Erebus 25 years on

[prospector]

Another book that has a chapter on Erebus viewed from the CAA perspective is "A History of Civil Aviation in New Zealand". by Maurice E, McGreal. He had a long career in Aviation, from wartime RAF, TEAL flying boats and landplanes, to CAA where he was Assistant Director (Flight Operations), on retirement. Very interesting book with the chapter on Erebus making it even more value.

[SR71]

malcolmyoung90

I live about 12000 nm from NZ so its a little tricky for me to get into a NZ bookshop.

But I'll check out that site.

Thanks.

The next aircraft in a USAF C-141 only 45 minutes behind said no terrain was visible and he made a long gradual descent over the water, navigating entirely by INS and maintaining 16,000ft until being picked up by McMurdo radar about 38 nautical miles out.

...which only serves to demonstrate how successful the 901 flight would have been if AINS had been fed the right data.

[prospector]

SR71,
"...which only serves to demonstrate how successful the 901 flight would have been if AINS had been fed the right data"

To my way of thinking it demonstrates, that whatever track they were on, if they had of maintained 16,000ft until identified by radar there would have been no problem. Except the weather at McMurdo was below their company minima for descent at all. Hence the need to go down a sucker hole and duck underneath the cloud base. The folly of that course of action has been proven many times, before and after this event, with aircraft a lot slower than a DC10.

[ampan]

You could also try "Trade Me", NZ's version of Ebay. They have Mahon's book, Vette's book, and McFarlane's book currently listed.

(80 squid each from Amazon is daylight robbery)

[malcolmyoung90]

Books Written About Erebus

Some great information there.

I forgot to add - if you find the book that you're after on abebooks, you can determine how much they're going to charge you for postage/handling directly from their website (that is, if the weight of the book is accurate). You will probably notice that the postal rates quoted are quite high, and may put you off your purchase. A little tip - note down the name and location of the bookseller, and do a google search for them. There is a fair chance that the bookseller will have their own website, or, at the least, their own email address. Contact them directly, and they will more than likely quote you a smaller price for postage. In some circumstances, they also knock a few dollars off the cost of the book, when compared to their price quoted on abebooks.

Another book that has a chapter on Erebus viewed from the CAA perspective is "A History of Civil Aviation in New Zealand". by Maurice E, McGreal.

Thanks prospector,

I think I have come across a reference to this book on the internet. I will have a search for it and try and purchase it, since you seem to think it's worthwhile.

There is so much criticism of CAD in both the Chippendale report and the Mahon report, it will be interesting to read what one of their directors had to say in their defence. Despite all of the criticism of the CAD in the Mahon report, the Government formed a state services commission (or similar name) that cleared CAD of ANY responsibility of the crash, despite the fact that they agreed that there were many shortcomings with what they approved. So, in the end, despite all of the evidence, a Royal Commission investigates a crash by a government owned airline, of which the findings criticising CAD (part of the Ministry of Transport) are rejected by them, so the government forms a team of people to let them off the hook. As Mahon said "It is the civil service absolving the civil service".

Can anyone tell me how the NZ Government got away with doing all of this at the time?

[malcolmyoung90]

Secondhand Books

I live about 12000 nm from NZ so its a little tricky for me to get into a NZ bookshop.

I'm about 2000nm away so not quite walking distance either. Most of the second book stores throughout Aus/NZ, especially the larger ones (and better ones) have their catalogue listed on at least one of the major websites (especially abebooks). Indeed after speaking to many of these people that own 2nd hand bookshops, they make a large proportion of their sales via the internet, rather than walk-in customers. It seems to have made their businesses all the more viable.

[ampan]

Books

This is one of the best secondhand bookshops in Auckland for NZ books:

http://www.hardtofind.co.nz/

I'd send them an email and ask them to keep a lookout. They definitely had the Mahan and MacFarlane books the last time I was in there about a year ago.

And here's what's available on Trade Me at present:


http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Sear...earch&x=18&y=8

[Brian Abraham]

So I don't think the strip chart would have influenced the pilots.

Not having a go ampan but thats where a great deal of the problem lies. We don't know, and will never know, what influences any thing had on the crew on the day. We can summise all we like, unfortunately. Here we are decades after the event and still argueing the toss about what, why and how. And there will never be any definative answers, once again unfortunately.

[malcolmyoung90]

Ampan,
Your post #314.

Another exec pilot (who was an ALPA rep at the time) was alleged to have collected documents from the F/O's house and then destroyed them. Morrie Davies was alleged to have ordered the shredding of incriminating documents. And there was also the burglary allegation to which you refer.

