Unity
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I find it interesting that the QF folks now want some unity.
18 months ago they did'nt want to know or associate with anyone outside of their own daddy's boy/old school tie environment.
It's amazing what a good dose of reality can do for your perspective.
It seems that the real world is no longer an optical illusion only fit for the great unwashed.
This is great to watch.
Ahab
18 months ago they did'nt want to know or associate with anyone outside of their own daddy's boy/old school tie environment.
It's amazing what a good dose of reality can do for your perspective.
It seems that the real world is no longer an optical illusion only fit for the great unwashed.
This is great to watch.
Ahab
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"18 months ago they did'nt want to know or associate with anyone outside of their own daddy's boy/old school tie environment."
Ahab,
False. The truth is in fact the opposite. There may have been some individuals with attitudes you ascribe, however you do a grave injustice to the vast majority.
But then, I'm just ruining a good story, aren't I?
N
Ahab,
False. The truth is in fact the opposite. There may have been some individuals with attitudes you ascribe, however you do a grave injustice to the vast majority.
But then, I'm just ruining a good story, aren't I?
N
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Captahab,
Noip is spot on. There were many heads shaking when the JQ girls/guys were told we didn't want them by AIPA (more to the point, the president of the time). These rumblings of unity had been made well before that happened. The decision was viewed by all as one management normally make - Unbelievably stupid and clearly did not reflect the wishes of the members!
On a side note - I've also had the very unfortunate pleasure of listening to that particular ex-pres carry on in the bar (some time ago) and as a junior pilot in the company, I was astounded as to how somebody who's a supposed "leader" of our group was so out of touch and full of himself.
Keg is right though, regardless of what has happened in the past (recent or ancient) the time for unity and progress is now!
Noip is spot on. There were many heads shaking when the JQ girls/guys were told we didn't want them by AIPA (more to the point, the president of the time). These rumblings of unity had been made well before that happened. The decision was viewed by all as one management normally make - Unbelievably stupid and clearly did not reflect the wishes of the members!
On a side note - I've also had the very unfortunate pleasure of listening to that particular ex-pres carry on in the bar (some time ago) and as a junior pilot in the company, I was astounded as to how somebody who's a supposed "leader" of our group was so out of touch and full of himself.
Keg is right though, regardless of what has happened in the past (recent or ancient) the time for unity and progress is now!
Nunc est bibendum
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Dehavilanddriver
I reckon we need a combined pilot group - a PROPER ALPA rather than one that represents either the QF mainline guys/gals or the Virgin guys/gals.
Originally Posted by Keg
...on your last point we are in FULL agreeance!
So you can stick to your mantra (delusions) that QF drivers want to exclude themselves from the rest of the industry but the reality is that there have been many QF drivers over many years who acknowledge the benefits of working with others and taking an industry view rather than an isolationist view.
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Keg
I have always been of the opinion that ALL airline pilots in Aus should be represented by one group/union/fed or whatever you would like to call it.
Your statement of a previous post (if you read it carefully) is NOT from 744driver/737driver/A330Driver etc etc, it is from a member of one of the "excluded" until it helps our cause groups.
Your quote
"Idiot. This is from February 2004....THREE years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dehavilanddriver
I reckon we need a combined pilot group - a PROPER ALPA rather than one that represents either the QF mainline guys/gals or the Virgin guys/gals."
End quote
Do not go quoting other peoples ideas as mainline.
When your own Dash 8 drivers can bid for mainline or international aircraft then you will have demonstrated that you are serious about extending the hand of friendship and unity to VB etc.
Skypatrol
This ex-pres you refer to, is this the same dude that was half pi$$ed and shooting his mouth off about how the ex Ansett guys have destroyed the "culture" in Qantas.
Whe you guys sort your internal poo poos and everyone in your group gets the same respect/rights then you will be ready to progress from the playground
Ahab
I have always been of the opinion that ALL airline pilots in Aus should be represented by one group/union/fed or whatever you would like to call it.
