Unity
Nunc est bibendum
Thread Starter
Unity
This is the industrial circumstances as I see them at the moment.
DJ have just voted down their EBA. Back to the negotiating table.
QF Shorthaul have not even bothered to put their offer to a vote given that a pre-vote poll suggested it was going down in a big way. Back to the negotiating table.
Australian Wet lease have also done the same thing as QF short haul. Back to the the negotiating table for them as well.
QF long haul are now in an enterprise bargaining period. Sentiment is delicately poised but if the offers to QF s/h and AOWL are anything to go by then this one won't get any further.
NOW is the time for crew to be singing from the same philosophical song sheet. The question is how. Given that most things like this happen best from the 'grass roots' movements it was suggested on Qrewroom by a few line pilots that opening Qrewroom to DJ crew would be a good way of fostering that unity and gaining some transparency into the issues that are faced by the respective pilot groups. We already have some great contributions from those from Eastern, Sunnies, etc. The Qrewroom administrator stated this:
There is still a bit of water to flow under the bridge on this one to enable it to happen but it's a positive start of the sort of grass roots connections that Aussie crew should have.
Therefore I'd be interested to hear from DJ crew who are interested in whether this offer would be received favourably and possible ways that it could be progressed. My rep on PPRUNE is pretty well known and I'll treat any contact with the strictest confidentiality as per the directions of the respective person. I'm on a trip so if a DJ crew wanted to kick it over with me they'd have to skype me. Details via PM.
I'm not intending for this thread to re-hash what AIPA/AFAP/whoever have done in the past that wasn't good for the industry (AIPA leaving AFAP, '89, etc). We learn from those issues but blaming some 1.5-2.5 decades down the track doesn't serve much purpose. What I would like to see is the various pilots in this industry working together to reduce the spin of the various managements and reducing the times of being played off against each other due to lack of interaction.
It's time.
DJ have just voted down their EBA. Back to the negotiating table.
QF Shorthaul have not even bothered to put their offer to a vote given that a pre-vote poll suggested it was going down in a big way. Back to the negotiating table.
Australian Wet lease have also done the same thing as QF short haul. Back to the the negotiating table for them as well.
QF long haul are now in an enterprise bargaining period. Sentiment is delicately poised but if the offers to QF s/h and AOWL are anything to go by then this one won't get any further.
NOW is the time for crew to be singing from the same philosophical song sheet. The question is how. Given that most things like this happen best from the 'grass roots' movements it was suggested on Qrewroom by a few line pilots that opening Qrewroom to DJ crew would be a good way of fostering that unity and gaining some transparency into the issues that are faced by the respective pilot groups. We already have some great contributions from those from Eastern, Sunnies, etc. The Qrewroom administrator stated this:
I would invite the Virgin pilots to join Qrewroom, just like the Eastern, Sunstate, Jetstar and Jetconnect guys, if I had some means of verifying their identity.
Therefore I'd be interested to hear from DJ crew who are interested in whether this offer would be received favourably and possible ways that it could be progressed. My rep on PPRUNE is pretty well known and I'll treat any contact with the strictest confidentiality as per the directions of the respective person. I'm on a trip so if a DJ crew wanted to kick it over with me they'd have to skype me. Details via PM.
I'm not intending for this thread to re-hash what AIPA/AFAP/whoever have done in the past that wasn't good for the industry (AIPA leaving AFAP, '89, etc). We learn from those issues but blaming some 1.5-2.5 decades down the track doesn't serve much purpose. What I would like to see is the various pilots in this industry working together to reduce the spin of the various managements and reducing the times of being played off against each other due to lack of interaction.
It's time.
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Keg, could you roll me one of those and pass it over,,,,,, got a light ?.
One thing that is for certain, something drastic must happen to make Pilots stand together, i can not for the life of me imagine what would do it.
One thing that is for certain, something drastic must happen to make Pilots stand together, i can not for the life of me imagine what would do it.