None of these allegations were established before the Royal Commission. The Police investigated them. No-one was prosecuted.

I beg to differ on your comment. The removal of documents (these were briefing documents) from the Cassin household - this was not only established during the Royal Commision, but the person who took them, Captain Crosby, fully admitted to doing so up on the witness stand. Part of Anne Cassin's testimony is "I asked Captain Crosby to return the documents, but he refused". I will transcribe all this off the video if it will clear up some confusion.

True, the police never prosecuted anyone from Air NZ. But 2 teams of detectives seriously looked at charging some of the employess with manslaughter and perjury. I believe that Eden and Hewitt were their prime targets, but they had insufficient evidence to proceed with the charges.

Your post #324,

“Captain Gemmell was then cross-examined, at considerable length, by counsel for other parties. Many criticisms of the flight planning were advanced and it was interesting to see how the witness responded to the detailed and challenging questions which were addressed to him. The answers which he gave were unhesitating and positive. When possible, his answers were monosyllabic, and he seemed to treat the various counsel with thinly veiled contempt.”

Watching Captain Gemmell's testimony (this is relating to documents that went missing down on the ice), I was disturbed to see how evasive he was. The whole reason for the Commission was to determine why 257 died, and then to make sure that such a disaster can never be repeated. But his ultra defensive nature and evasiveness seemed to be in opposition to this purpose.

[prospector]

Malcomyoung90,
"There is so much criticism of CAD in both the Chippendale report and the Mahon report, it will be interesting to read what one of their directors had to say in their defence. Despite all of the criticism of the CAD in the Mahon report, the Government formed a state services commission (or similar name) that cleared CAD of ANY responsibility of the crash, despite the fact that they agreed that there were many shortcomings with what they approved."

That was the Bolt/Kennedy report, far from a State Services Commission.
Sir Richard Bolt would have had to been the most highly qualified aviator in New Zealand at the time. I think the main criticism was the fact that CAA trusted Air New Zealand staff to carry out the requirements of the clearance to operate to Antarctica, and did not monitor the proceedings closely enough.

As has been stated before in this thread, an airline inspector was scheduled to go on FLT901, but due to a family illness had to cancel. One wonders if the flight would have been conducted in the same manner if it was known a CAA airline inspector was onboard.

[flying-spike]

Slightly off topic

For those of you interested in accident investigation and wanting a very cost-effective insight check out ISASI Reachout 25 at www.asasi.org (events)

[malcolmyoung90]

CVR Transcribing Team

ampan,
Your post #301

They were taken back to Auckland around a week later and then sent off to the US for transcription. The union, quite rightly, insisted on being represented at the transcription. So a three man team was sent off with the CVR tape. One was a union man. One was a company man. And the other was the senior F/O, who you could call "exec", but maybe he was sent because he knew the voices of the F/Os on the flight.

Chippendale was one of the men that went to Washington DC to be part of the transcribing team, was he not? His position and employer do not seem to match the descriptions that you've described above.

[malcolmyoung90]

Slightly off topic - QANTAS flights to Antarctica

gsf,
Your post #299,

He told me that volcanic dustcloud was notamed, but BA continued on the planned route anyway.
The Qantas pilot said they took on extra fuel and routed round the notamed area.

It is written that QANTAS pioneered the sightseeing flights to Antarctica in 77 using their 747's, and that the stopped them in 79, presumably because of the Air NZ crash. QANTAS have since resumed the flights in 94, and continue to fly about 14 sightseeing flights to the region a year.

Given all this, why was it that QANTAS did not have the same problems as Air NZ with regards to flight safety? Or was it just a matter of "good fortune"?

I'm not trying to set-up a debate on who is (or who was in the 70's) a safer airline. Even Oscar winning movies such as "Rain Main" use QANTAS's safety record for entertaining purposes.

[ampan]

CVR Transcribing Team

Have been checking this out. Chippendale was not one of the team. The three were Capts. Cooper & Wyatt, and F/E Olliff. Cooper was a union man, Wyatt was a company man, and Olliff was the senior F/E.

Their transcript did not contain "Bit thick in here Bert". That was added by Chippendale went he had the tape analysed again, and then removed by Mahon when Mahon had the tape analysed again.

The tape, as I understand things, is now with Archives NZ - and is probably completely worn out.

[Graybeard]

I just slogged through this whole thread in the last 18 hours. It's amazing that there is still so much interest in it.