Your statement of a previous post (if you read it carefully) is NOT from 744driver/737driver/A330Driver etc etc, it is from a member of one of the "excluded" until it helps our cause groups.
Your quote
"Idiot. This is from February 2004....THREE years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dehavilanddriver
I reckon we need a combined pilot group - a PROPER ALPA rather than one that represents either the QF mainline guys/gals or the Virgin guys/gals."
End quote
Do not go quoting other peoples ideas as mainline.
When your own Dash 8 drivers can bid for mainline or international aircraft then you will have demonstrated that you are serious about extending the hand of friendship and unity to VB etc.
Skypatrol
This ex-pres you refer to, is this the same dude that was half pi$$ed and shooting his mouth off about how the ex Ansett guys have destroyed the "culture" in Qantas.
Whe you guys sort your internal poo poos and everyone in your group gets the same respect/rights then you will be ready to progress from the playground
Ahab
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Ahab. I think you'll find Keg's suggestion was to get two similar groups talking, both groups in a similar state of negotiation. You'll also find that many insiders have been pushing for the 'group' to fall under the one representation, which is another issue altogether. If you think unity is a good idea, why are you so quick to shutdown those who push for it?
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" When your own Dash 8 drivers can bid for mainline or international aircraft then you will have demonstrated..."
Ahab,
Your eagerness to attack another group is matched only by your ignorance of the facts. Perhaps your powers of persuasion with Darth will exceed those of mainline pilots, who have ALWAYS supported this avenue as a sensible career path within Qantas.
Perhaps you should consider that your antagonism is mis-directed?
N
(edited to correct the quote)
Ahab,
Your eagerness to attack another group is matched only by your ignorance of the facts. Perhaps your powers of persuasion with Darth will exceed those of mainline pilots, who have ALWAYS supported this avenue as a sensible career path within Qantas.
Perhaps you should consider that your antagonism is mis-directed?
N
(edited to correct the quote)
Last edited by noip; 1st Feb 2007 at 05:44.
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Unity amongst Airline pilots or pilots as a whole. The reason it's tough at the top is because the disease from GA has spread to the top of the Tree. Look down from your misty heights and help fix GA conditions and you WONT and wouldn't have the problems you have now.
Put pressure on the unions to increase the GA award to come close to the increase’s that other professions have had and you’ll see an increase in your T’s and C’s . Now is the time. Supply and demand is on our side.
When will people realise that the situation is of our own doing. We put up with sub standard conditions at the bottom and management has taken advantage of this at the top. Step aside from your 747 or 737 and look at the industry as a whole.
At present there are pilots willing to fly 717’s for 58,000 a year (after salary sacrificing their endorsement). It’s a JOKE. These pilots should be a shamed.
Put pressure on the unions to increase the GA award to come close to the increase’s that other professions have had and you’ll see an increase in your T’s and C’s . Now is the time. Supply and demand is on our side.
When will people realise that the situation is of our own doing. We put up with sub standard conditions at the bottom and management has taken advantage of this at the top. Step aside from your 747 or 737 and look at the industry as a whole.
At present there are pilots willing to fly 717’s for 58,000 a year (after salary sacrificing their endorsement). It’s a JOKE. These pilots should be a shamed.
Noip,
Several years ago we attempted to negotiate with QF FLT OPS management an avenue for the regional pilots to have a career path who were facing redundancy after 9/11. Unfortunately resistance was found within AIPA and not management. The response at the time was" Sort it out with them, then approach us".
Your defence regarding the past president is true, however, as members there was never a motion passed to tackle this issue. If the vast majority of members were concerned there would have been an agenda placed on the table of the AIPA committee.
The reality was and still is that the vast majority of members were not concerned for the welfare of the subsidiary pilots. The concern has only arisen through the reality that mainline career advancement is evaporating rapidly.
You as a member back then were accountable for the actions of the president.
Keg,
The problem with past events are that they have an irreversible effect on the future. You can't sweep history under the carpet and expect to start afresh to confront the brave new industrial world. What has occured can be paralleled to the 'beaten dog syndrome'.
