Qantas passes baton to Jetstar
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wow... you can really tell the guys that still have a chip on their shoulder bout not making the cut.... 
oh well at least some will let them pay their way into a job.
Of course they never applied because of how stuck up etc QF pilots are...
most of us are good blokes just getting on with the job... as i suspect most of the J* and VB guys are too.
i guess some are just too slow to realise that if the QF guys get knocked off their perch the upward pressure on their own wages will vanish.
When this all started the general opinion was that J* and VB were grossly underpaid. Now their seems to be a push to make it look as though the QF guys are grossly overpaid and the fools with the inferiority complex are helping to push that idea.
I can just see it now.... J* pilots refuse paycut and slash wages by 25 % becuase they believe they make too much.
Or is overpaid defined as anyone who gets more than you do.
Wake up... although were not exactly on the same side we do have enough common interest to NOT work against each other. Wouldnt it be more sensible for you guys to be saying... Well actually the QF scale is about right... we should be where they are. It would work for all of us... you guys have a push for higher pay and we take some of the pressure of our pay to go down.
For all managements talk about concern for the long term viability of our respective companies how many of them are facing a pay cut?
But unfortunately some are more interested in carrying on vendetta's becuase they have wounded ego's. I suspect these are the guys who continually let everyone know how good they are and what they do.
oh well at least some will let them pay their way into a job. Of course they never applied because of how stuck up etc QF pilots are...
most of us are good blokes just getting on with the job... as i suspect most of the J* and VB guys are too.
i guess some are just too slow to realise that if the QF guys get knocked off their perch the upward pressure on their own wages will vanish.
When this all started the general opinion was that J* and VB were grossly underpaid. Now their seems to be a push to make it look as though the QF guys are grossly overpaid and the fools with the inferiority complex are helping to push that idea.
I can just see it now.... J* pilots refuse paycut and slash wages by 25 % becuase they believe they make too much.
Or is overpaid defined as anyone who gets more than you do.
Wake up... although were not exactly on the same side we do have enough common interest to NOT work against each other. Wouldnt it be more sensible for you guys to be saying... Well actually the QF scale is about right... we should be where they are. It would work for all of us... you guys have a push for higher pay and we take some of the pressure of our pay to go down.
For all managements talk about concern for the long term viability of our respective companies how many of them are facing a pay cut?
But unfortunately some are more interested in carrying on vendetta's becuase they have wounded ego's. I suspect these are the guys who continually let everyone know how good they are and what they do.
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Sounds to me like One Hung wants others to do the dirty work for him while he sits safely in his "sheltered workshop".
Sacrifice the J* guys like pawns but, tell them there will be something in it for them.
Say there was a joint effort.
How about a real joint effort.....say.... integration by similar seniority numbers?
You know what I mean ...No 1 at QF, followed by No1 at J*;
No 2 at QF followed by No2 at J* ,and so on.
Haarumfff! is the call from the QF masses.
Unthinkable,after all,they never made the "cut".
There are plenty of pethetic losers in QF. Plenty of skeletons in that cupboard and obviously ( and this means you One Hung) .....
more than one "Warren."
Sacrifice the J* guys like pawns but, tell them there will be something in it for them.
Say there was a joint effort.
How about a real joint effort.....say.... integration by similar seniority numbers?
You know what I mean ...No 1 at QF, followed by No1 at J*;
No 2 at QF followed by No2 at J* ,and so on.
Haarumfff! is the call from the QF masses.
Unthinkable,after all,they never made the "cut".
There are plenty of pethetic losers in QF. Plenty of skeletons in that cupboard and obviously ( and this means you One Hung) .....
more than one "Warren."
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IT, you are just sh*t stirring and you know it.
Wun wing puts forward a very reasonable post and you respond with vitriol. Get the chip of your shoulder, it's making you a very small man.
A tie-up with the Jetstar pilots, via a Y list would be the way everyone wins here. With both parties having a vested interest in doing the best possible deal we could have J* pilots being paid the market rate and eventual access to mainline flying; and mainline FO's and SO's keeping some semblance of a career path.
How about we focus on that rather than yelling insults across the divide?
Wun wing puts forward a very reasonable post and you respond with vitriol. Get the chip of your shoulder, it's making you a very small man.
A tie-up with the Jetstar pilots, via a Y list would be the way everyone wins here. With both parties having a vested interest in doing the best possible deal we could have J* pilots being paid the market rate and eventual access to mainline flying; and mainline FO's and SO's keeping some semblance of a career path.