I have a copy of "Whiteout," complete with its praise of the mighty Pratt & Whitney engines, but no explanation of why a GE rep was on site at the crash, and not a P&W rep.

I also have a copy of Mahon's report, having read it some years back.

I have some info to add, but first would like to know how soon after the crash it was learned or leaked that the MURDO waypoint had been changed to take the plane direct to McMurdo Station. Surely, before that point in time, it must have been speculated that the AINS or INS had drifted, rather than had guided the plane almost exactly as programmed.

GB

[ampan]

AirNZ's position was that they knew about the change in coordinates straight away, because they did it deliberately, thinking that they were correcting a small error. The penny didn't drop until they discovered that a flightplan of the previous route had been floating around at the briefing. I'm reasonably sure that it took several days for that to be discovered.

On the day after the accident, all AirNZ had was an unmitigated disaster. They did not immediately hone in on navigation. Maintenence records were checked. And fuel. And crew medicals - and everything else, including navigation.

[ampan]

Back to Basics

Re Prospector #359:

Although Prospector might appear to be a little hard-nosed, isn't what he's saying there exactly what you other gentlemen were told at flying school, or in the airforce?

[malcolmyoung90]

Washington DC Transcribing Team

Chippendale was not one of the team. The three were Capts. Cooper & Wyatt, and F/E Olliff. Cooper was a union man, Wyatt was a company man, and Olliff was the senior F/E.

Their transcript did not contain "Bit thick in here Bert". That was added by Chippendale went he had the tape analysed again, and then removed by Mahon when Mahon had the tape analysed again.

The tape, as I understand things, is now with Archives NZ - and is probably completely worn out.

OK. Chippendale did have an alternate transcript prepared, as he also had the tape transcribed in Farnborough, UK. So I presume that Chippendale was part of the team that that travelled to Farnborough (or perhaps he was the only one).

I find it a bit intriguing, that a senior crash investigator would not have enough confidence in either the facilties at the NTSB in Washington DC and/or the transcribing of the CVR, that would necessitate an alternate version be made in the UK. Surely the facilities and personnel of the NTSB would be at least equal to that in England

Can anyone advise whether they are aware if this type of thing happening for any other aviation crash?

As for Mahon, he attended the NTSB in Washington DC, together with Baragwanath, during an adjournment of the Royal Commission. It was there that they listened to the tape and did not agree with the "Bit thick in here Bert" comment.

My understanding on the present location of the tape is the same as your's. During the 25th anniversary of the crash, the NZ Herald did mention its whereabouts, and also said that it would probably never be available for public release (so locked up forever). Irrespective, I wouldn't have thought that it would be the only tape. Surely the NTSB would have made copies (?)

[ampan]

CVR Transcription

The transcription was an NZ matter, for it's own CAD. But given the lack of facilities, they requested US assistance, which was given. So although the tapes went to the US, they were always in the custody of the NZ government or its agents. The taking of a copy of the tape would have been controversial, on both sides. As is well known, the various unions around the world have been very active in limiting the use of CVR tapes. As for AirNZ, US lawyers were keen to hear the tapes, to see if there was any money in it for them. So I would be very surprised if the NTSB kept a copy (or the FBI, who also assisted).

[malcolmyoung90]

Interest in Erebus Crash

I just slogged through this whole thread in the last 18 hours. It's amazing that there is still so much interest in it.

At the current time (3:15pm ACST), everyone (with the exception of prospector) that has posted a comment in this forum which appers on page 19 is currently online and logged into the website. So that must mean that prospector is the only one of us with a job!

Jokes aside, I don't know whether this level of interest can be explained by the following list:
Erebus was:

1) At the time, the world's 4th worst aviation disaster (in terms of casualties).
2) The only major crash involving a civil airliner in Antarctica.
3) At the time, probably the worst aviation accident in the southern hemisphere (and probably worst of all time).
4) The worst aircraft disaster by far, by either a NZ or Aust airline.
5) A sightseeing flight - all other major crashes would have been regular scheduled flights.
6) Amazingly controversial, in that the probable cause and other causes (and who was responsible and in what "%") is still widely debated today, as seen in this forum.
7) There was a Royal Commission (how many aviation crashes have a RC or its equivalent in non-Commonwealth countries?), followed by a Court of Appeal case as a result of the airline appealing the "orchestrated litany of lies" and implied cover-up.
8) This was followed up by the Judge's resignation, apparently unprecedanted, so that he could appeal this to the Privy Council.
9) Last, but not least, it was and remains NZ's worst peace-time disaster.

There are probably many more valid reasons if anyone would care to add to this list.