Whether it was yesterday or a decade ago, people have long memories and there are still people within your organisation who orchestrated these past events.
Several years ago we attempted to negotiate with QF FLT OPS management an avenue for the regional pilots to have a career path who were facing redundancy after 9/11. Unfortunately resistance was found within AIPA and not management. The response at the time was" Sort it out with them, then approach us".
Your defence regarding the past president is true, however, as members there was never a motion passed to tackle this issue. If the vast majority of members were concerned there would have been an agenda placed on the table of the AIPA committee.
The reality was and still is that the vast majority of members were not concerned for the welfare of the subsidiary pilots. The concern has only arisen through the reality that mainline career advancement is evaporating rapidly.
You as a member back then were accountable for the actions of the president.
Keg,
The problem with past events are that they have an irreversible effect on the future. You can't sweep history under the carpet and expect to start afresh to confront the brave new industrial world. What has occured can be paralleled to the 'beaten dog syndrome'.
Whether it was yesterday or a decade ago, people have long memories and there are still people within your organisation who orchestrated these past events.
Last edited by KABOY; 1st Feb 2007 at 07:27. Reason: typo
Nunc est bibendum
Thread Starter
Given that you can't follow the logic Ahab let me spell it out for you nice and simple. YOU made the point that unity is something that QF crew have only gotten into in the last 18 months. I disagree entirely with that prospect and that QF drivers for a considerably longer time than that have believed in unity. As an example I quoted Dehavilanddriver, who I have always understood to be a Virgin Pilot, making the point that we should be all working together. Now here is where your logic fails you. Me, as a long time QF employee agreed with that statement. Therefore your delusions about it only being on QF drivers minds in the last 18 months are just that. As my quotes show, a QF driver was talking unity three years ago.
Were the forums able to search back to May 2001 and I reckon you'd find QF drivers talking about unity of the QF pilot group back then when we first bought Impulse. If you go back earlier than that then again I reckon you'll find QF drivers talking about a unified pilot group at earlier times.
So bang on all you like but the reality is that most QF drivers know the history. I'm just determined that your delusional ramblings don't go uncorrected.
KABOY, as members we were kept largely in the dark. I remember being told directly and to my face by someone quite high in the association at the time that we were 'working with the impulse and regional pilots about representation'. Time has shown that to be a lie. Call me industrially naieve at the time.
As to this:
Yep. I get it. I understand it. I understand that it causes us issues and I understand the reticent that some feel about it. My post was about not banging on about it over and over again on this thread. Less than 200 out of 2300 crew were in QF when AIPA split from AFAP. We have less than 300 that were 'heroes' (as they are known in the PPRUNE venacular) in '89. Since '92 QF have employed some 1200 crew- more than half their pilot body. It's time to put a line under that and move on.
Those who fail to learn the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them. I couldn't agree more. However those who continue to look to the past fail to see the future passing them by.....or as my mother put it the other day, 'the longer you look backward over your shoulder, the closer you are to walking into oncoming traffic'.
Were the forums able to search back to May 2001 and I reckon you'd find QF drivers talking about unity of the QF pilot group back then when we first bought Impulse. If you go back earlier than that then again I reckon you'll find QF drivers talking about a unified pilot group at earlier times.
So bang on all you like but the reality is that most QF drivers know the history. I'm just determined that your delusional ramblings don't go uncorrected.
KABOY, as members we were kept largely in the dark. I remember being told directly and to my face by someone quite high in the association at the time that we were 'working with the impulse and regional pilots about representation'. Time has shown that to be a lie. Call me industrially naieve at the time.
As to this:
The problem with past events are that they have an irreversible effect on the future. You can't sweep history under the carpet and expect to start afresh to confront the brave new industrial world. What has occured can be paralleled to the 'beaten dog syndrome'.
Whether it was yesterday or a decade ago, people have long memories and there are still people within your organisation who orchestrated these past events.
Whether it was yesterday or a decade ago, people have long memories and there are still people within your organisation who orchestrated these past events.