How about we focus on that rather than yelling insults across the divide?
Ok gentlemen time for a very deep breath all of you. For the record I don't work for Qantas, I am just a simple expat pilot making a living overseas, but here is my small take on all of this.
To all the Qantas pilots, stay focused and united you all work for a fantastic airline with a very proud and deserved history, but the jetstar pilots are just trying to survive, they have jumped from being cannon fodder to players and a lot of them still have there heads spinning, they are growing so fast they need help and guidance not ridicule.
To the Jetstar pilots, look you have to understand allot of what you say and write is very antagonistic especially to other pilots and not just Qantas pilots that are fighting for there careers, there are thousands of Australian expat pilots that are working overseas that would love to come home to a good job in a secure industry, please be very careful you are not just setting a new standard for Australian pilots but all future pilots who haven't even thought about becoming a pilot yet.
You may not know it but you are worth allot more than you think, listen to your Qantas piers you may just have the same ideals, you just don't know yet because of all the mud throwing.
I hope some of this makes sense, but I am not holding my breath
To all the Qantas pilots, stay focused and united you all work for a fantastic airline with a very proud and deserved history, but the jetstar pilots are just trying to survive, they have jumped from being cannon fodder to players and a lot of them still have there heads spinning, they are growing so fast they need help and guidance not ridicule.
To the Jetstar pilots, look you have to understand allot of what you say and write is very antagonistic especially to other pilots and not just Qantas pilots that are fighting for there careers, there are thousands of Australian expat pilots that are working overseas that would love to come home to a good job in a secure industry, please be very careful you are not just setting a new standard for Australian pilots but all future pilots who haven't even thought about becoming a pilot yet.
You may not know it but you are worth allot more than you think, listen to your Qantas piers you may just have the same ideals, you just don't know yet because of all the mud throwing.
I hope some of this makes sense, but I am not holding my breath
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I cannot for the life of me understand why everybody should be united under the one list Y or otherwise. Jetstar, Eastern etc are part of the QANTAS Group Yes, but they are seperate companies.
This will not fix the problem.
Another solution is needed. It has to encompase the entire aviation industry. I have no idea what the answer is. Possibly, what the doctors do - limit the numbers, set levels amongst themselves so that people can't under cut each other.
By doing something external (it is a form of independant self regulation) you can by-pass CEOs cutting wages, and you can by-pass those people prepared to undercut each other.
At the moment all this bitching between us, chips on shoulders and just plain stupidity will not help.
All we need is someone with the will and means to organise it.
This will not fix the problem.
Another solution is needed. It has to encompase the entire aviation industry. I have no idea what the answer is. Possibly, what the doctors do - limit the numbers, set levels amongst themselves so that people can't under cut each other.
By doing something external (it is a form of independant self regulation) you can by-pass CEOs cutting wages, and you can by-pass those people prepared to undercut each other.
At the moment all this bitching between us, chips on shoulders and just plain stupidity will not help.
All we need is someone with the will and means to organise it.
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Unfortunately Wun Wing Lo has summed the situation perfectly.
He thinks that everyone that is not at Qantas is less of a pilot than him and his colleagues. And because of this genetic inferiority, the non Qantas pilots should sacrifice their own career ambitions lest they have an impact on the lofty aspirations of the chosen ones at Q.
Why don't you guys do something constructive like invite all australian pilots to be part of your union. That way you could have some constructive dialogue on how to improve conditions for everyone.
Sorry, i forgot. Qantas guys dont want to improve conditions for everyone, they just want everyone else to suffer in order to protect their own conditions.
I also forgot that Qantas pilots cant even agree on what conditions are right for themselves let alone consider the position of the lesser individuals that "didn't make the cut".
Wun Wing, if only you knew how agressively average Qantas drivers are. And what that means is that they are the same as every other airline pilot group in the world. Average.
I would bet a years salary that any jetstar driver could slot into your seat and be doing just as good a job as you are. You are not special and that will be shown to you when your job is under threat and someone who "mised the cut" is flying your routes in a Jetstar aircraft, under the Qantas umbrella.
He thinks that everyone that is not at Qantas is less of a pilot than him and his colleagues. And because of this genetic inferiority, the non Qantas pilots should sacrifice their own career ambitions lest they have an impact on the lofty aspirations of the chosen ones at Q.
Why don't you guys do something constructive like invite all australian pilots to be part of your union. That way you could have some constructive dialogue on how to improve conditions for everyone.