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KEG some quotes from the DJ version of Qrewroom, which in were sparked from quotes posted from Qrewroom on thier site.
While many of us will be apt to say "who cares", when it comes to QF, I think you will find their positive support for us interesting.
One of their contributors reminds us of the unprecedence of voting down a union negotiated EBA. In another industry, this would probably spark an immediate vote of no confidence in the union negotiators and board (but I'll leave this one for you to think about?).
Read the transcript for what it's worth. Perhaps though, we are entering a generational change where personal differences including the hurt of 89 might be put behind us and pilots of all persuasions might unite again to protect our grand old profession
What a great post, I would hope it is the begining of some sort or amalgamation of AIPA and AFAP.
I am of the opinion that the AFAP totally miss-read the pilot body here at VB, and thought that we would simply ratify their crumby agreement.
I hope that some serious progress can be made towards joining forces with AIPA, and quite frankly, if the AFAP dont get something organised, I believe more and more pilots will seek representation elsewhere.
We are communicating with the administrators of both the QF and DJ websites and are hopeful of gaining some limited cross-access for those that are interested.
Getting some dialogue going between the pilot groups has to have some benefit. Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are there too so we begin to have a broad reach and its a bit more palatable than PPrune.
XXXX statesQuote:
Perhaps though, we are entering a generational change where personal differences including the hurt of 89 might be put behind us and pilots of all persuasions might unite again to protect our grand old profession.
Well said mate! All of us now need to look forward and concentrate on what can be changed. In some form or fashion the 3 airlines need to unite and bring some dignity back to the profession. It would nice to see some pride and happier faces rather than all the doom and gloom of recent. Easier said than done I'm sure; however the status quo will only lead us to an abyss of declining conditions.
Personally I think union negotiation is “old Australia!” We need to adapt to the times and better arm ourselves with the new tools of negotiation. AFAP seems unwilling to provide its members with such resources to date. I guess we could do nothing and hope the same old negations, using the AFAP, get us something better in a year. Perhaps a more proactive way forward would be to support the endeavor at ........
While many of us will be apt to say "who cares", when it comes to QF, I think you will find their positive support for us interesting.
One of their contributors reminds us of the unprecedence of voting down a union negotiated EBA. In another industry, this would probably spark an immediate vote of no confidence in the union negotiators and board (but I'll leave this one for you to think about?).
Read the transcript for what it's worth. Perhaps though, we are entering a generational change where personal differences including the hurt of 89 might be put behind us and pilots of all persuasions might unite again to protect our grand old profession
What a great post, I would hope it is the begining of some sort or amalgamation of AIPA and AFAP.
I am of the opinion that the AFAP totally miss-read the pilot body here at VB, and thought that we would simply ratify their crumby agreement.
I hope that some serious progress can be made towards joining forces with AIPA, and quite frankly, if the AFAP dont get something organised, I believe more and more pilots will seek representation elsewhere.
We are communicating with the administrators of both the QF and DJ websites and are hopeful of gaining some limited cross-access for those that are interested.
Getting some dialogue going between the pilot groups has to have some benefit. Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are there too so we begin to have a broad reach and its a bit more palatable than PPrune.
XXXX statesQuote:
Perhaps though, we are entering a generational change where personal differences including the hurt of 89 might be put behind us and pilots of all persuasions might unite again to protect our grand old profession.
Well said mate! All of us now need to look forward and concentrate on what can be changed. In some form or fashion the 3 airlines need to unite and bring some dignity back to the profession. It would nice to see some pride and happier faces rather than all the doom and gloom of recent. Easier said than done I'm sure; however the status quo will only lead us to an abyss of declining conditions.
Personally I think union negotiation is “old Australia!” We need to adapt to the times and better arm ourselves with the new tools of negotiation. AFAP seems unwilling to provide its members with such resources to date. I guess we could do nothing and hope the same old negations, using the AFAP, get us something better in a year. Perhaps a more proactive way forward would be to support the endeavor at ........
