb and descent information as well as ground speed. The units operate from dry cells and will keep going for many hours.
Has Qantas ever thought of equipping each aircraft with one of these small portable units? The cost is virtually nothing and in the situation at Bangkok, if the same problem had occurred at night over the Pacific in the LAX – Sydney flight, a small GPS could have saved the lives of everyone. What do others think?
In my CJ3 and in my Agusta A109E I have two generators with two separate generator control units mounted in different locations. I also have a separate battery back up unit running an attitude indicator.
Despite these, I always carry a battery operated Garmin 296 GPS – I have one in the glove box in each aircraft. This means that if everything else fails, I have navigation information and also quite acceptable attitude, climb and descent information as well as ground speed. The units operate from dry cells and will keep going for many hours.
Has Qantas ever thought of equipping each aircraft with one of these small portable units? The cost is virtually nothing and in the situation at Bangkok, if the same problem had occurred at night over the Pacific in the LAX – Sydney flight, a small GPS could have saved the lives of everyone. What do others think?
I hope you never find yourself plumiting through the air with the ground rushing up, while your plane falls apart around you.
Never mind Dick at least you'll be able to track your progress on your battery powered GPS....