Sorry, i forgot. Qantas guys dont want to improve conditions for everyone, they just want everyone else to suffer in order to protect their own conditions.
I also forgot that Qantas pilots cant even agree on what conditions are right for themselves let alone consider the position of the lesser individuals that "didn't make the cut".
Wun Wing, if only you knew how agressively average Qantas drivers are. And what that means is that they are the same as every other airline pilot group in the world. Average.
I would bet a years salary that any jetstar driver could slot into your seat and be doing just as good a job as you are. You are not special and that will be shown to you when your job is under threat and someone who "mised the cut" is flying your routes in a Jetstar aircraft, under the Qantas umbrella.
Vorsicht
I'm QF, I agree that QF recruiting don't have a monopoly on common sense, undoubtedly QF pilots have a spread of abilities like any other company, so I believe all Jetstar pilots should have been recruited to QF, then seconded to Jetstar if they wanted to go; after all, as an airline in the QF group, Jetstar is inextricably linked and synonymous with all those things the QF marketers love to sell. This 'separate airline' line rightly makes a mockery of the QF recruiting 'standard' in that when they find a pilot who will (or perhaps has to) do it for less, s/he suddenly meet the 'standard'. I say "ditch the navel-gazing etherial 'standard' and employ real, experienced, and qualified pilots to the Qantas group!" Having said that, I'd like to add that;
1. I reject the inference that we're inefficient! Most of my inefficiencies are driven by sales/marketing choices which send QF jets to far-flung places only 3 times per week... NOT due to my contract.
2. QF 737s can, and do, longer 'days' than Jetstar. With multi-sector short-hop days it's easier than for 7+ hour sectors and the similarly consumer-driven schedules in long-haul flying.
3. I aspire to a flying career, not a grinding roster routine which will take 5 years off my life if I try to keep it up for over 20 years. Why gloat about who can do more sectors/hours on back-to-back days without seeing your wife/kids/pets or sleeping in your own bed? and
4. Why gloat that you will do it for so much cheaper? I would have thought the better negotiating tactic would be to ask QF pilots (since most of you would know some and you appear to accept that their pay is higher) what their package is worth, and then undercut by say 5%, thereby STILL guaranteeing yourselves the jobs? THAT is what mystifies me, but hey, you've all got mortgages too.
Fly safe. I hope that, in time, we can all have reasonable access to ALL all jobs, and a chance ot take responsibility for & ownership of ALL the success and progression in the 'QF GROUP'. I hope that access will entail conditions for ALL pilots commensurate with a world-class airline, because we are all pilots who uphold the finest traditions of the Qantas 'brand' that management love to spruik about.
I encourage all Jetstar pilots to 're-value' UPWARDS your value and contribution to the QF group. It will help everyone, certainly not just mainline pilots, and not just yourselves. Think about it.
Cheers.
1. I reject the inference that we're inefficient! Most of my inefficiencies are driven by sales/marketing choices which send QF jets to far-flung places only 3 times per week... NOT due to my contract.
2. QF 737s can, and do, longer 'days' than Jetstar. With multi-sector short-hop days it's easier than for 7+ hour sectors and the similarly consumer-driven schedules in long-haul flying.
3. I aspire to a flying career, not a grinding roster routine which will take 5 years off my life if I try to keep it up for over 20 years. Why gloat about who can do more sectors/hours on back-to-back days without seeing your wife/kids/pets or sleeping in your own bed? and
4. Why gloat that you will do it for so much cheaper? I would have thought the better negotiating tactic would be to ask QF pilots (since most of you would know some and you appear to accept that their pay is higher) what their package is worth, and then undercut by say 5%, thereby STILL guaranteeing yourselves the jobs? THAT is what mystifies me, but hey, you've all got mortgages too.
Fly safe. I hope that, in time, we can all have reasonable access to ALL all jobs, and a chance ot take responsibility for & ownership of ALL the success and progression in the 'QF GROUP'. I hope that access will entail conditions for ALL pilots commensurate with a world-class airline, because we are all pilots who uphold the finest traditions of the Qantas 'brand' that management love to spruik about.
I encourage all Jetstar pilots to 're-value' UPWARDS your value and contribution to the QF group. It will help everyone, certainly not just mainline pilots, and not just yourselves. Think about it.
Cheers.
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Cutest of the Borg.
Just as I thought.
When threatened QF types go for the "Y" list.
The one they used with Australian.
The one that gives them the control, sorry, a semblance of a career progression for F/Os and S/Os. No talk of QF Captain's careers being effected because they expect to be protected.
