Qantas passes baton to Jetstar

[Chief Chook]

I believe that Qantas Long Haul crews are some of the cheapest around, the main reason that they only have one captain, one first officer and one or two second officers.

Couldn't that also mean they're amongst the most expen$ive?
If other airlines are crewing with 2 captains, and/or 2 first officers, then those combinations must be the same, or cheaper, than the qantas configuration.

I also know for a fact that quite a few of the second officer's on the 744 have been getting up to 900 hours on their 365 day limit without bidding for any extra flying. That's pretty efficient.

It's "pretty efficient" SCHEDULING by the roster clerks - NOTHING to do with pilot efficiency.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Hey Gonzo Chief Chook. I can't comment on costs as I don't know what they are but I guess if your employer doesn't have to pay income tax, I suppose that makes the opposition crew pretty cheap. It's also got everything to do with pilot efficiency from what I can see you goose. If they're flying maximum hours, why doesn't that have anything to do with pilot efficiency? Arrr, please explain??

[Chief Chook]

why doesn't that have anything to do with pilot efficiency?

For the simple reason that pilot "efficiency" cannot be measured by the number of hours a pilot flies in a week, month, or year - that is SOLELY a function of the crew scheduler - unless pilots are responsible for building their own rosters!
Because pilot X is rostered for, and flies, double the number of hours for which pilot Y is rostered, and flies, does that make pilot X a more "efficient" pilot?
It simply means that the SCHEDULING of pilot X has been more efficient for him, than for pilot Y.
Further, I could theoretically schedule pilot X and pilot Y for exactly the SAME schedules over a 12 month period, and have one (or the other) exceed his peer's flight time by 10 or 15%, so that one reaches maximum permissible hours and the other doesn't.
Are you still going to tell me that he who maxed out was "more efficent" than he who didn't?

Put your abuse back where you can control it, and argue realistically.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Keg you're usually the voice of reason amongst the drivel but this time I think a few facts are in order.

A 744 captain is flying probably 3+ times the seats of the baby bus and getting WAY LESS than double that of a Jet* captain....closer to 30% more. Yes I have good friends filling both seats....jet* crews demanding double the money for the 330 is just plane dumb.

For those of you whinging about the relative value of longhaul pilots and how someone is doing 900/yr long haul while someone else is only doing 600...and therefore 30% less efficient or comparing long haul to multi sector days of shorthaul...grow up you have no freaking idea of what you speak.

900 hrs a year of longhaul with min rest turn arounds...like a few mates of mine are doing at EK...is SHATTERING! FTLs are limits not targets, that's why it's not FTTs....but if you want to trust yourself to someone who maybe in no fit condition to be at the controls next time you go on holidays and base your travel purely on the cheapest ticket be my guest.

Only a newbie or a complete moron places no price on health, home life and job satisfaction in his employment or employees....given GD's age I guess he, and most CEOs and beancounters, fall in the latter category...they understand the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

The QF pilot group, the Jetstar pilot group and the VB pilot group and on infinitum are inseperable...each group has it's share of the broad spectrum of abilities and personalities...one group though...even the good guys there...deep down inside think they're better than all the rest....when you have it thoroughly worked out in your brains that it is NOT so you may have a fighting chance of uniting for everyone's betterment...until then you all deserve the abject derision that GD no doubt treats you with.

You are fools....allowing yourself to be distracted from the important goals by GD and his team....GD must go nearly spastic with hysterical laughter when the subject of pilot unity comes up.

[Dropt McGutz]

I think that what you'll find Chief Chook, is that the second officers rosters are all within five hours or less of each other in a 56 day roster period. The company tries to balance it out and from what I have heard, Mr. Boeing is correct. The only second officers whose hours aren't "up there" are those that have been on type for twelve months or less. I have to agree with EBD. I can't figure your statement out "It's "pretty efficient" SCHEDULING by the roster clerks - NOTHING to do with pilot efficiency." either. If the pilots can only do 900 stick hours by law, and they are, how isn't that pilot efficeincy?As for crew costs, I fail to see how for example, Nigel, Jeremy, James and Barnaby, who consist of two captains and two first officers, flying for British Airways, could possibly be cheaper than a Qantas crew.

[Keg]

G'day Chimbu. You're correct about the pay rates (which in itself is an interesting point!). I guess I was a little careless with the numbers I was using when I mentioned 'double' and 'ambit'. What I am saying that for the J* guys, if you ARE going to under cut, don't go your cost base plus 10%, go for our cost base minus 10%.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Interesting aint it Keg.