Those who fail to learn the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them. I couldn't agree more. However those who continue to look to the past fail to see the future passing them by.....or as my mother put it the other day, 'the longer you look backward over your shoulder, the closer you are to walking into oncoming traffic'.
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KABOY et al
please don't tar the present AIPA with the same tar brush used by AIPA of old.
Have a look at the present "Group Opportunity List" that is presently being proposed by the new AIPA team.
Is it any wonder That the powers to be ,will not entertain this concept, yet.
Geez can't have these pilot people actually working together ,from an industrial perspective.
Look what happened to pilots the last time they worked together as one industrial entity,that's right, pilots pay and conditions in this country for close to 40+ years made piloting a "profession" that people where willing to risk a large sum of money in order to obtain a licence ,and then hopefully after many years of hard work get a decent job in an Airline with reasonable pay and conditions.Or conversely do the hard yards in the military and enter an airline from that stream.
What do we have now?
Management playing one pilot group off against another ,creating a race to the point where we all disappear up our own fundamental orifices .
One does not have to be Einstein to work out where this will all lead to.
Why would a kid and his or her family risk 10's of thousands of dollars to get a qualification that will earn the budding pilot less than what a train driver earns with absolutely no job security to boot?
Is it any wonder there is a looming shortage?
Bring on AusALPA I say and lets get back to building a career path of choice not subsistence.
Let's actually create some "choice" out there!
please don't tar the present AIPA with the same tar brush used by AIPA of old.
Have a look at the present "Group Opportunity List" that is presently being proposed by the new AIPA team.
Is it any wonder That the powers to be ,will not entertain this concept, yet.
Geez can't have these pilot people actually working together ,from an industrial perspective.
Look what happened to pilots the last time they worked together as one industrial entity,that's right, pilots pay and conditions in this country for close to 40+ years made piloting a "profession" that people where willing to risk a large sum of money in order to obtain a licence ,and then hopefully after many years of hard work get a decent job in an Airline with reasonable pay and conditions.Or conversely do the hard yards in the military and enter an airline from that stream.
What do we have now?
Management playing one pilot group off against another ,creating a race to the point where we all disappear up our own fundamental orifices .
One does not have to be Einstein to work out where this will all lead to.
Why would a kid and his or her family risk 10's of thousands of dollars to get a qualification that will earn the budding pilot less than what a train driver earns with absolutely no job security to boot?
Is it any wonder there is a looming shortage?
Bring on AusALPA I say and lets get back to building a career path of choice not subsistence.
Let's actually create some "choice" out there!
Max,
I am not tarring the current AIPA with the same brush of old.What I am saying is that every member must look at recent events. No current member of AIPA want to be accountable for events six years ago. I stress member, not COM member!
Six years ago AN collapsed, Impulse was aquired, QF experienced unprecedented growth while other airlines were hitting the wall or downsizing their fleets to grapple with the cash crisis they were experiencing. Pilots joining QF or receiving upgrades within QF saw a bright horizon; what I saw was the beginning of an industrial war being launched in the back rooms of QF, I was in the middle of it. I tried to point this out to various QF people who were all AIPA members. Nobody wanted to listen as their careers were progressing well, times have now changed wouldn't you say?
In order to be unified you have to now justify why we need to be, not because you are now being dealt the same hand that some other subsidiary pilots felt five years ago. Your careers are under threat that is obvious, put forward a convincing case that doesn't just serve your own cause!
I am not tarring the current AIPA with the same brush of old.What I am saying is that every member must look at recent events. No current member of AIPA want to be accountable for events six years ago. I stress member, not COM member!
Six years ago AN collapsed, Impulse was aquired, QF experienced unprecedented growth while other airlines were hitting the wall or downsizing their fleets to grapple with the cash crisis they were experiencing. Pilots joining QF or receiving upgrades within QF saw a bright horizon; what I saw was the beginning of an industrial war being launched in the back rooms of QF, I was in the middle of it. I tried to point this out to various QF people who were all AIPA members. Nobody wanted to listen as their careers were progressing well, times have now changed wouldn't you say?