Ploy # 2 is: promise a few pieces of silver to those you consider to be beggars. Give them something to hope for as they go and face the lions while you sit on your f-t ar-es.
Call me a little man? Geezz!
You guys have no B-lls at all.
Only a one line integration is true unity.
Go ahead and keep them separate ,and the only semblance of a career you will have in Aust is the dust that settles when all is lost .
J* conditions will improve once they have expanded with enough aircraft to compete directly with QF, if required due industrial action.
They don't have to do a thing except go to work and do their job
Just as I thought.
When threatened QF types go for the "Y" list.
The one they used with Australian.
The one that gives them the control, sorry, a semblance of a career progression for F/Os and S/Os. No talk of QF Captain's careers being effected because they expect to be protected.
Ploy # 2 is: promise a few pieces of silver to those you consider to be beggars. Give them something to hope for as they go and face the lions while you sit on your f-t ar-es.
Call me a little man? Geezz!
You guys have no B-lls at all.
Only a one line integration is true unity.
Go ahead and keep them separate ,and the only semblance of a career you will have in Aust is the dust that settles when all is lost .
J* conditions will improve once they have expanded with enough aircraft to compete directly with QF, if required due industrial action.
They don't have to do a thing except go to work and do their job
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Dare I point it out. If the mainline head up the a$$ mentality hadnt been so prominent at the start of the Qantaslink days, this situation would not have ever developed.
The sad arrogance of a few with the "F#*k them " we are better than every one else ilk has made it alot more difficult for many good S/Os and F/Os.
Wun Wing Lo, Id be guessing youd be the poster boy for the non hard yards, ive never been in GA or the millitary crowd.
Ironically, if you take a step back ( and an anger management course) you could most likely see that this end result had been pre orgasnised by the powers to be. "Instant Division. Just add attitudes, misconceptions and intollerance".
DM
The sad arrogance of a few with the "F#*k them " we are better than every one else ilk has made it alot more difficult for many good S/Os and F/Os.
Wun Wing Lo, Id be guessing youd be the poster boy for the non hard yards, ive never been in GA or the millitary crowd.
Ironically, if you take a step back ( and an anger management course) you could most likely see that this end result had been pre orgasnised by the powers to be. "Instant Division. Just add attitudes, misconceptions and intollerance".
DM
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Jetsbest
Once again you have demonstrated a lack of understanding of your position.
I am not gloating about anything, i am telling you the reality of aviation outside of the sheltered workshop that you have grown up with.
I would rather have your contract than mine, but i know that isn't going to happen, and i know that yours isn't going to last. The reason i know this, is because i know what your competitors are doing. I am one of them.
Yes, your 737 and 767 guys do work hard, and you can expect that everyone in mainline will work that hard one day if they hope to retain their salaries. You should ask yourself why they are working hard. You probably don't remember, but before the dispute Qantas was only an international airline.
You can't escape the implication that if Qantas had supported (or never split from) the other union then you wouldn't be facing this situation yet. I say yet, because it is inevitiable.
I think you are absolutely right about how J* pilots should have been recruited, but you guys just rolled over, and now the cat is out of the bag.
I can assure you that you are inefficient. I have many QF mates who have regaled me with their stories of how they have travelled backwards and forwards between London and Singapore or Bangkok on the double shuttle as S/O's in first class.
That says it all. Either way it is bad. If the union insists on First Class travel for S/O's then the problem is self explanatory. If on the other hand it is a space available issue, then that is equally concerning if you consistently have spare First Class seats available.
Tell everyone about the Pacific Barons and their overtime and conclude that's efficient. I'm sure that you will come up with some formula to prove it is saving the company money, but the reality is that a pilots in my airline wont get a cent extra for doing those routes. That means they can sell tickets at cheaper prices.
How many of your long haul drivers are doing in excess of 90 stick hrs a month. Hundreds of the guys in my airline are, month after month. Do you still think your long haul guys are efficient. You may be right that a lot of the inefficiency comes from the schedule. But it is still inefficient, and makes it difficult to compete.
It is market forces my friend. Hopefully what appears to be a severe shortage of experienced pilots will manifest itself in higher salaries for everyone, and you guys will be able to maintain or even improve your conditions. But my money is on the airlines dumbing down the cockpit such that they will be able to recruit any idiot to do our job, for half the salary of a J* driver.
It seems that Bob Hawke may have been a visionary when he called us "glorified bus drivers". But i have to say, after 25 years in this industry, I think he was right.