It would seem to me a relatively small pay differential as compared aircraft pax carrying ability (revenue generating ability)

Even more so when you consider yield comparisons.

I wouldn't mind betting the profit margin, % wise, is not so different between mainline and Jetstar....and yet Jetstar helps retain market share within the Qantas group rather than losing it to VB...probably via a public perception trigger more than anthing else...i.e. if the unwashed masses THINK it's cheaper then that is near enough.

Would it be too long a bow to draw to suggest Jetstar may in fact be helping MAINTAIN jobs in LH fleet?

Little doubt, in my mind at least, that Jetstar will be used to increase productivity in domestic ops but that's not unreasonable when you consider that a ex TAA B737 captain on the post 89 contracts is on about the same as a B744 captain but has similar yeild producing ability as a Jetstar captain. Sad perhaps for the individuals affected but we are talking about contracts designed to end industrial action and get an airline back in the air.

The really difficult thing for some young pilots is aligning their expectations with reality....and that is not $250K for a B737 captain.

In the end it probably won't mean too much for the captains with these contract as they surely must be not THAT far off retiring.

The other point that seems lost on the vociferous few is that ALL Jetstar pilots recruited in the last year + have had to pass the normal full QF recruitment process...as do the Sunnies, Eastern boys and girls...they were just recruited for a different part of the QF Group...pure luck not a different standard.

Yes the senior guys did not but the company needed DE Check and Trainers...experience...and guys who would be there long term rather than seconding people from mainline. They got that and they got some pretty impressive people in the bargain...QF is VERY lucky to have the top people they have at Jetstar and THEY KNOW IT. It would be completely counterproductive to put these people through the QF recruitment process because it is designed to identify potential successfull cadets not experienced pilots in the 40-50 age bracket....a large % of mainline senior captains would fail it too and yet no-one would ever suggest they shouldn't be occupying the seats they do....except the usual small % of captains you wouldn't give a kite to fly and can never work out how they have slipped through the system

The pilots at Jetstar DO NOT sit around working out how to undercut the mainline guys...and I know some of the people who negotiated their (very good) contract.

So why don't you children learn to play together?

[Vorsicht]

There is a whole lot more to efficiency than the amount of hours flown.

It is the amount of deadhead sectors, the amount of nights in hotels, the amount of overtime paid etc.

From anecdotal evidence, i would suggest that QF L/H is a long way behind the 8 ball when it comes to roster efficiency compared to may of their competitors.

Additionally, as Chimbu says, some of you guys have your eye on the wrong ball. Your competitors are your enemy, not your fellow pilots.

You should be asking your management and the CASA why EK are allowed to fly through australia when they don't comply to the one day off in seven rule for instance. These are the areas where you are being screwed.

It appears to me that you are content that your agreement precludes you from having to work such arduous rosters, but as long as your competitors are allowed to, you are screwed. You may keep your conditions through some sort of industrial action, and win the battle. But if your airline has to compete with others who have a lower cost base, then you will eventually lose the war.

[Chimbu chuckles]

QF is behind the 8 ball competively for one other reason...Australia's geographic location and distance from everywhere...Oz is the end of the line...compared to Dubai which is currently and for a fair while yet a hub.

It is entirely likely that QF is incapable of the type of effeciencies that EK get from their crews...no fault of anyone at QF least of all the crews...not only are QF battling those sorts of issues but also competing with companies that would not be allowed their 'work practices' in a first world country...but that is an issue for CASA and their track record in this area is abismal.

None of this is a justification for the sort of behaviour we have come to expect from GOD.

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

Chimbu - Halleluja to your last couple of posts.

[AnQrKa]

The lion’s share of this debate has been about money. Salary.

Salary is only a small part of the issue. Jetstar will provide efficiencies that AIPA will not allow mainline to have such as,

-Fewer crew per aircraft on long haul flights. Many of QF’s competitors operate 2 crew on sectors where QF operates 3 crew and some airlines operate 3 crew when QF are 4 crew.

-Crew bases for wide body aircraft in cities other than SYD. How many QF767 crew are overnighted in MEL? How many SO’s are based in Asia?

-The ability to recruit crew onto the Airbus without the knock on effect of training crew across all fleets as demanded by seniority.

-The ability of Jetstar to employ direct entry commands if required.

