Latest Qf Incident,where Will All This End
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OLIV2, i think noone answered your question regarding the APU, you guessed right, logic prevents the start of a 744 APU in flight. It can be operated and supply electrics and pneumatics up to a certain altitude if it was started on the ground, but it can not start once in air
Cheers
Cheers
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can confirm OJM was in Avalon (Hangar 5)around September 2007. I'm pretty sure it was a C-check, though there's a chance it was only an A.
Glad I never went near the MEC on that one...
Off topic, (and directed mostly to SCHAIRBUS) the last plane I remember being in Sydney Heavy was OEE. Or was that the one in there when they announced heavy was shutting in three months?
Glad I never went near the MEC on that one...
Off topic, (and directed mostly to SCHAIRBUS) the last plane I remember being in Sydney Heavy was OEE. Or was that the one in there when they announced heavy was shutting in three months?
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 47
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Nudlaug.
Torqueman - a bit harsh there. Maybe you saw something in DS's post that I didn't but surely your response is a bit harsh. His comments relate to his private fleet and his personal methods of dealing with the unknown. Simple question was asked about the idea of hand-held devices on commercials. I don't think this in anyway detracts from the other (very valid) points about the state of operations at QF. Seems a shame to attack someone like that.
Torqueman - a bit harsh there. Maybe you saw something in DS's post that I didn't but surely your response is a bit harsh. His comments relate to his private fleet and his personal methods of dealing with the unknown. Simple question was asked about the idea of hand-held devices on commercials. I don't think this in anyway detracts from the other (very valid) points about the state of operations at QF. Seems a shame to attack someone like that.
DICK: how does your hand held GPS provide you with Att info updated fast enough to fly in IMC with? I'd like to see you try that under the hood.
Apart from GS and Alt what ATT info does it give you anyway?
It will only tell what has ALREADY happened, and maybe too late.
Apart from GS and Alt what ATT info does it give you anyway?
It will only tell what has ALREADY happened, and maybe too late.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Oz
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OliV2,
it was meant to be harsh. This kind of quick fix response has become systemic in the industry and management alike.
People are sick to death of hearing people like Dick, who have a reasonable all rounded voice which people are inclined to listen to, comment in such away.
What he has in effect said is lets treat the symptoms or what we see on the surface. People have been screaming at the top of their lungs for some time now about the underlying problems and causes, or the disease if you like that is destroying this once great industry in Australia.
Why don't people like Dick take the time to look at the root of these problems. Would installing a portable GPS in the cockpit of a 747 have stopped the water from getting to the BCU's, would it help the engineer to have been more qualified and better resourced to carry out their inspections. That is the root of the problem.
By the way the APU can't supply electrical power in flight. It can't be started in flight. If it departs with it running it can supply pneumatics to around 15,000'.
Dick to his credit has been a great champion to improving the aviation industry. Airspace and the like. This is all to no avail if the planes continually drop out of it.
it was meant to be harsh. This kind of quick fix response has become systemic in the industry and management alike.
People are sick to death of hearing people like Dick, who have a reasonable all rounded voice which people are inclined to listen to, comment in such away.
What he has in effect said is lets treat the symptoms or what we see on the surface. People have been screaming at the top of their lungs for some time now about the underlying problems and causes, or the disease if you like that is destroying this once great industry in Australia.
Why don't people like Dick take the time to look at the root of these problems. Would installing a portable GPS in the cockpit of a 747 have stopped the water from getting to the BCU's, would it help the engineer to have been more qualified and better resourced to carry out their inspections. That is the root of the problem.
By the way the APU can't supply electrical power in flight. It can't be started in flight. If it departs with it running it can supply pneumatics to around 15,000'.