I am not gloating about anything, i am telling you the reality of aviation outside of the sheltered workshop that you have grown up with.
I would rather have your contract than mine, but i know that isn't going to happen, and i know that yours isn't going to last. The reason i know this, is because i know what your competitors are doing. I am one of them.
Yes, your 737 and 767 guys do work hard, and you can expect that everyone in mainline will work that hard one day if they hope to retain their salaries. You should ask yourself why they are working hard. You probably don't remember, but before the dispute Qantas was only an international airline.
You can't escape the implication that if Qantas had supported (or never split from) the other union then you wouldn't be facing this situation yet. I say yet, because it is inevitiable.
I think you are absolutely right about how J* pilots should have been recruited, but you guys just rolled over, and now the cat is out of the bag.
I can assure you that you are inefficient. I have many QF mates who have regaled me with their stories of how they have travelled backwards and forwards between London and Singapore or Bangkok on the double shuttle as S/O's in first class.
That says it all. Either way it is bad. If the union insists on First Class travel for S/O's then the problem is self explanatory. If on the other hand it is a space available issue, then that is equally concerning if you consistently have spare First Class seats available.
Tell everyone about the Pacific Barons and their overtime and conclude that's efficient. I'm sure that you will come up with some formula to prove it is saving the company money, but the reality is that a pilots in my airline wont get a cent extra for doing those routes. That means they can sell tickets at cheaper prices.
How many of your long haul drivers are doing in excess of 90 stick hrs a month. Hundreds of the guys in my airline are, month after month. Do you still think your long haul guys are efficient. You may be right that a lot of the inefficiency comes from the schedule. But it is still inefficient, and makes it difficult to compete.
It is market forces my friend. Hopefully what appears to be a severe shortage of experienced pilots will manifest itself in higher salaries for everyone, and you guys will be able to maintain or even improve your conditions. But my money is on the airlines dumbing down the cockpit such that they will be able to recruit any idiot to do our job, for half the salary of a J* driver.
It seems that Bob Hawke may have been a visionary when he called us "glorified bus drivers". But i have to say, after 25 years in this industry, I think he was right.
Vorsicht. You do not know of what you speak. QF SO's pax on extremely rare occasions internationally, and do not pax at all on double shuttles, fact checking required methinks. Second, what crew compliment do you run in your airline for ULH? 2 CAPT, 2 FO or CAPT, 2 FO, 1 SO or CAPT, FO, 2 SO. Lets have some facts to balance this debate, then the truth of your statements can be tested.
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Certainly stand to be corrected. I am only repeating what i have been told by Qantas pilots. Just goes to show they may be somewhat prone to exageration.
Up to 1 hours duty (duty being 1 hr before STD to chocks on, i.e 11hrs stick) we have two pilots with some minor variations for number of sectors and time of flight. Over that we have 2 Capt 1F/O. On some flights i believe we have 2 capt and 2 f/o, but that is only because the second crew operate a shuttle the next day.
I don't operate ULH so the above may some small errors but basically correct.
Up to 1 hours duty (duty being 1 hr before STD to chocks on, i.e 11hrs stick) we have two pilots with some minor variations for number of sectors and time of flight. Over that we have 2 Capt 1F/O. On some flights i believe we have 2 capt and 2 f/o, but that is only because the second crew operate a shuttle the next day.
I don't operate ULH so the above may some small errors but basically correct.
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Vorsicht again you seem to take everything so personally... from one post you instantly know what i think and what my background is.... what is amusing is how wrong you actually are.
However wether i am cadet, military or ga is unimportant. I love how people tend think these things are important when they can't think of anything to counter reasoned argument.
Airlines have operated for years paying these salaries. Like most things what is happening in the airline industry is happening in the general population.. Comapanies are looking to raise profits and for most CEO's the instant solution is to cut costs.
Look at the current industrial relations laws.
What are you claiming that all or most pilots who work for QF are lazy inefficient and elitist. You seem to know what the attitude is of the average QF pilot. This sort of stereotype is nothing short of usual crap piled on any group.
Dont you worry if you were ever involved an industrial dispute the public would not be seeing you as the little aussie battler. But an overpaid glorified bus driver, as they would us.
And you seem to be so knowledgable on the skill level of the QF drivers and seem to imply that i am not. How many QF guys have you flown with then?