In order to be unified you have to now justify why we need to be, not because you are now being dealt the same hand that some other subsidiary pilots felt five years ago. Your careers are under threat that is obvious, put forward a convincing case that doesn't just serve your own cause!
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Relax Keg, its nothing personal...its just aviation 
Lets go through this slowly...
OK, what logic is it that I cannot follow, the only logic I see in your discussion is that the great unwashed have rattled your cage and all that stuff they told about how you are the best may have been lies...I mean good grief someone else is gonna fly overseas from Aus...Oh dear, Reggie have you heard the news !!
I may be wrong but I tend to think that if you need to quote someone who you 'think' is a Virgin pilot to support your argument I will wait for further evidence as there definitely never was any evident in the outside world.
If you were a long time QF employee you would be a 744 Capt with a son who is about to get his Royal golf club membership and his QF seniority number for his birthday.
Existing SO's may be able to lay claim to that title in years to come, as FO's if they get lucky.
My (delusions) comments are based on the fact that I have never heard of any statements either first or second hand that ever gave any indication of any signs of unity by QF drivers with any group outside QF, quite the opposite in fact.
They certainly were talking about it, but for exactly the opposite reasons to the proposal that you are trying to defend.
In typical fashion (as expected), any statement that may resemble reality is responded to by a derogatory comment.
That says it all really
Ahab
Lets go through this slowly...
Given that you can't follow the logic Ahab let me spell it out for you nice and simple.
YOU made the point that unity is something that QF crew have only gotten into in the last 18 months.I disagree entirely with that prospect and that QF drivers for a considerably longer time than that have believed in unity. As an example I quoted Dehavilanddriver, who I have always understood to be a Virgin Pilot, making the point that we should be all working together.
Now here is where your logic fails you. Me, as a long time QF employee agreed with that statement. Therefore your delusions about it only being on QF drivers minds in the last 18 months are just that. As my quotes show, a QF driver was talking unity three years ago.
Existing SO's may be able to lay claim to that title in years to come, as FO's if they get lucky.
My (delusions) comments are based on the fact that I have never heard of any statements either first or second hand that ever gave any indication of any signs of unity by QF drivers with any group outside QF, quite the opposite in fact.
Were the forums able to search back to May 2001 and I reckon you'd find QF drivers talking about unity of the QF pilot group back then when we first bought Impulse. If you go back earlier than that then again I reckon you'll find QF drivers talking about a unified pilot group at earlier times.
So bang on all you like but the reality is that most QF drivers know the history. I'm just determined that your delusional ramblings don't go uncorrected.
That says it all really
Ahab
Nunc est bibendum
Thread Starter
Geez, one more time for the slow learners.
You state that QF drivers didn't want to know about anyone else until 18 months ago. I provide direct evidence of QF driver(s) (specifically the one who started this thread who your original comments appear to disparage) wanting to hook up with other pilot groups THREE years ago. Therefore you're point is wrong. As I've previously said a search of the forums before that time would show similar evidence from more than just me. You'll also find many QF drivers backing the same call and widely disparaging the small minority of QF drivers who are insular and believe in only looking after themselves.
One other minor issue. How long does it take to be considered 'long serving'. I've been a QF employee for more than 12 years. I figure I can call myself a 'long serving' employee because I have 108 days of 'long service leave' in my leave bank. The law says I'm 'long serving' and therefore on that point too you are wrong. Nice to see though that we get caught up in side issues as to whether 12 years is considered long service or not. (I acknowledge the ADF consider 'long service' to be 15 years! ).
My comments here on this thread. My comments three years ago. First hand. Perhaps you need to read better. If you're not delusion making the above comment then what are you? That's right. Wrong!
Done and dusted. Good night. (Thanks for the giggle though. Always funny coming across people like you!)
You state that QF drivers didn't want to know about anyone else until 18 months ago. I provide direct evidence of QF driver(s) (specifically the one who started this thread who your original comments appear to disparage) wanting to hook up with other pilot groups THREE years ago. Therefore you're point is wrong. As I've previously said a search of the forums before that time would show similar evidence from more than just me. You'll also find many QF drivers backing the same call and widely disparaging the small minority of QF drivers who are insular and believe in only looking after themselves.
