No-frills kangaroo ready to hop
For the first time in my time in the red rat, I've seen an issue that has got the troops really riled. There are some mighty pissed off guys and girls out there. I can tell you now, if this goes through and we end up getting paid 40% less to do the same job, and that's what we're talking about here, NEARLY A 50% WAGE CUT, I won't be there for long. I'm sure that'll make a lot of people's days, another opening at QANTAS. If you want it, you're welcome to it. So much for having a reasonable job still to aim for in Australia. Let me spell this out for all of you, this doesn't only affect QANTAS or Impulse pilots, this will affect ALL OF YOU who may ever want to work for a decent wage in this country.
So, if this happens I'm going to become a plumber or brickie and take home a s$%tload more for a lot less stress and hassle, buy a nice place on the Hawkesbury and laugh when I see you lot go overhead while I stand there with a beer in my hand at 5.30 on a weekday or maybe even on a Saturday afternoon. This is a disgrace. Plain and simple.
So, if this happens I'm going to become a plumber or brickie and take home a s$%tload more for a lot less stress and hassle, buy a nice place on the Hawkesbury and laugh when I see you lot go overhead while I stand there with a beer in my hand at 5.30 on a weekday or maybe even on a Saturday afternoon. This is a disgrace. Plain and simple.
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"DirectAnywhere"
Don't be a ********!!
$95,000.00 as anything but a pilot is huge money!
You guys at the White Rat MUST have seen it coming.
There are MANY pilots out there who would kill to fly again for half of what you are getting, you are obviously unaware of what the situation is out there in the real world.
Good luck in the future, the LCCs are as good as QF and they are here.
Stand by for lift off!
Don't be a ********!!
$95,000.00 as anything but a pilot is huge money!
You guys at the White Rat MUST have seen it coming.
There are MANY pilots out there who would kill to fly again for half of what you are getting, you are obviously unaware of what the situation is out there in the real world.
Good luck in the future, the LCCs are as good as QF and they are here.
Stand by for lift off!
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Well I guess it's an obvious answer then isn't it. All VQ pilots should either strike,professionally cut there own throats or quit in protest as to what QF management is offering them. I mean who are they to think they have any right to a job.
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dirtylittlefocker:
let me guess, you are either flying for a LCC or trying to get into one after missing out on QF. How can you say that LCC are as good as QF when:
- you have to pay for your own training which is minimal.
- you don't get any kind of training wage.
- pilots of LCC get check and trained half the amount.
- the comparison in experience of the two pilot groups is huge.
Yes 95k is a lot, but look at it from the bigger picture. Compare it to another career that pays the same and consider these points/questions that differentiate from any other career:
- are you away for 6 months of the year
- we have a medical every 12 months, which could end you career
- your job is on the line everytime you get checked
- any mistake could cost your career
- you have peoples lives in your hands everytime you go to work
- did you spend 50k - 60k just to get the qualifications
- how hard and what have you had to do just to get here.
There are many pilots out there who would do it for half, thats because of where they are, and if they did do it for half would soon realize how they have just shot themselves in the foot, there is suddenly no light at the end of the tunnel and no reward.
If you still think pilots should be payed less, next time you are on a flight at night, through severe turb, in rain, crap weather, ask the person sitting next to you what a quality pilot is worth!!
let me guess, you are either flying for a LCC or trying to get into one after missing out on QF. How can you say that LCC are as good as QF when:
- you have to pay for your own training which is minimal.
- you don't get any kind of training wage.
- pilots of LCC get check and trained half the amount.
- the comparison in experience of the two pilot groups is huge.
Yes 95k is a lot, but look at it from the bigger picture. Compare it to another career that pays the same and consider these points/questions that differentiate from any other career:
- are you away for 6 months of the year
- we have a medical every 12 months, which could end you career
- your job is on the line everytime you get checked
- any mistake could cost your career
- you have peoples lives in your hands everytime you go to work
- did you spend 50k - 60k just to get the qualifications
- how hard and what have you had to do just to get here.
There are many pilots out there who would do it for half, thats because of where they are, and if they did do it for half would soon realize how they have just shot themselves in the foot, there is suddenly no light at the end of the tunnel and no reward.
If you still think pilots should be payed less, next time you are on a flight at night, through severe turb, in rain, crap weather, ask the person sitting next to you what a quality pilot is worth!!
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dirtylittlefokker,
I think it is ashame that pilots don't believe they are worth
$95 000, and more++.
First job usually away from society (NT, PNG) for prolonged period of time while having to pay back large training debt on min wage. Eventually get a jet job then; sim checked 4 times a year for career, work back of clock hours, family strains due time away from home, promotion conversion courses, etc.