As to my rather inflamatry remark on making the cut.... I am kind of amazed more people weren't set off by it... I guess most saw it for what it was ... ok a few may have crashed and burned in the interview .... but just becuase you didnt get in dont make you any better or worse that the guys who did get in... just not as competitive as those you were up against on that day when measured against what QF were looking for. Yes there is nepotism, cadets who think they know it all, air force guys who think they know it all, obnoxious GA guys etc. The point I was trying to make is that for whatever reason, a few of these guys who didnt get in are making it their mission to attack QF and its employees at every opportunity.
Oh and I love the cliche's your ilk like to post.... sheltered workshop? Sheltered from what and by whom? .... doing the "hard yards" ... the problem with that is there is always someone who has done it harder than you.. sounds like a good VB ad tho.... i mean the beer.... are you going to step aside when someone proves they did it harder.
One to One integration ... your dreamin' arent you.... i am just estimating here but on that proposal just about ever J* driver would end up in the top half or third of that list. And your giving others lectures about taking shortcuts and not doing the hard yards. How about all the Eastern guys go one for one through your seniority first... hey?
For all your crap about helping out the GA guy... how many proposals have you put forward to your management to hand your job over to someone in GA?
I think your confused .... are you an employee, a shareholder or the CEO? Why dont you live at home with mum and dad and work for free... then they could sell the tickets real cheap.... ah now i get it your really a passeneger.
Price elasticity is what determines how much is charged and competition. Simple excercise... have a look at any given day at the airlines respective sites and compare what tickets sell for. and who is sold out.
As for duty times i think it strange that someone who only hears second hand griping thinks they know all about long haul flying. You seem to think that working flat out day in and day out is efficient. I would call it dangerous. There is an added element of flying across large time zones and CAO 48 limits arent the only consideration. There is a project under way that is going to quantify it.
And before you get too smug it doesnt take much for dramatic change to occur in this industry... Look at the other LCC Australian... how is seniority going to go when you take them over?
But I guess all of this is a waste of time... becuase you know everything about everything and if you hear something you dont like you put your hands over your ears, close your eyes and stamp your feet chanting how awful QF is.
However wether i am cadet, military or ga is unimportant. I love how people tend think these things are important when they can't think of anything to counter reasoned argument.
Airlines have operated for years paying these salaries. Like most things what is happening in the airline industry is happening in the general population.. Comapanies are looking to raise profits and for most CEO's the instant solution is to cut costs.
Look at the current industrial relations laws.
What are you claiming that all or most pilots who work for QF are lazy inefficient and elitist. You seem to know what the attitude is of the average QF pilot. This sort of stereotype is nothing short of usual crap piled on any group.
Dont you worry if you were ever involved an industrial dispute the public would not be seeing you as the little aussie battler. But an overpaid glorified bus driver, as they would us.
And you seem to be so knowledgable on the skill level of the QF drivers and seem to imply that i am not. How many QF guys have you flown with then?
As to my rather inflamatry remark on making the cut.... I am kind of amazed more people weren't set off by it... I guess most saw it for what it was ... ok a few may have crashed and burned in the interview .... but just becuase you didnt get in dont make you any better or worse that the guys who did get in... just not as competitive as those you were up against on that day when measured against what QF were looking for. Yes there is nepotism, cadets who think they know it all, air force guys who think they know it all, obnoxious GA guys etc. The point I was trying to make is that for whatever reason, a few of these guys who didnt get in are making it their mission to attack QF and its employees at every opportunity.
Oh and I love the cliche's your ilk like to post.... sheltered workshop? Sheltered from what and by whom? .... doing the "hard yards" ... the problem with that is there is always someone who has done it harder than you.. sounds like a good VB ad tho.... i mean the beer.... are you going to step aside when someone proves they did it harder.
One to One integration ... your dreamin' arent you.... i am just estimating here but on that proposal just about ever J* driver would end up in the top half or third of that list. And your giving others lectures about taking shortcuts and not doing the hard yards. How about all the Eastern guys go one for one through your seniority first... hey?
For all your crap about helping out the GA guy... how many proposals have you put forward to your management to hand your job over to someone in GA?
I think your confused .... are you an employee, a shareholder or the CEO? Why dont you live at home with mum and dad and work for free... then they could sell the tickets real cheap.... ah now i get it your really a passeneger.
Price elasticity is what determines how much is charged and competition. Simple excercise... have a look at any given day at the airlines respective sites and compare what tickets sell for. and who is sold out.
