No-frills kangaroo ready to hop
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Three Bars, it was just an example. As I made the point in earlyer posts, the pilots just fly the planes to eak out a living. The average guy has no control over conditions or offers made for the LCC.
A cross roads where every direction is not realy an option. Certainly a difficult postion to be put in.
My understanding is that full AIPA membership has never been available to Pulse blokes. This might be incorrect. Im not exactly sure as to the out come of those early meetings.
What Id like to know is why there is a need for a LCC when execs get large bonus packages? Ive obviously missed something there.
A cross roads where every direction is not realy an option. Certainly a difficult postion to be put in.
My understanding is that full AIPA membership has never been available to Pulse blokes. This might be incorrect. Im not exactly sure as to the out come of those early meetings.
What Id like to know is why there is a need for a LCC when execs get large bonus packages? Ive obviously missed something there.
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Thanks for the off thread point there, DM, but I'm not a S/O. And that would be irrelevant anyway. And frankly, as three bars correctly points out, the majority of S/O's in QF are highly experienced GA and military operators. So please keep your arrogance to yourself.
Now to the crux of your last post. Why should AIPA help you, as you infer that they should? And for that matter, why winge that nobody has attempted to "help" the IPG. Can't you guys help yourselves? Can't you see that the offer presently on the table is way substandard? (YES or NO answer please).
No point in getting on here and complaining that no-one is "trying to help you", any more than us QF guys getting on here and complaining that the IPG are trying to undercut us. It's a simple matter of action. And whilst I'm suddenly seeing action on AIPA's part for their members, I see or hear nothing from the IPG trying to improve their lot.
And yes, you are quite correct. Dividing and conquering is a tool GD and his thugs like to use. We can't let them. Nor can you.
Now to the crux of your last post. Why should AIPA help you, as you infer that they should? And for that matter, why winge that nobody has attempted to "help" the IPG. Can't you guys help yourselves? Can't you see that the offer presently on the table is way substandard? (YES or NO answer please).
No point in getting on here and complaining that no-one is "trying to help you", any more than us QF guys getting on here and complaining that the IPG are trying to undercut us. It's a simple matter of action. And whilst I'm suddenly seeing action on AIPA's part for their members, I see or hear nothing from the IPG trying to improve their lot.
And yes, you are quite correct. Dividing and conquering is a tool GD and his thugs like to use. We can't let them. Nor can you.
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Mulgabill,
Do you really think that accepting the same pay and conditions that you currently enjoy on the 717 to fly a larger aircraft, is as you put it "negotiating a future beyond the 717" ?
If you really believe that then you truly deserve it!
Goodluck.
Do you really think that accepting the same pay and conditions that you currently enjoy on the 717 to fly a larger aircraft, is as you put it "negotiating a future beyond the 717" ?
If you really believe that then you truly deserve it!
Goodluck.
Nunc est bibendum
DM
Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy.
You guys could offer DJ conditions and QF will proabably go for it. I really doubt that they could get a green fields operation up and going in the time frame that they want so that means Impulse or mainline (not withstanding GDs comments about it being green fields or Impulse). That means that they'll pay a 'reasonable' wage. If you guys are silly enough to offer current conditions to guarantee your future than you deserve every cent you don't get.
Regards,
The average guy has no control over conditions or offers made for the LCC.
You guys could offer DJ conditions and QF will proabably go for it. I really doubt that they could get a green fields operation up and going in the time frame that they want so that means Impulse or mainline (not withstanding GDs comments about it being green fields or Impulse). That means that they'll pay a 'reasonable' wage. If you guys are silly enough to offer current conditions to guarantee your future than you deserve every cent you don't get.
Regards,
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Balance has said...
"And frankly, as three bars correctly points out, the majority of S/O's in QF are highly experienced GA and military operators. So please keep your arrogance to yourself."
Highly experienced GA and military operators are highly inexperienced airline pilots, Balance. You may not like it, but it's true!
"And frankly, as three bars correctly points out, the majority of S/O's in QF are highly experienced GA and military operators. So please keep your arrogance to yourself."
Highly experienced GA and military operators are highly inexperienced airline pilots, Balance. You may not like it, but it's true!
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AAP
15:03 AEDT Sun 16 Nov 2003
New Qantas airline no threat: Virgin
Virgin Blue chief executive Brett Godfrey does not see a threat coming from the planned Qantas Airways Ltd discount airline believing it won't get below Virgin's costs structure.
Mr Godfrey said Virgin's no-frills model has the lowest operating costs and the lowest priced seats in the country.
"I'm pretty confident that even Qantas is going to find it difficult to get below cost our costs structure," Mr Godfrey told Channel Nine's Business Sunday.
Australia's flagship carrier Qantas is launching a new discount domestic airline next May to take on Richard Branson's Virgin Blue in a head-to-head battle for travellers.
"We've secured very, very long term and very, very good deals with Boeing on our fleet, not just for the next year or two, but for the next decade," Mr Godfrey said.
He said Virgin, with around 30 per cent of the market, had also locked in strong long term deals at the prime airports.
"My fundamental strategy is to make sure we maintain the absolutely lowest cost base of any airline in this country and I believe the revenues will still come," he said.
With Virgin Blue going public soon, Mr Godfrey said the appointment of Patrick Corp Ltd chief executive and Virgin part owner Chris Corrigan as chairman will not signal radical change.
"I don't think it changes too much - historically the management team have run this business," Mr Godfrey said.
"I think (Chris Corrigan) has said he doesn't think there is too much wrong with the business at the moment and so I guess, as far as I'm concerned, it will be business as usual."