Ask yourself, when was the last time you think a doctor was quizzed/tested on his knowledged and if so was it was every 3 months.
Responsibility per day at work involves 100++ lives where one big mistake could not only cost your job, but you and others mentioned above.
A recient paper artical showed what 100 CEO's earned in OZ. VERY large sums for a job I understand in most cases would involve stressfull decision making, long hours, management of people, UNI level education, etc. Sound familiar.
The major difference between many CEO's and pilots is after a mistake is made they can walk away from it and most continue employment or get a payout.
Don't sell yourself short! The real world shows you are worth it.
FFRATS
I think it is ashame that pilots don't believe they are worth
$95 000, and more++.
First job usually away from society (NT, PNG) for prolonged period of time while having to pay back large training debt on min wage. Eventually get a jet job then; sim checked 4 times a year for career, work back of clock hours, family strains due time away from home, promotion conversion courses, etc.
Ask yourself, when was the last time you think a doctor was quizzed/tested on his knowledged and if so was it was every 3 months.
Responsibility per day at work involves 100++ lives where one big mistake could not only cost your job, but you and others mentioned above.
A recient paper artical showed what 100 CEO's earned in OZ. VERY large sums for a job I understand in most cases would involve stressfull decision making, long hours, management of people, UNI level education, etc. Sound familiar.
The major difference between many CEO's and pilots is after a mistake is made they can walk away from it and most continue employment or get a payout.
Don't sell yourself short! The real world shows you are worth it.
FFRATS
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dirtylittlefokker
Well said.
I get pissed off with the comparisons between other professions.
As for you other wingers, WHO HELD THE GUN TO YOUR HEAD AND FORCED YOU TO BECOME A PILOT? IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT, GO AND BECOME A BRICKIE OR A PLUMBER AND I WILL WAVE BACK TO YOU WHEN I FLY OVER THE HAWKESBURY, YOU LOSERS.
Well said.
I get pissed off with the comparisons between other professions.
As for you other wingers, WHO HELD THE GUN TO YOUR HEAD AND FORCED YOU TO BECOME A PILOT? IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT, GO AND BECOME A BRICKIE OR A PLUMBER AND I WILL WAVE BACK TO YOU WHEN I FLY OVER THE HAWKESBURY, YOU LOSERS.
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Fri "The Australian"
Qantas near no-frills plan
By Steve Creedy
November 14, 2003
The Qantas board is expected to make a decision early next week on which aircraft to fly for its new low-cost carrier.
Chief executive Geoff Dixon said a decision on where the new airline would be headquartered and what it would be called would also go to the board.
Boeing and Airbus have been keenly competing for the Qantas custom in what is understood to have been a closely fought contest.
The new carrier will have at least 23 aircraft by mid-2005.
There have been persistent rumours that the airline had already selected the Airbus A320, but Mr Dixon said yesterday this was not true.
Speaking after a Oneworld alliance meeting in Sydney, he said management would make a decision within the next 48 hours on offers from Boeing for 737-800s and Airbus on the A320.
Qantas was in negotiations with three state governments about where the new airline would base its headquarters and discussions with two others about other issues.
Picking a name was proving a problem but it would not include Qantas.
Mr Dixon said he did not know whether the new carrier would prevent Virgin from growing but he believed there was room for another airline. "I believe that both Qantas and the new carrier will grow and I believe there will be quite substantial market stimulation," he said.
The new airline will follow the traditional low-cost model and Qantas is being advised by former executives with aggressive European low-cost carrier Ryanair.
While Mr Dixon said Qantas liked the Ryanair model, it had yet to decide whether to start a fresh airline or use its Impulse subsidiary as a base.
Executives would not decide whether it would use Impulse's 14 Boeing 717s in the new carrier until they knew which model was being used.
Asked about Qantas overall, Mr Dixon said the airline expected a better result than last year and bookings in the past two months had been stronger than expected.
"We're just quietly confident that the business is returning to some strength," he said. "Every part of the Qantas business, all our subsidiary businesses, all our airline segments, are now profitable."
But there were angry words for suggestions Qantas was about to pull out of New Zealand due to poor load factors and that there was too little capacity on Australia-US routes. He said the airline was making money on its 111 trans-Tasman flights, which were flying more than 80 per cent full, and he did not see that changing.
"Our commitment to New Zealand – we've been there 60 years – is total and we have no intention of withdrawing in any way, shape or form," he said.
The airline had more capacity between the US and Australia than before 2001's September 11 attacks and load factors "were in the 70s".
===========================================
Qantas near no-frills plan
By Steve Creedy
November 14, 2003
The Qantas board is expected to make a decision early next week on which aircraft to fly for its new low-cost carrier.