As for duty times i think it strange that someone who only hears second hand griping thinks they know all about long haul flying. You seem to think that working flat out day in and day out is efficient. I would call it dangerous. There is an added element of flying across large time zones and CAO 48 limits arent the only consideration. There is a project under way that is going to quantify it.
And before you get too smug it doesnt take much for dramatic change to occur in this industry... Look at the other LCC Australian... how is seniority going to go when you take them over?
But I guess all of this is a waste of time... becuase you know everything about everything and if you hear something you dont like you put your hands over your ears, close your eyes and stamp your feet chanting how awful QF is.
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IT, you seem to have little idea on how a Y list works. The reason I said it would be primarily for F/O's and S/O's is that no QF Captain in his right mind would bid for a Jetstar command at the current rates.
So instead of getting narky, why don't you use that fabulous brain of yours?
Am I right in saying that current Jetstar pilots may not even be the ones being considered for the new airline. Before you guys start gloating, perhaps you should get that one squared away first, lest you end up like the VB guys.
Why should GD give you guys the guernsey if he can find some Kiwis on the breadline or will do it for even less?! What industrial power do you have to even make him look your way?
Of course I could be whistling in the wind here and the deal could be all sown up. How much do you trust GD given his track record on these things?
So instead of getting narky, why don't you use that fabulous brain of yours?
Am I right in saying that current Jetstar pilots may not even be the ones being considered for the new airline. Before you guys start gloating, perhaps you should get that one squared away first, lest you end up like the VB guys.
Why should GD give you guys the guernsey if he can find some Kiwis on the breadline or will do it for even less?! What industrial power do you have to even make him look your way?
Of course I could be whistling in the wind here and the deal could be all sown up. How much do you trust GD given his track record on these things?
Nunc est bibendum
How much do you trust GD given his track record on these things?
Some would call it poetic justice. I'd call it yet ANOTHER aviation industrial relations tragedy.
For the J* guys, I acknowledge now (as I did back then) that the gun was at your head when the A320 came along. If you didn't put forward a good case, your jobs were going- or at least to WA! That gun is NOT there now. You guys KNOW that you are crewing 24 A320s. For goodness sakes, at least realise the GREAT position you are in and if you're going to crew an aeroplane with double the number of seats, at least START with an ambit claim of double the money. You have NOTHING to lose.
Of course, you can take the sad and short sighted option that even a 10% pay rise from the A320 is more than what you are getting now and so why not take it!
Vorsicht
As this is my first post on the subject I fail to see how I have 'again' demonstrated a lack of understanding. To respond to some of your points;
You may not have my contract (which, by the way, I've been under for less than 10 years), but I ask again why you appear to gloat that you can go SO much lower? You've been ripped off, apparently fairly willingly!
S/Os pax around at the whim of the company.. the cheapest way possible given the balance of pilots available, surplus seat capacity, CAO duty limits, schedules etc. It is NOT guaranteed first class (until >5 yrs service) but is upgradeable. S/Os I know don't bid routinely for paxing.. it's just scheduled that way and the company needs the crew to places. How else would you propose they get there?
When your company forces you to sit in slip port for three days for no credit other than the stick time it took to get there, then talk to me about inefficiencies. I agree that sitting around is inefficient, but your barb should be directed a QF for the schedules. How is it a pilot's fault? Or are you suggesting that you would happily do 4 sectors in 7 days but because it amounted to only 17 stick hours (yep, I've done it!) you'd sign-on again for days 8-9 for another 15 hours just to be able to call yourself efficient? In my current roster I have 22 days off out of 56. Not bad you say? I also have something like 28 nights out of my own bed. Again, not bad you say? But it adds to the equation that even a jetstar pilot flying international WILL NOT be able to fly 90hrs/month. Are you going to 'efficiency' yourself out af a life for a salary which is unlikey to fairly compensate you AND illogically and naiively undercut some long-established work practices.
Don't get me wrong. There is room for improvement to QF pilot work practices. The pilots, both as individuals and AIPA, have participated in some good ideas and real gains with the company. BUT, in my view, apparently sensible proposals have often been bogged in the company bureacracy as much as pilot reticence.
In the overtime discussion we find common ground of sorts. It cuts in on very long single-duty periods. It also cuts in for 'heavy' roster period cumulative duty, much like what I believe happens in Jetstar. It was implemented for a reason many years ago, and variations have been negotiated since, but I agree it's not a perfect system. The bottom line is that 'if you don't do the duty, you don't get the overtime'. So when you start doing 30 stick hours (confirm you know you have the gig?) in two sectors in 3.5 days with 3/4 night, dubious onboard rest, no overtime and an 'inefficient' slip, have a little heart eh? I trust you'll be glad you revoked with pride some benchmark (historically considered fair & reasonable?) conditions, in the name of selling tickets cheaper, while you age faster and feel like C#@P for your 24 hours home before you do it all again. The company may thank you at your early retirement, but I doubt it.