Dick to his credit has been a great champion to improving the aviation industry. Airspace and the like. This is all to no avail if the planes continually drop out of it.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Where I'm not alarmed
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Inexperienced or poorly trained cabin crew may have been a factor
Just maybe the engineers will see an end to this caper now that the culprits can see what their laziness can (potentially) inflict on the innocent.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a similar vien, I visited a major capitol city Control Tower last year and we were discussing redundancy.
After discussing multiple path electrics and diesel generators the ATC guy said, "...and if all else fails we have a couple of hand held VHF transceivers over there to talk to the aircraft until something is fixed". Sure enought there were two ICOM's hanging by straps on the wall.
It was simple, inexpensive and so very easy to use. I think Dick's idea is a good one!
After discussing multiple path electrics and diesel generators the ATC guy said, "...and if all else fails we have a couple of hand held VHF transceivers over there to talk to the aircraft until something is fixed". Sure enought there were two ICOM's hanging by straps on the wall.
It was simple, inexpensive and so very easy to use. I think Dick's idea is a good one!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Mention1
A bugsmasher driver like me might struggle in IMC on just a 296, but I can assure you that all of you lot on here that are airline drivers would probably save the day if you only had a 296 left in your panel and in IMC......sure the update rate is a fraction slower for the synthetic instruments but I bet you would survive!
Not suggesting anyone should regularly fly that way of course!
J
PS.....Speedbirdhouse, not sure of BA LERT's medication requirements, but he does have a point.
A bugsmasher driver like me might struggle in IMC on just a 296, but I can assure you that all of you lot on here that are airline drivers would probably save the day if you only had a 296 left in your panel and in IMC......sure the update rate is a fraction slower for the synthetic instruments but I bet you would survive!
Not suggesting anyone should regularly fly that way of course!
J
PS.....Speedbirdhouse, not sure of BA LERT's medication requirements, but he does have a point.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sydney
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They might not intend to block a drain but they have been asked many many times not to do it.They see the results of it everyday if they pour it down the drain. It is just laziness
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NSW
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"People are sick to death of hearing people like Dick, who have a reasonable all rounded voice which people are inclined to listen to, comment in such away."
I think that you think you speak for all...you don't. I am willing to listen to anyone with useful opinions on saving lives...including Dick.
Yes there are obviously root causes...but the point was that regardless of root causes, all civil aircraft should have COM & NAV ability that is totally redundant. Handhelds are totally redundant and I believe with a suction cup antenna, in the hands of a skilled crew, could be used to save the day.
Or maybe Boeing & Airbus etc should build a totally seperate,hand-held, low-power battery backup system. Perhaps the ability to plug EFBs into auxiliary GPS antennas? Then again if the power goes on an Airbus, I'm not sure how the fly-by-wire system would go.
I think that you think you speak for all...you don't. I am willing to listen to anyone with useful opinions on saving lives...including Dick.
Yes there are obviously root causes...but the point was that regardless of root causes, all civil aircraft should have COM & NAV ability that is totally redundant. Handhelds are totally redundant and I believe with a suction cup antenna, in the hands of a skilled crew, could be used to save the day.
Or maybe Boeing & Airbus etc should build a totally seperate,hand-held, low-power battery backup system. Perhaps the ability to plug EFBs into auxiliary GPS antennas? Then again if the power goes on an Airbus, I'm not sure how the fly-by-wire system would go.
Last edited by northcoastal; 10th Jan 2008 at 02:34.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Where I'm not alarmed
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No one would Knowingly block a sink by poring coffee dregs down the sink.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the system is redundant ,loss of gcu,s stanby inverter powers capts screen fmc ,vhf1 capts cp,is this not redundant ? i think maybe that there is more of a problem yet to be investigated.with one gcu dropping all others offline,
as for carrying handheld stuff where do you stop?
yes battery pwr lasts about an hour but the donks keep turning.
as for carrying handheld stuff where do you stop?
yes battery pwr lasts about an hour but the donks keep turning.
I seem to recall other Pprune threads that indicated that Qantas CC numbers have been pared to the bone, thereby increasing their workload, morale is low and experience levels are low as a result of turnover.