Chief executive Geoff Dixon said a decision on where the new airline would be headquartered and what it would be called would also go to the board.
Boeing and Airbus have been keenly competing for the Qantas custom in what is understood to have been a closely fought contest.
The new carrier will have at least 23 aircraft by mid-2005.
There have been persistent rumours that the airline had already selected the Airbus A320, but Mr Dixon said yesterday this was not true.
Speaking after a Oneworld alliance meeting in Sydney, he said management would make a decision within the next 48 hours on offers from Boeing for 737-800s and Airbus on the A320.
Qantas was in negotiations with three state governments about where the new airline would base its headquarters and discussions with two others about other issues.
Picking a name was proving a problem but it would not include Qantas.
Mr Dixon said he did not know whether the new carrier would prevent Virgin from growing but he believed there was room for another airline. "I believe that both Qantas and the new carrier will grow and I believe there will be quite substantial market stimulation," he said.
The new airline will follow the traditional low-cost model and Qantas is being advised by former executives with aggressive European low-cost carrier Ryanair.
While Mr Dixon said Qantas liked the Ryanair model, it had yet to decide whether to start a fresh airline or use its Impulse subsidiary as a base.
Executives would not decide whether it would use Impulse's 14 Boeing 717s in the new carrier until they knew which model was being used.
Asked about Qantas overall, Mr Dixon said the airline expected a better result than last year and bookings in the past two months had been stronger than expected.
"We're just quietly confident that the business is returning to some strength," he said. "Every part of the Qantas business, all our subsidiary businesses, all our airline segments, are now profitable."
But there were angry words for suggestions Qantas was about to pull out of New Zealand due to poor load factors and that there was too little capacity on Australia-US routes. He said the airline was making money on its 111 trans-Tasman flights, which were flying more than 80 per cent full, and he did not see that changing.
"Our commitment to New Zealand – we've been there 60 years – is total and we have no intention of withdrawing in any way, shape or form," he said.
The airline had more capacity between the US and Australia than before 2001's September 11 attacks and load factors "were in the 70s".
===========================================
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Gotta have my 2 cents worth here.
NG, you are kidding right? Now you are saying we can't compare employment remuneration - simply because you say so? Give me a break.
Brickie's, plasterers, plumbers. They are all earning close to what we are as pilots. In many cases, more. Over $100K is not at all unusual for a tradesman these days. Now here's the comparison, and it is quite valid.
When I became a pilot - and it wasn't all that long ago, these fella's weren't earning anywhere close to what I was. Now they've caught up, and even overtaken.
The comparison is justified because it is a yardstick upon which we as pilots can measure our worth. And it seems our worth has been going downwards at a steady rate since the early '90s. Then along come Impulse. These blokes try and tell us we are worth even less again???
Sorry, but I must agree with the general thrust of this thread. That is that the offer put by the IPG is seriously disgusting. And it does affect all pilots in this country.
And James4th? Your reply to prop's post? Equally disturbing. I work for that carrier too and your post was simply offensive.
NG, you are kidding right? Now you are saying we can't compare employment remuneration - simply because you say so? Give me a break.
Brickie's, plasterers, plumbers. They are all earning close to what we are as pilots. In many cases, more. Over $100K is not at all unusual for a tradesman these days. Now here's the comparison, and it is quite valid.
When I became a pilot - and it wasn't all that long ago, these fella's weren't earning anywhere close to what I was. Now they've caught up, and even overtaken.
The comparison is justified because it is a yardstick upon which we as pilots can measure our worth. And it seems our worth has been going downwards at a steady rate since the early '90s. Then along come Impulse. These blokes try and tell us we are worth even less again???
Sorry, but I must agree with the general thrust of this thread. That is that the offer put by the IPG is seriously disgusting. And it does affect all pilots in this country.
And James4th? Your reply to prop's post? Equally disturbing. I work for that carrier too and your post was simply offensive.
Rostov & DLF
I don't think anyone begrudges you an opportunity to employment here in Australia. What rankles people is the fact that you seem to be attempting to do so in a matter that will greatly undervalue not only yourselves, but also the wider pilot body within Australia..
Why has the IPG proposed to fly what will be the same type/size of aircraft as DJ for substantially less money? I would have thought that a rational point to begin negotiations from would have been the AFAP sanctioned Virgin Blue EBA - doesn't that make sense? After all, numerous people on here have repeatedly pointed out the benefits of going with Impulse as the model of choice for the LWA - already operating under Qantas colours/SOPs/policy - so I would have thought that these points would have been used as positives for the impulse side of negotiations.
Instead rumours suggest that the IPG representatives have come in & not only undercut the rest of the market, but have also undercut themselves.