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I'm all for it.........it's going to be hard however, what we are dealing with is The chiefs's little plan to keep all the QF entities separate though. Do you really think the J* Chief is going to want his J* pilots being "infected" by QF pilots?
I take my hat off to the VB guys, if there was some way a strong united front could be presented then go for it....to date however, airline bosses have relied on threats and intimidation of base closures, loss of commands, and snatch and grab for work mentalities as was seen in the case of J*..........a classic case of we'll take the work, and bugger the rest of the pilot group.....beat that mentality out of the pilot groups and we may have a chance.
Again, well done VB guys....be nice to unite one day.
I take my hat off to the VB guys, if there was some way a strong united front could be presented then go for it....to date however, airline bosses have relied on threats and intimidation of base closures, loss of commands, and snatch and grab for work mentalities as was seen in the case of J*..........a classic case of we'll take the work, and bugger the rest of the pilot group.....beat that mentality out of the pilot groups and we may have a chance.
Again, well done VB guys....be nice to unite one day.
Last edited by Pete Conrad; 13th Jan 2007 at 23:13.
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Well its almost a certainty that our VB forum was the vehicle for establishing a broad debate on the EBA issue and ultimately resulted in a high majority NO vote. I can only say that a combined forum of parties with like interests will go a long way to erasing the 'them and us' fractions that exist between DJ, QF and Jetstar. For twenty years the airline pilots' "industry standard" conditions worldwide have been dictated by management types in a take it or leave it attitude. Its been a buyers market. One has to feel that the industry standard is about to be set by us again and rightly so. A combined forum will go a long way in establishing that unity and give us the means for meaningful discourse between pilot groups. In fact it will be the first and a necessary step towards common representation.
It's none of my business, as I'm not a member of either camp, but it would be great to see all you pilots working as one. It get's pretty depressing reading all the vitriole and spite on PPrune.
I do have experience in my particular aviation area where the management have thrived on the seperate staff groups beating themselves into submission ... it saves management a lot of time and energy.
We all KNOW that one united staff group has a greater chance of bringing about win-win change ... but we just can't get it together. There's just too much human nature involved.
Maybe you guys and gals can achieve the almost impossible. If you don't, well ... you'll be back where the rest of us are ... awaiting the next EBA with extreme trepidation.
I do have experience in my particular aviation area where the management have thrived on the seperate staff groups beating themselves into submission ... it saves management a lot of time and energy.
We all KNOW that one united staff group has a greater chance of bringing about win-win change ... but we just can't get it together. There's just too much human nature involved.
Maybe you guys and gals can achieve the almost impossible. If you don't, well ... you'll be back where the rest of us are ... awaiting the next EBA with extreme trepidation.
It's time.
You guys need to be aware that a repeat of 1989 is the most likely outcome of any industrial action. This is especially true whilst Howard is in government. I expect it would also be true under Rudd's "new labour". The time will come when unionism is again strong - not just in aviation - but I think that time is still at least 10 years away.
Keg, you outlined the extent of the opposition to the various offers being put to the various pilot groups.
I assume the pilots are knocking the offers back because the offers fall short of the pilot's expectations.
Question: In assessing the offers, are the pilots taking into account what the airlines (and industry) can afford or are the expectations based purely on what the pilot's would like?
This is a genuine question - please don't regard it as a wind up.
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Contrails03 & other VB drivers - I believe that the law allows the Virgin pilots via their pilot council to enter into a service agreement with any union they please. This of course includes AIPA and the TWU and allows you to rid yourself of the AFAP. Something you should get your pilot council to investigate.
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Great idea Mr. keg, there will be a few things required to bring it all together and I think it would be a wonderful thing to get the groups to work for a common cause.
Leadership? Where is it? Can the people with the type of smarts and balls needed for this sort of gig keep their heads down long enough not to get hammered by the various management goups.
A plan? This is a negotiation and there has to be a nice plan that has the redundancies that will be required if/when things turn weird. The plan needs to be solidly in the middle ground, not too militant or conservative with common goals that are workable and realistic.