Finally, you say 'I would rather have your contract than mine, but i know that isn't going to happen, and i know that yours isn't going to last'. You're right there, especially if you keep selling yourself SO short. I agree that 'convergence' is a very likely outcome, so let's aim for QF-5% rather than gloat over QF-50%. PLEASE? I'm not trying to steal your job, but I'd like ALL QF-group pilots to have a practical access to ALL QF-group flying. It would really help 'engagement' (QF's word, not mine) and company success. I don't know yet how to achieve it, but wouldn't Jetstar pilots enjoy the (eventaul) choice of a mainline job?
Obvouisly we'll have to agree to disagree on many things. I still don't believe you need to cut yourself (or others) so deeply and cheaply. Good luck with it all.
You may not have my contract (which, by the way, I've been under for less than 10 years), but I ask again why you appear to gloat that you can go SO much lower? You've been ripped off, apparently fairly willingly!
S/Os pax around at the whim of the company.. the cheapest way possible given the balance of pilots available, surplus seat capacity, CAO duty limits, schedules etc. It is NOT guaranteed first class (until >5 yrs service) but is upgradeable. S/Os I know don't bid routinely for paxing.. it's just scheduled that way and the company needs the crew to places. How else would you propose they get there?
When your company forces you to sit in slip port for three days for no credit other than the stick time it took to get there, then talk to me about inefficiencies. I agree that sitting around is inefficient, but your barb should be directed a QF for the schedules. How is it a pilot's fault? Or are you suggesting that you would happily do 4 sectors in 7 days but because it amounted to only 17 stick hours (yep, I've done it!) you'd sign-on again for days 8-9 for another 15 hours just to be able to call yourself efficient? In my current roster I have 22 days off out of 56. Not bad you say? I also have something like 28 nights out of my own bed. Again, not bad you say? But it adds to the equation that even a jetstar pilot flying international WILL NOT be able to fly 90hrs/month. Are you going to 'efficiency' yourself out af a life for a salary which is unlikey to fairly compensate you AND illogically and naiively undercut some long-established work practices.
Don't get me wrong. There is room for improvement to QF pilot work practices. The pilots, both as individuals and AIPA, have participated in some good ideas and real gains with the company. BUT, in my view, apparently sensible proposals have often been bogged in the company bureacracy as much as pilot reticence.
In the overtime discussion we find common ground of sorts. It cuts in on very long single-duty periods. It also cuts in for 'heavy' roster period cumulative duty, much like what I believe happens in Jetstar. It was implemented for a reason many years ago, and variations have been negotiated since, but I agree it's not a perfect system. The bottom line is that 'if you don't do the duty, you don't get the overtime'. So when you start doing 30 stick hours (confirm you know you have the gig?) in two sectors in 3.5 days with 3/4 night, dubious onboard rest, no overtime and an 'inefficient' slip, have a little heart eh? I trust you'll be glad you revoked with pride some benchmark (historically considered fair & reasonable?) conditions, in the name of selling tickets cheaper, while you age faster and feel like C#@P for your 24 hours home before you do it all again. The company may thank you at your early retirement, but I doubt it.
Finally, you say 'I would rather have your contract than mine, but i know that isn't going to happen, and i know that yours isn't going to last'. You're right there, especially if you keep selling yourself SO short. I agree that 'convergence' is a very likely outcome, so let's aim for QF-5% rather than gloat over QF-50%. PLEASE? I'm not trying to steal your job, but I'd like ALL QF-group pilots to have a practical access to ALL QF-group flying. It would really help 'engagement' (QF's word, not mine) and company success. I don't know yet how to achieve it, but wouldn't Jetstar pilots enjoy the (eventaul) choice of a mainline job?
Obvouisly we'll have to agree to disagree on many things. I still don't believe you need to cut yourself (or others) so deeply and cheaply. Good luck with it all.
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I believe that Qantas Long Haul crews are some of the cheapest around, the main reason that they only have one captain, one first officer and one or two second officers. I also know for a fact that quite a few of the second officer's on the 744 have been getting up to 900 hours on their 365 day limit without bidding for any extra flying. That's pretty efficient.