To take the brickie analogy one step further; what do you think would happen if you turned up on your (well paid) brickie mates job site & informed everyone that you could do their $100k job for $60k...? I'd imagine that you'd probably be waking up in hospital.
Can you see why Qantas mainline pilots (plus others elsewhere in the industry) might be decrying the recent manouevres of the IPG?
All I'm suggesting is that perhaps a more realistic starting point for negotiations would have helped matters.
Just my thoughts...
I don't think anyone begrudges you an opportunity to employment here in Australia. What rankles people is the fact that you seem to be attempting to do so in a matter that will greatly undervalue not only yourselves, but also the wider pilot body within Australia..
Why has the IPG proposed to fly what will be the same type/size of aircraft as DJ for substantially less money? I would have thought that a rational point to begin negotiations from would have been the AFAP sanctioned Virgin Blue EBA - doesn't that make sense? After all, numerous people on here have repeatedly pointed out the benefits of going with Impulse as the model of choice for the LWA - already operating under Qantas colours/SOPs/policy - so I would have thought that these points would have been used as positives for the impulse side of negotiations.
Instead rumours suggest that the IPG representatives have come in & not only undercut the rest of the market, but have also undercut themselves.
To take the brickie analogy one step further; what do you think would happen if you turned up on your (well paid) brickie mates job site & informed everyone that you could do their $100k job for $60k...? I'd imagine that you'd probably be waking up in hospital.
Can you see why Qantas mainline pilots (plus others elsewhere in the industry) might be decrying the recent manouevres of the IPG?
All I'm suggesting is that perhaps a more realistic starting point for negotiations would have helped matters.
Just my thoughts...
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Vitriol! Hijacking the industry! We have all seen the same rubbish over and over again. The 1900 was no good. Impulse would never get jets. Impulse got jets but they were no good. Impulse gets brought buy QF. The pilots are now " Destroying Conditions for all". The LCC comes along, now its a plot buy pilots to undermine the whole industry.
F@#K ME Swinging! Who actually makes the decisions when it comes to running an airline. Would it be management? I for one dont sit down and plot the LCCs moves at home! So its actualy management that makes the decisions.
Perhaps the pulse group should should just give up their jobs, forgo the mortgages, and take jobs out of the industry doing whatever they can find, as long as it keeps all the real proffesionals happy. Oh, but hang on, alot of us have already done that some 14 years ago.
How many of the knockers happily stepped into "OUR SEATS" then?
An adult view of the situation would leave you to conclude that the impulse drivers have very little control over procedings. Just as in most other airlines. I havent seen too much angst directed to the mother companies tactics.
At the end of the day, The continual knocking only goes to show what a sad small sandpit mentality Australian aviation has been cursed with. The irony is that the guys and gals at Impulse have worked very hard to create an effective airline. It is obvious that what happens at the pulse works. Why else would they be involved with the LCC.
Instead of hanging their heads as suggested in an earlier post. I feel that all concerned can be proud of their achievements. And the fact that they dont stoop to a gutter level standard when dealing with other companies/ pilots. Its probably not the modern thing, but sledging is just for kids in the playground. Openly critisising an organisation because of its success speaks volumes as to the quality of these individuals character.
I think alot of the knockers should perhaps be a little more concerned with the goings on in their own back yards rather than the easy usual target.
So what would it be Gnandenburg and proplever,
Slide the licence across the desk to keep guys like you happy?
Let me think about that for a moment...................
F@#K ME Swinging! Who actually makes the decisions when it comes to running an airline. Would it be management? I for one dont sit down and plot the LCCs moves at home! So its actualy management that makes the decisions.
Perhaps the pulse group should should just give up their jobs, forgo the mortgages, and take jobs out of the industry doing whatever they can find, as long as it keeps all the real proffesionals happy. Oh, but hang on, alot of us have already done that some 14 years ago.
How many of the knockers happily stepped into "OUR SEATS" then?
An adult view of the situation would leave you to conclude that the impulse drivers have very little control over procedings. Just as in most other airlines. I havent seen too much angst directed to the mother companies tactics.
At the end of the day, The continual knocking only goes to show what a sad small sandpit mentality Australian aviation has been cursed with. The irony is that the guys and gals at Impulse have worked very hard to create an effective airline. It is obvious that what happens at the pulse works. Why else would they be involved with the LCC.
Instead of hanging their heads as suggested in an earlier post. I feel that all concerned can be proud of their achievements. And the fact that they dont stoop to a gutter level standard when dealing with other companies/ pilots. Its probably not the modern thing, but sledging is just for kids in the playground. Openly critisising an organisation because of its success speaks volumes as to the quality of these individuals character.
I think alot of the knockers should perhaps be a little more concerned with the goings on in their own back yards rather than the easy usual target.