Most importantly learn from history, keep it tight, address the divide before it occurs and be ready for whatever comes your way. You are in a powerful position make sure you stay that way by ensuring the people who need to be on side are, if you know what I mean.
Sorry if this comes across as industrial relations 101 but I'd like to see you people get this sorted.
Leadership? Where is it? Can the people with the type of smarts and balls needed for this sort of gig keep their heads down long enough not to get hammered by the various management goups.
A plan? This is a negotiation and there has to be a nice plan that has the redundancies that will be required if/when things turn weird. The plan needs to be solidly in the middle ground, not too militant or conservative with common goals that are workable and realistic.
Most importantly learn from history, keep it tight, address the divide before it occurs and be ready for whatever comes your way. You are in a powerful position make sure you stay that way by ensuring the people who need to be on side are, if you know what I mean.
Sorry if this comes across as industrial relations 101 but I'd like to see you people get this sorted.
Nunc est bibendum
Thread Starter
LHRT, Jet lag will do strange things to a bloke. My original post was one of them.
ROFLMAO. Great response NG!
Thanks to the rest for the responses.
Aircraft I'd respond with a long well thought out post but EVERY previous post you've made has been inane wind up crap. I'll make a few basic points and we'll see how this develops. Your questions do show a significant level of naiveté anyway.
1. '89 was a long time ago.
2. No one is talking strike action here (I reckon that Geoff Dixon would LOVE QF crew to take industrial action in the short term).
3. No one is talking about resigning- except those crew who are leaving to go elsewhere which is apparently seen by some in management as the sign of a 'healthy' company.
4. GD's bonus last year was more than a 3% payrise to the 600 plus shorthaul crew who were offered a zero per cent pay rise over the next four years. His equity stake if the buy out occurs would pay for those payrises for a couple of decades to come.
You tell me if the pilots expectations are unreasonable in that respect.
ROFLMAO. Great response NG!
Thanks to the rest for the responses.
Aircraft I'd respond with a long well thought out post but EVERY previous post you've made has been inane wind up crap. I'll make a few basic points and we'll see how this develops. Your questions do show a significant level of naiveté anyway.
1. '89 was a long time ago.
2. No one is talking strike action here (I reckon that Geoff Dixon would LOVE QF crew to take industrial action in the short term).
3. No one is talking about resigning- except those crew who are leaving to go elsewhere which is apparently seen by some in management as the sign of a 'healthy' company.
4. GD's bonus last year was more than a 3% payrise to the 600 plus shorthaul crew who were offered a zero per cent pay rise over the next four years. His equity stake if the buy out occurs would pay for those payrises for a couple of decades to come.
You tell me if the pilots expectations are unreasonable in that respect.
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And Aircraft if a basic CPI payrise is in excess of what the companies can afford then so be it let them go under. I'll be out of a job but hey its not that hard to get another. We are not paid to worry about their financial issues, thats what damn managers are for, and if you think otherwise then I need a bigger pay rise to take it on haha!!
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Question: In assessing the offers, are the pilots taking into account what the airlines (and industry) can afford or are the expectations based purely on what the pilot's would like?
Thank you for your serious question.
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Keg
I reckon you are on the right track here, but a word of caution. Don't mention GD's bonus in relation to what you guys deserve ever again. The two have nothing in common. By critisizing GD's pay you are being critical of the shareholders whom GD works for and who vote for his bonus. The boyout fee is a separate issue. The point is, your worth has no relevance to his paypacket. Don't even get into the argument. He is paid to deliver results to shareholders. That means the less you get, the more he gets. He is doing his job, and doing it well, from a shareholder point of view. What you now need to do is convince the shareholders that you are worth what you believe you are.