One other minor issue. How long does it take to be considered 'long serving'. I've been a QF employee for more than 12 years. I figure I can call myself a 'long serving' employee because I have 108 days of 'long service leave' in my leave bank. The law says I'm 'long serving' and therefore on that point too you are wrong. Nice to see though that we get caught up in side issues as to whether 12 years is considered long service or not. (I acknowledge the ADF consider 'long service' to be 15 years!
).
My (delusions) comments are based on the fact that I have never heard of any statements either first or second hand that ever gave any indication of any signs of unity by QF drivers with any group outside QF, quite the opposite in fact.
Done and dusted. Good night. (Thanks for the giggle though. Always funny coming across people like you!)
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My (delusions) comments are based on the fact that I have never heard of any statements either first or second hand that ever gave any indication of any signs of unity by QF drivers with any group outside QF, quite the opposite in fact.
Ah yes... the Group opportunity List...
Great idea (if not a tad slow in coming thanks to previous/old AIPA) but why is it that SO many of us seem to discount its possibility just because Geoff Dixon/John Borghetti/Chief Pilot say 'it will never happen'. It's spin, posturing and simply a negotiating position to try to achieve larger concessions through greater fear and uncertainty among all pilots.
We should be asking management to explain exactly why they refuse to entertain the idea? Why is it 'too expensive'? Time will tell how cost effective it is to keep hammering your staff when other companies are increasing salaries in order to be able to meet their expansion plans.
Yet again, I'm underwhelmed and DO NOT BELIEVE the pronouncements of QF management. Double-standards, arrogance and self interest continue to be the hallmarks of their style IMHO.
We should be asking management to explain exactly why they refuse to entertain the idea? Why is it 'too expensive'? Time will tell how cost effective it is to keep hammering your staff when other companies are increasing salaries in order to be able to meet their expansion plans.
Yet again, I'm underwhelmed and DO NOT BELIEVE the pronouncements of QF management. Double-standards, arrogance and self interest continue to be the hallmarks of their style IMHO.
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For many years I have been involved with both Award and EBA negotiations, as a representative of pilot groups and more recently as a pilot manager (sad but true).
Of all the aspects which make a good outcome hardest to achieve – for all concerned, the greatest is “INDIFFERENCE” to the process. It plays directly into a minimalist outcome and appearance of a disorganised fray.
Sadly with only a few pages directed to this topic and only a few respondents within it, it looks as though the same adage may apply.
As earlier mentioned, you have to start with the grass routes, and that is GA. The Airlines are really only just beginning to see the issues that have riddled GA for many years. You will have a lot of work ahead to turn the corner on this issue.
Of all the aspects which make a good outcome hardest to achieve – for all concerned, the greatest is “INDIFFERENCE” to the process. It plays directly into a minimalist outcome and appearance of a disorganised fray.
Sadly with only a few pages directed to this topic and only a few respondents within it, it looks as though the same adage may apply.
As earlier mentioned, you have to start with the grass routes, and that is GA. The Airlines are really only just beginning to see the issues that have riddled GA for many years. You will have a lot of work ahead to turn the corner on this issue.
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Quote Keg
Keg, outside of your previously protected cocoon there are many more of us...its dark and scary out here
Quote Pete Conrad
That sums it up eh.
Save your energy and the bandwidth Keg, I know your intentions are good (and I sincerely mean that) but as I hinted at earlier, don't go telling others what they should do until you guys can do it for yourselves.
Ahab
(Thanks for the giggle though. Always funny coming across people like you!)
Quote Pete Conrad
Keg...I believe the group list has been given a resounding NO from the higher beings. El kaputsky, niet, nein...NO.
Save your energy and the bandwidth Keg, I know your intentions are good (and I sincerely mean that) but as I hinted at earlier, don't go telling others what they should do until you guys can do it for yourselves.
Ahab