So what would it be Gnandenburg and proplever,
Slide the licence across the desk to keep guys like you happy?
Let me think about that for a moment...................
Last edited by Douglas Mcdonnell; 14th Nov 2003 at 06:41.
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Nice one Doug.
Balance, I am sorry if my post offends you but the truth is I see inside both mainline and Impulse and I would put our pilots up against any of yours anytime. Our experience is a lot more varied than yours and there is much more dedication, enthusiasm and camraderie.
As for Check and Training, we do the same amount as mainline, maybe even more line training and surveilliance in certain areas. Endorsement/initial line training is extremely comprehensive and as for the experience difference; it depends on what the experience is doesnt it? If you dont believe ask Rod McCallum, he flew with us for a few weeks and had formed an opinion.
So if you want to be a tradey, go and good riddence. Leave the industry to us that still enjoy flying for a fair and equitable salary. I too will wave at you when I fly over and mutter "It must be hell down there." Get your head out of the sand and look what is happening around the world. You cant live in your sheltered workshop for ever. Go overseas and work for anyone over there and see how long it takes for you start missing Oz. Unless you are a complete slave to mammon you will be ready to come back at half pay in 2 years......
However I believe that the money is SO important to you all now that nothing else matters.......you would do ANYTHING for extra pay..........so who is the prostitute?
I assume that all the vitriol is coming from mainline pilots; are there any out there that are not and still have strong feelings against Impuse and the IPG. Let me hear from you, I have heard enough from the sheltered workshop.........
Cheers
Jim4
PS. "A line in the sand" Havnt I heard that before somewhere? No, not Bush, around that year we are not allowed to mention.
Balance, I am sorry if my post offends you but the truth is I see inside both mainline and Impulse and I would put our pilots up against any of yours anytime. Our experience is a lot more varied than yours and there is much more dedication, enthusiasm and camraderie.
As for Check and Training, we do the same amount as mainline, maybe even more line training and surveilliance in certain areas. Endorsement/initial line training is extremely comprehensive and as for the experience difference; it depends on what the experience is doesnt it? If you dont believe ask Rod McCallum, he flew with us for a few weeks and had formed an opinion.
So if you want to be a tradey, go and good riddence. Leave the industry to us that still enjoy flying for a fair and equitable salary. I too will wave at you when I fly over and mutter "It must be hell down there." Get your head out of the sand and look what is happening around the world. You cant live in your sheltered workshop for ever. Go overseas and work for anyone over there and see how long it takes for you start missing Oz. Unless you are a complete slave to mammon you will be ready to come back at half pay in 2 years......
However I believe that the money is SO important to you all now that nothing else matters.......you would do ANYTHING for extra pay..........so who is the prostitute?
I assume that all the vitriol is coming from mainline pilots; are there any out there that are not and still have strong feelings against Impuse and the IPG. Let me hear from you, I have heard enough from the sheltered workshop.........
Cheers
Jim4
PS. "A line in the sand" Havnt I heard that before somewhere? No, not Bush, around that year we are not allowed to mention.
Last edited by James4th; 14th Nov 2003 at 07:06.
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Quote from James4th,
Balance, I am sorry if my post offends you but the truth is I see inside both mainline and Impulse and I would put our pilots up against any of yours anytime. Our experience is a lot more varied than yours and there is much more dedication, enthusiasm and camraderie.
What??!!! - Jeez, give a GA operator jets and overnight they become the Chuck Yeagers of the industry - pitting their skill,ability to push the outside of the envelope in a 717,taking on the demon that lives in the thinner air becuse they have vastly more experience than the mainline QF pilots!!
You might want to be carefull James4th, watch you don't screw the pooch.
If I was a QF mainline guy reading that i'd be a bit perplexed - no wonder you guys at VQ are not popular - not only are you prostitutes, but you guys invented jet flying!.........LOL!!!!!!!
longjohn - no scab here, joined the AN group well and truly after the event. Can we lose the Scab thing, 14 years later there is a more serious epidemic within the industry.
Balance, I am sorry if my post offends you but the truth is I see inside both mainline and Impulse and I would put our pilots up against any of yours anytime. Our experience is a lot more varied than yours and there is much more dedication, enthusiasm and camraderie.
What??!!! - Jeez, give a GA operator jets and overnight they become the Chuck Yeagers of the industry - pitting their skill,ability to push the outside of the envelope in a 717,taking on the demon that lives in the thinner air becuse they have vastly more experience than the mainline QF pilots!!
You might want to be carefull James4th, watch you don't screw the pooch.