So whats to stop an inexperienced, overworked, tired and stressed CC from washing out a coffee maker in the sink like he/she does at home? The coffee grounds goes down the sink at home, so why not on an aircraft?
Swiss cheese holes that lined up this time appear to include:
1. Cracked water deflector. (Should it have been found during last check? Who checked? What was their training and experience level? And what was their state of mind and the size of their workload?).
2. Loose coffee grounds instead of bags. (Bean counters)
3. Grounds down drain (Who chucked them? What was their training and experience level? And what was their state of mind and the size of their workload?).)
4. Blocked drain. (Boeing design)
The Swiss cheese holes that might have existed but didn't......
5. Min spec'd Aircraft with limited redundancy (Boeing has a stack of options on how you configure the aircraft, (ie: Dual this and triple that) there is a lot of safety gear that is optional, depending where you want to fly the aircraft )
6. Crew already having to deal with another problem, perhaps maintenance related.
7. Stressed, tired, badly paid and inexperienced pilots at the controls.
......And all of a sudden the crew overloads trying to sort out the aircraft and...........!
My guess is that Qantas will now crucify the LAME who last signed off on that drip shield, plus the cabin crew who poured the coffee.
Cheers to the crew! Boos and catcalls to management!
So whats to stop an inexperienced, overworked, tired and stressed CC from washing out a coffee maker in the sink like he/she does at home? The coffee grounds goes down the sink at home, so why not on an aircraft?
Swiss cheese holes that lined up this time appear to include:
1. Cracked water deflector. (Should it have been found during last check? Who checked? What was their training and experience level? And what was their state of mind and the size of their workload?).
2. Loose coffee grounds instead of bags. (Bean counters)
3. Grounds down drain (Who chucked them? What was their training and experience level? And what was their state of mind and the size of their workload?).)
4. Blocked drain. (Boeing design)
The Swiss cheese holes that might have existed but didn't......
5. Min spec'd Aircraft with limited redundancy (Boeing has a stack of options on how you configure the aircraft, (ie: Dual this and triple that) there is a lot of safety gear that is optional, depending where you want to fly the aircraft )
6. Crew already having to deal with another problem, perhaps maintenance related.
7. Stressed, tired, badly paid and inexperienced pilots at the controls.
......And all of a sudden the crew overloads trying to sort out the aircraft and...........!
My guess is that Qantas will now crucify the LAME who last signed off on that drip shield, plus the cabin crew who poured the coffee.
Cheers to the crew! Boos and catcalls to management!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok BA_Lert and Super Lame
Have you ever tried to clean out a bodem on an aircraft? We are told to pour it in a the bin ... the bins always leak, but we do it anyway. Then we have to wash the pot and the plunger (bother have coffee grains stuck to them). That has to be done with a hot water tap - a sink is under every tap. If we didnt use plunger coffee/tea there would be no problem. It isnt laziness - its just the equipment/ product we have to use.
Plunger coffee usually isnt a problem in the area of the aircraft that went sour into BKK - we have an espresso machine that uses sealed pods in the doors 1 galley, we rarely (if ever) use plunger coffee there.
If you have another way to clean out a plunger coffee jug (which isnt related to laziness) please let us know! We used to pour it down the loo to stop blocking drains (and because of the constantly leaking bins). But we arent allowed to do that anymore.
We do our job as best we can with the crap equipment we are given, and the galleys that are never maintained. Nobody intentionally pours coffee grounds down a drain, it is inevitable - we are the cleaners, the bodums dont magically clean themselves at the end of every sector (they are only changed by catering in Australia)
So before you point the finger at 'lazy crew' try and see it from another person's point of view -----> the people who actually do it ! And point the finger at those who make us do it, rather than those who have to.