V
I reckon you are on the right track here, but a word of caution. Don't mention GD's bonus in relation to what you guys deserve ever again. The two have nothing in common. By critisizing GD's pay you are being critical of the shareholders whom GD works for and who vote for his bonus. The boyout fee is a separate issue. The point is, your worth has no relevance to his paypacket. Don't even get into the argument. He is paid to deliver results to shareholders. That means the less you get, the more he gets. He is doing his job, and doing it well, from a shareholder point of view. What you now need to do is convince the shareholders that you are worth what you believe you are.
V
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To Virgin Pilots,
Congratulations and best of luck.
To Keg,
Well done. Based on the bars I go to I think that your comments of the last few months have reflected the mood of the QF mainline pilots precisely, none more so than on this issue – Unity.
To Vorsicht,
Although I agree that GD’s pay is not the main argument, it is, however, a valid point of comparison when the company (via the CFO) has been in the press essentially saying pilots are overpaid. There is one group in QF that are overpaid and it ain’t the Pilots – have you seen the comparison of QF management wages to those of other airlines…….. an eye opener!
They (the CEO and CFO) have the gall to imply pilots are greedy for wanting a less than CPI payrise when they both got a one off bonus just for signing a new contract that would pay for these pay rises and then some - $10 Million dollars between two guys! (BTW – this one off bonus was unilaterally approved by the board and therefore not signed off by shareholders).
The public are getting sick and tired of corporate greed and the taking of massive bonuses whilst employees get zip!
Congratulations and best of luck.
To Keg,
Well done. Based on the bars I go to I think that your comments of the last few months have reflected the mood of the QF mainline pilots precisely, none more so than on this issue – Unity.
To Vorsicht,
Although I agree that GD’s pay is not the main argument, it is, however, a valid point of comparison when the company (via the CFO) has been in the press essentially saying pilots are overpaid. There is one group in QF that are overpaid and it ain’t the Pilots – have you seen the comparison of QF management wages to those of other airlines…….. an eye opener!
They (the CEO and CFO) have the gall to imply pilots are greedy for wanting a less than CPI payrise when they both got a one off bonus just for signing a new contract that would pay for these pay rises and then some - $10 Million dollars between two guys! (BTW – this one off bonus was unilaterally approved by the board and therefore not signed off by shareholders).
The public are getting sick and tired of corporate greed and the taking of massive bonuses whilst employees get zip!
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speeedy
you may be right re the shareholders getting sick of corporate greed, but it still has nothing to do with your pay. Your case will stand on its own merits. If the shareholders get sick of GD they will vote him out, but rest assured, regardless of the salary a new CEO will be on, he will also be trying to keep your salaries down. Management pay is largely irrelevant, other than to prove that they dont really think the company is in financial difficulty. Play the ball not the man.
V
V
I understand how much ill-feeling and caution still lingers following the events of '89
but considering that there are now many of us in the industry who were in primary school (if even that) at the time and the way our profession appears to be heading I cannot support this move strongly enough.I truly believe that as a result of a growing number of reasons, many discussed here, Australian operators (the spectrum, from GA to turboprop RPT, to long haul RPT) will soon be faced with a serious lack of qualified applicants. This can only be good for all of us and (cue stirring background music) if we can manage to stand as a united group of professionals I do think we can turn our fortunes around.
The formation of a joint Australian professional pilots' forum (as opposed to a rumour network) is certainly a step in the right direction. The sooner we can all speak openly amongst ourselves, regardless of our backgrounds, the better we'll all fare.
Count me in!
Last edited by Bug Smasher Smasher; 31st Jan 2007 at 06:22.
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less talk more action.
Good on the guys at VB for sticking together. As we all need to unite as professionals we have to try and support guys who are in need. The recent pay cuts in NJ were not a good indicator of things to come however remember the supply and demand the tide is turning. Make sure you encourage guys on the way up to stand up for there pay rates and conditions because if they can't survive they will get hungry and eat those above them. Most GA operators don't go broke because of paying pilots too much but many go broke. Remember that a good pilot with good decision making can save thousands in a simple diversion or change of flight levels so management can show appreciation for zero hull losses and happy passengers with a percentage of the profit. Time to remember we are all in it together what ever the logo on the tail.