If I was a QF mainline guy reading that i'd be a bit perplexed - no wonder you guys at VQ are not popular - not only are you prostitutes, but you guys invented jet flying!.........LOL!!!!!!!
longjohn - no scab here, joined the AN group well and truly after the event. Can we lose the Scab thing, 14 years later there is a more serious epidemic within the industry.
Last edited by Pete Conrad; 14th Nov 2003 at 13:49.
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BTW - what logical individual thinks remuneration isn't an issue in comparing jobs?
Are young kids going to beg $$$s from their folks for training, take crappy p/t jobs, keep fit (off the booze while their mates go berserk every w/e) and do the hard yards in charter/bush flying when they can cruise through uni' and get that accountant's job? Starting on 45k+o/t in Melb/Syd, in five years they'll be making 80-100k if they're smart; then get a PPL+ratings and fly for fun on weekends!
Heck, what sort of people will be attracted to the industry in the future the way things are going? You do get what you pay for.
Agree re an earlier post - this is a precedent of things to come industry-wide!
Aircrew - yeah, sell yourselves short! My plumber charged me AUD180 for 1hr 20mins work and an unblocked drain! What do you get for keeping pax safe for 1hr 20mins?!
Are young kids going to beg $$$s from their folks for training, take crappy p/t jobs, keep fit (off the booze while their mates go berserk every w/e) and do the hard yards in charter/bush flying when they can cruise through uni' and get that accountant's job? Starting on 45k+o/t in Melb/Syd, in five years they'll be making 80-100k if they're smart; then get a PPL+ratings and fly for fun on weekends!
Heck, what sort of people will be attracted to the industry in the future the way things are going? You do get what you pay for.
Agree re an earlier post - this is a precedent of things to come industry-wide!
Aircrew - yeah, sell yourselves short! My plumber charged me AUD180 for 1hr 20mins work and an unblocked drain! What do you get for keeping pax safe for 1hr 20mins?!
The whole problem is.......The Qantas Pilot Psyche Evaluation.
1) Cleverly, a generation of pilots who will only threaten a line in the sand, not pursue strike action. Due an admirable higher sense of duty.
2) The QF Psyche rejection is such a cold slap in the face. You now have a New Generation of pilots whose professional satisfaction is partly fueled by witnessing and assisting, a possible decline in QF pilots' conditions.
Had a genuine hope that exAnsett pilots and Impulse pilots could be rewarded with LCC. QF pilots doing OK, don't be greedy etc.
As a professional pilot I hope to see LCC a QF Mainline operation as conditions are preserved.
Are Next Generation and friends showing us why they have had to buy a profession?
Did AirNZ pilots have any success blocking Freedom pilots?
Would an integration of Impulse pilots into QF(without psyche profiling) raise their professional bar?
A friendly wave right back at you Next Generation. Unlike the finger you will be getting from Virgin Atlantic pilots( your widebody chance gone) or Pacific Blue( if not a captain, your command gone).
1) Cleverly, a generation of pilots who will only threaten a line in the sand, not pursue strike action. Due an admirable higher sense of duty.
2) The QF Psyche rejection is such a cold slap in the face. You now have a New Generation of pilots whose professional satisfaction is partly fueled by witnessing and assisting, a possible decline in QF pilots' conditions.
Had a genuine hope that exAnsett pilots and Impulse pilots could be rewarded with LCC. QF pilots doing OK, don't be greedy etc.
As a professional pilot I hope to see LCC a QF Mainline operation as conditions are preserved.
Are Next Generation and friends showing us why they have had to buy a profession?
Did AirNZ pilots have any success blocking Freedom pilots?
Would an integration of Impulse pilots into QF(without psyche profiling) raise their professional bar?
A friendly wave right back at you Next Generation. Unlike the finger you will be getting from Virgin Atlantic pilots( your widebody chance gone) or Pacific Blue( if not a captain, your command gone).
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 14th Nov 2003 at 15:32.
I am saddened but not surprised at the comments made by Dirty Little Fokker. This guy was one of the first to shaft his "mates" in the now defunct Flight West Airlines by signing up to the AWA.
Same old tricks....
Same old tricks....
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: home with mum and the kids
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Could we please put away the little violins, I am just about ready to start a new welfare organisation for all the hard done pilots in this world.
I find it quite hilarious when I read strongly worded messages from 20 year old second officers about how Impulse pilots are devaluing the profession and threatening 'their' future.
This from pilots who are yet to even LAND a jet!!!
Give me a break.
18 years old - Leave school.
18 months later - a Qantas pilot on Minimum $80ky. (yes with a $100k training debt)
As against the years and hours most impulse pilots spent just getting to where they are. Maybe that is why they appreciate it enough to sacrifice to keep it.