Have you ever tried to clean out a bodem on an aircraft? We are told to pour it in a the bin ... the bins always leak, but we do it anyway. Then we have to wash the pot and the plunger (bother have coffee grains stuck to them). That has to be done with a hot water tap - a sink is under every tap. If we didnt use plunger coffee/tea there would be no problem. It isnt laziness - its just the equipment/ product we have to use.
Plunger coffee usually isnt a problem in the area of the aircraft that went sour into BKK - we have an espresso machine that uses sealed pods in the doors 1 galley, we rarely (if ever) use plunger coffee there.
If you have another way to clean out a plunger coffee jug (which isnt related to laziness) please let us know! We used to pour it down the loo to stop blocking drains (and because of the constantly leaking bins). But we arent allowed to do that anymore.
We do our job as best we can with the crap equipment we are given, and the galleys that are never maintained. Nobody intentionally pours coffee grounds down a drain, it is inevitable - we are the cleaners, the bodums dont magically clean themselves at the end of every sector (they are only changed by catering in Australia)
So before you point the finger at 'lazy crew' try and see it from another person's point of view -----> the people who actually do it ! And point the finger at those who make us do it, rather than those who have to.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane
Age: 49
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the SLFs PoV
I am not employed by the airlines nor have I ever worked in the aviation industry.
I have been watching this forum for a month or so and this is the first time I have been moved to respond.
This incident strikes me as being a terrible stroke of bad luck. Aircraft have been hit by lightning more times than this has happened. Just because some people had a hand in it, doesnt mean they are the cause. Corrective actions should be taken, but it should be taken for what it is, very, very, bad luck.
Flying to wherever regardless of wx or anything is still the safest part of my day. And that is a credit to the discipline of all parts of the aviation industry. Notably it is largely self discipline, based entirely on the each persons personal integrity.
I have been watching this forum for a month or so and this is the first time I have been moved to respond.
This incident strikes me as being a terrible stroke of bad luck. Aircraft have been hit by lightning more times than this has happened. Just because some people had a hand in it, doesnt mean they are the cause. Corrective actions should be taken, but it should be taken for what it is, very, very, bad luck.
Flying to wherever regardless of wx or anything is still the safest part of my day. And that is a credit to the discipline of all parts of the aviation industry. Notably it is largely self discipline, based entirely on the each persons personal integrity.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
alot of jumping to conclusions.
1.was it coffe blocking sink i doubt it
2.could have been a leaking water filter
3.why so quick to shoot the cc
4.dripshield installed ?or cracked
5.nmultiple failure,
1.was it coffe blocking sink i doubt it
2.could have been a leaking water filter
3.why so quick to shoot the cc
4.dripshield installed ?or cracked
5.nmultiple failure,
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Up left - Down right
Posts: 946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cart elevator & chemical alli,
You mention espresso machine in P/C galley, how often are they serviceable, 25% don't work and QF do not have spares, so the plunger comes out and the loose grinds. You must wash the plunger each use or pax will complain about the grinds.
1. coffee that blocked the sink? ----------- more than likely, usually is.
2. could have been a leaking water filter - --filters usually block not leak.
3. why so quick to shoot the CC ----------- we are not
4. drip shield installed? or cracked --------- cracked
5. multiple failure -------------------------- most defiantly
fatigue, cheap products, rushed maintenance, holes in cheese lining up - you bet it is, caused by cost cutting ..... absolutley...
You mention espresso machine in P/C galley, how often are they serviceable, 25% don't work and QF do not have spares, so the plunger comes out and the loose grinds. You must wash the plunger each use or pax will complain about the grinds.
1. coffee that blocked the sink? ----------- more than likely, usually is.
2. could have been a leaking water filter - --filters usually block not leak.
3. why so quick to shoot the CC ----------- we are not
4. drip shield installed? or cracked --------- cracked
5. multiple failure -------------------------- most defiantly
fatigue, cheap products, rushed maintenance, holes in cheese lining up - you bet it is, caused by cost cutting ..... absolutley...