-Shorter nightstops and more efficient patterns.

-the removal of old fashioned rostering practices such as blank lines.

AIPA has been unwilling to come to the party on a lot of these issues for years and as a result will become totally marginalized. AIPA should start becoming a manager of change instead of continually being a victim of change.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Gee, you make it sound so great to be a Jetstar pilot.

Every single one of those "efficiencies" is going to either work the pilots into the ground or screw them for promotion.

All this and being paid less than the going rate to boot!

Try getting shorter nightstops and more efficient patterns out of a flight that goes to a destination once a day, if that.

PS, AIPA has nothing to do with not allowing a 767 base in Melbourne, it's purely a company decision.

[rescue 1]

Ok, I know that there has been a fair bit of discussion on the jetstar brand expanding internationally.

But - the way I understood the press release from Mr Dickson, this brand expansion is a separate entity to the existing jetstar! That is fresh terms and conditions! Or did I get that wrong?

[Pete Conrad]

Rescue, no you didn't get it wrong, in fact in high probability, the Jetstar international expansion MAY not even be crewed by existing Jetstar.

Borg, what do you expect, you are dealing with guys that have never known or had any better, every step up is something they never had, they never had a seniority system, never had good pay, always had to pay for their type rating and so if they can undercut and get the work, they aren't losing out in any way shape or form.

[oicur12]

Pete,

“Borg, what do you expect, you are dealing with guys that have never known or had any better, every step up is something they never had, they never had a seniority system, never had good pay, always had to pay for their type rating and so if they can undercut and get the work, they aren't losing out in any way shape or form.”

The pilots I know of and have worked with in the past that are now employed by Jetstar have worked for airlines such as Cathay, Ansett, Malaysian, Vietnam Airlines, Silkair, Dragonair, EVA and of course, Qantas. Some have been flying the A320 for over 15 years as training captains and even check captains. Most have worked with very strict seniority rules; most have enjoyed excellent income – indeed more than many QF pilots. Not one of the pilots I refer to has ever paid a cent for type training, although I am aware that this does occur.

It is a very slippery slope you are attempting to climb my friend, making experience comparisons between Qantas (a cadet airline) and Jetstar.

[cunninglinguist]

........and whose fault is that Pete ?



" 3+ times the seats "
.......they're packing 3 x 177 = 531 into a rat tailed Jumbo these days ?

[Pete Conrad]

Aaaah oicur12, thank you for reminding me, how could I have been so remiss????? Yes, lets not forget the militant 89 ers who cracked the ****s and left our shores only to come back and reverse their hard stand to crew Jetstar. Your talking exception rather than rule, we all know the core of Jetstar is Impulse and your slope is even slipprier if you think that Jetstar has an experience advantage over Qantas..Do you remember the days when Impulse was the airline you got into when you couldn't get into any other airline? Obviously not.

[HI'er]

The pilots I know of and have worked with in the past that are now employed by Jetstar have worked for airlines such as Cathay, Ansett, Malaysian, Vietnam Airlines, Silkair, Dragonair, EVA and of course, Qantas. Some have been flying the A320 for over 15 years as training captains and even check captains.

Many non-Ansett pilots with Jet Star have noticed that the majority of the C & T section of that airline is populated by those who joined Ansett during an industrial dispute.
Nothing wrong with that, you say, however many MORE experienced people than those holding the check & training positions were "bypassed" in favour of their like-mindeds.

[Four Points]

Well my heart is bleeding for you bunch of sorry pathetic mainline A>H's. It is time you received a taste of your own medicine. The Karmer Gods have finally reacted and you will all receive justice. The way QF mainline A>H's have treated the regional Pilots since the Australian Airlines takeover has been disgracefull. Jetstar watch out you are not improving the QF regional airlines relations either. The Karmer Gods will strike you next. Change your recruitment requirements for in house recruitment, don't see the QF A>H's jumping through the same hoops as the regionals. Remember a dark and stormy day not so long ago when Mr Gerry McGowan was screwing you. Lucky QF was in the market for a cheap low cost carrier. How well did you all go in the QF Psychometric test? I would say most of you failed that is why you were working for McGowan in the first place.

[ur2]

Hi'er or whatever,
And who would have had uch more experience than some 15years a320 experience most of which as Training and Check Captains,
Most of those pilots have more than 8000hrs just on a320, and some have over 14,000 hrs on type.
What would you know tossa.