If you are a 20 year old Qantas pilot complaining about Impulse pilots taking your flying then pull your head in and relax, you will still be flying in the left hand seat well before your 35th Birthday.
Yes I too would like the promotions, but not so badly as to see others on to the street for it, its called empathy and it comes with experience (and age).
I find it quite hilarious when I read strongly worded messages from 20 year old second officers about how Impulse pilots are devaluing the profession and threatening 'their' future.
This from pilots who are yet to even LAND a jet!!!
Give me a break.
18 years old - Leave school.
18 months later - a Qantas pilot on Minimum $80ky. (yes with a $100k training debt)
As against the years and hours most impulse pilots spent just getting to where they are. Maybe that is why they appreciate it enough to sacrifice to keep it.
If you are a 20 year old Qantas pilot complaining about Impulse pilots taking your flying then pull your head in and relax, you will still be flying in the left hand seat well before your 35th Birthday.
Yes I too would like the promotions, but not so badly as to see others on to the street for it, its called empathy and it comes with experience (and age).
Join Date: May 2003
Location: oz
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As an ex AN Airbus driver, I hope Skimpy operate A320’s and advertise for crew with Airbus type ratings.
I would happily come back to Oz to fly a red tail machine for QF LCC especially with the salary paid to short haul pilots.
I would be less enthusiastic to do it for VB wages but would still not hesitate – it beats O/S.
This may result in slower career progression for many of my good buddies at QF and that would be unfortunate, but not the end of the world. At least they wont lose their jobs like I did.
I fail to see how my refusing to work for skimpy could possibly assist the financial future of QF pilots. Dixon will make his decision on skimpy regardless of how many type rated or experienced pilots sign or don’t sign. I cannot influence that. More importantly, the decision to work for skimpy or not work for skimpy is my decision and no one else’s.
I find it quite odd that I know QF pilots that cannot understand why I would want to work for “poverty wages” when these same people in another breath inform me that they are the “lowest paid 767 pilots in the world”. So its ok for them but not for me.
I would happily come back to Oz to fly a red tail machine for QF LCC especially with the salary paid to short haul pilots.
I would be less enthusiastic to do it for VB wages but would still not hesitate – it beats O/S.
This may result in slower career progression for many of my good buddies at QF and that would be unfortunate, but not the end of the world. At least they wont lose their jobs like I did.
I fail to see how my refusing to work for skimpy could possibly assist the financial future of QF pilots. Dixon will make his decision on skimpy regardless of how many type rated or experienced pilots sign or don’t sign. I cannot influence that. More importantly, the decision to work for skimpy or not work for skimpy is my decision and no one else’s.
I find it quite odd that I know QF pilots that cannot understand why I would want to work for “poverty wages” when these same people in another breath inform me that they are the “lowest paid 767 pilots in the world”. So its ok for them but not for me.
Ok. Been looking forward to this...where do I start?
Firstly, DLF, nothing like getting personal is there?? 95,000 AUS is no longer huge money and hasn't been for quite a while. Be realistic. It's OK but nothing fantastic. I could have earned that as a plumber or a lawyer, but no, I chose a profession I loved and hate to see devalued. Secondly, if you're happy to fly a Heavy Jet for $30,000 a year (about half of what I earn net - that's $600 a week take home - and you'd be looking at that until the day you retired plus CPI) welcome aboard. I'd be interested to see how long it lasts before you would start complaining. Watch this space. BTW, before you start, I'm not a S/O nor am I a Cadet having come through the same GA path as many of you. ie. instructing, charter etc.
Next Generation. I agree, nobody forced me to become a pilot. And once again, let's get personal in our posts shall we? I, like you, took a risk when I entered this profession. The risk however, was based on the idea that one day I may be earning somewhat more than an office clerk which would allow me to repay the debts I still have - and an Impulse F/O doesn't earn a lot more at 75K a year. A friend of mine earns 55K a year doing database entry all day. Would you value this profession as being at least worth more than 40% more than that? If not - welcome aboard. Hope to see you flying for Skimpy one day. I will wave at you as you fly overhead and think of how much fun you're having....Before you respond, "oh, if you don't want to fly let someone else..." let me make this clear. I love my job. It's a great job, but it's worth a lot more than 75K a year.
So, let me reiterate - this will not only affect QANTAS mainline pilots. VIRGIN pilots will suddenly become overpaid, expensive commodities. Your conditions are now also under attack. If 737 pilots (both QF and DJ) are being paid less than Regional pilots (assumption on my part - apologies if I'm wrong) where does that leave your conditions? and so on, and so forth. This is not only worrying for me it is worrying for us all...and yes, that includes even you, DLF and Next Generation.
I can understand why the Impulse pilots are doing what they are doing - thay have families and mortages to pay and are looking at the 717 disappearing entirely, that's the reality - and I sympathise with Chad's Funk Blaster - you were royally shafted. But, at the end of the day, if QF want to start a LCC - it has to be crewed by somebody. There will be a DEMAND for pilots. Why should negotiations on salaries and other remuneration start at the lowest possible point? To be honest, I don't really give a rat's if it's crewed by AIPA or AFAP crews, so long as those people flying those aircraft are being payed a reasonable salary for the work they are doing. And 75K a year is simply NOT a reasonable salary for an F/O on a 737. Just ask Virgin Blue...
Furthermore, if this happens, it means that many, and I won't say most, but many Flight Attendants and most, and I will say most if not all, CSMs in QANTAS will be being paid more than our new LCC pilots. And you wonder why I'm maybe a little worried about this?!!? Think long and hard about what I've just said...
I don't claim to be Chuck Yeager or any better than anyone else who posts on here. I'm sure I'm no better than most of you. I am someone though, who is proud to work for a pretty good airline, proud to be part of that airline and someone who is gravely worried about the future direction that airline and our industry is taking.
I await your replies with interest. Try and keep the personal vitriole to a minimum as it really serves no useful purpose. Oh, and DLF and Next Generation, please include some more information in your profile as I'd like to know where you're both coming from. I look forward to flying with you some day. Hopefully not in Skimpy...
Firstly, DLF, nothing like getting personal is there?? 95,000 AUS is no longer huge money and hasn't been for quite a while. Be realistic. It's OK but nothing fantastic. I could have earned that as a plumber or a lawyer, but no, I chose a profession I loved and hate to see devalued. Secondly, if you're happy to fly a Heavy Jet for $30,000 a year (about half of what I earn net - that's $600 a week take home - and you'd be looking at that until the day you retired plus CPI) welcome aboard. I'd be interested to see how long it lasts before you would start complaining. Watch this space. BTW, before you start, I'm not a S/O nor am I a Cadet having come through the same GA path as many of you. ie. instructing, charter etc.
Next Generation. I agree, nobody forced me to become a pilot. And once again, let's get personal in our posts shall we? I, like you, took a risk when I entered this profession. The risk however, was based on the idea that one day I may be earning somewhat more than an office clerk which would allow me to repay the debts I still have - and an Impulse F/O doesn't earn a lot more at 75K a year. A friend of mine earns 55K a year doing database entry all day. Would you value this profession as being at least worth more than 40% more than that? If not - welcome aboard. Hope to see you flying for Skimpy one day. I will wave at you as you fly overhead and think of how much fun you're having....Before you respond, "oh, if you don't want to fly let someone else..." let me make this clear. I love my job. It's a great job, but it's worth a lot more than 75K a year.
So, let me reiterate - this will not only affect QANTAS mainline pilots. VIRGIN pilots will suddenly become overpaid, expensive commodities. Your conditions are now also under attack. If 737 pilots (both QF and DJ) are being paid less than Regional pilots (assumption on my part - apologies if I'm wrong) where does that leave your conditions? and so on, and so forth. This is not only worrying for me it is worrying for us all...and yes, that includes even you, DLF and Next Generation.
I can understand why the Impulse pilots are doing what they are doing - thay have families and mortages to pay and are looking at the 717 disappearing entirely, that's the reality - and I sympathise with Chad's Funk Blaster - you were royally shafted. But, at the end of the day, if QF want to start a LCC - it has to be crewed by somebody. There will be a DEMAND for pilots. Why should negotiations on salaries and other remuneration start at the lowest possible point? To be honest, I don't really give a rat's if it's crewed by AIPA or AFAP crews, so long as those people flying those aircraft are being payed a reasonable salary for the work they are doing. And 75K a year is simply NOT a reasonable salary for an F/O on a 737. Just ask Virgin Blue...
Furthermore, if this happens, it means that many, and I won't say most, but many Flight Attendants and most, and I will say most if not all, CSMs in QANTAS will be being paid more than our new LCC pilots. And you wonder why I'm maybe a little worried about this?!!? Think long and hard about what I've just said...
I don't claim to be Chuck Yeager or any better than anyone else who posts on here. I'm sure I'm no better than most of you. I am someone though, who is proud to work for a pretty good airline, proud to be part of that airline and someone who is gravely worried about the future direction that airline and our industry is taking.
I await your replies with interest. Try and keep the personal vitriole to a minimum as it really serves no useful purpose. Oh, and DLF and Next Generation, please include some more information in your profile as I'd like to know where you're both coming from. I look forward to flying with you some day. Hopefully not in Skimpy...
Last edited by DirectAnywhere; 14th Nov 2003 at 20:04.