Virgin's founder Sir Richard Branson is selling a substantial stake in the company in the float which is expected to raise around $500 million leaving Mr Corrigan as the biggest individual shareholder.
AAP
============================================
Mon "The Australian"
Qantas can't match us: Virgin
By Michael Sainsbury
November 17, 2003
Virgin Blue chief executive Brett Godfrey does not believe Qantas can operate a new cut-price airline with a lower cost base than Virgin's.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said last week the company would unveil the new carrier within the next two weeks and that it would not have Qantas in its name.
But Mr Godfrey said Qantas would find it difficult to create cost structure as low or lower than the Virgin model, which had helped it grab about a third of the Australian market.
"They've talked about it entering on to the leisure routes," Mr Godfrey said.
"We don't make our money just on leisure routes. We've got 65 per cent of our capacity on the major routes, the triangle. We believe our model has the lowest operating costs.
"We have the lowest seats, the lowest priced seats in the country and the lowest costed seats in the country, and I'm pretty confident that even Qantas is going to find it difficult to get below our cost structure.
"We've secured very, very long-term and very, very good deals with Boeing on our fleet, not just for the next year or two, but for the next decade."
His comments back up those of Virgin founder Richard Branson, who has poured scorn on Qantas's plans.
"No other major airline in the world has successfully launched a discount airline," Sir Richard said.
In the year to March 2003, Virgin Blue posted a profit of $107 million on sales of $914 million.
In the prospectus for its forthcoming float, Virgin Blue forecasts that in the year to March 2004 revenue will be $1.386 billion with a profit of $150 million.
Virgin has gained its cost advantage by running a fleet with only one model of aircraft, having a new fleet which needs less maintenance and paying lower wages.
But observers argue that these start-up benefits will deteriorate.
Mr Godfrey, who stands to reap about $80 million from the float, claimed that money was not his motivation.
"I've always said that to me the challenge is getting up and doing better and better," he said.
Mr Godfrey said 85 per cent of the Australian market could be available to Virgin.
"I'm a very firm believer that there is only about 15 per cent of this market that we can't aspire to attain with our current model, so there is 85 per cent up for grabs," he said.
"Whether we get 30 or 35 or 40 per cent, ultimately, I'm not really too concerned.
"The important thing is to have profitable growth and maintain a significant enough margin which we have to our major competitor today."
============================================
15:03 AEDT Sun 16 Nov 2003
New Qantas airline no threat: Virgin
Virgin Blue chief executive Brett Godfrey does not see a threat coming from the planned Qantas Airways Ltd discount airline believing it won't get below Virgin's costs structure.
Mr Godfrey said Virgin's no-frills model has the lowest operating costs and the lowest priced seats in the country.
"I'm pretty confident that even Qantas is going to find it difficult to get below cost our costs structure," Mr Godfrey told Channel Nine's Business Sunday.
Australia's flagship carrier Qantas is launching a new discount domestic airline next May to take on Richard Branson's Virgin Blue in a head-to-head battle for travellers.
"We've secured very, very long term and very, very good deals with Boeing on our fleet, not just for the next year or two, but for the next decade," Mr Godfrey said.
He said Virgin, with around 30 per cent of the market, had also locked in strong long term deals at the prime airports.
"My fundamental strategy is to make sure we maintain the absolutely lowest cost base of any airline in this country and I believe the revenues will still come," he said.
With Virgin Blue going public soon, Mr Godfrey said the appointment of Patrick Corp Ltd chief executive and Virgin part owner Chris Corrigan as chairman will not signal radical change.
"I don't think it changes too much - historically the management team have run this business," Mr Godfrey said.
"I think (Chris Corrigan) has said he doesn't think there is too much wrong with the business at the moment and so I guess, as far as I'm concerned, it will be business as usual."
Virgin's founder Sir Richard Branson is selling a substantial stake in the company in the float which is expected to raise around $500 million leaving Mr Corrigan as the biggest individual shareholder.
AAP
============================================
Mon "The Australian"
Qantas can't match us: Virgin
By Michael Sainsbury
November 17, 2003
Virgin Blue chief executive Brett Godfrey does not believe Qantas can operate a new cut-price airline with a lower cost base than Virgin's.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said last week the company would unveil the new carrier within the next two weeks and that it would not have Qantas in its name.
But Mr Godfrey said Qantas would find it difficult to create cost structure as low or lower than the Virgin model, which had helped it grab about a third of the Australian market.
"They've talked about it entering on to the leisure routes," Mr Godfrey said.
"We don't make our money just on leisure routes. We've got 65 per cent of our capacity on the major routes, the triangle. We believe our model has the lowest operating costs.
"We have the lowest seats, the lowest priced seats in the country and the lowest costed seats in the country, and I'm pretty confident that even Qantas is going to find it difficult to get below our cost structure.
"We've secured very, very long-term and very, very good deals with Boeing on our fleet, not just for the next year or two, but for the next decade."
His comments back up those of Virgin founder Richard Branson, who has poured scorn on Qantas's plans.
"No other major airline in the world has successfully launched a discount airline," Sir Richard said.
In the year to March 2003, Virgin Blue posted a profit of $107 million on sales of $914 million.
In the prospectus for its forthcoming float, Virgin Blue forecasts that in the year to March 2004 revenue will be $1.386 billion with a profit of $150 million.
Virgin has gained its cost advantage by running a fleet with only one model of aircraft, having a new fleet which needs less maintenance and paying lower wages.
But observers argue that these start-up benefits will deteriorate.
Mr Godfrey, who stands to reap about $80 million from the float, claimed that money was not his motivation.
"I've always said that to me the challenge is getting up and doing better and better," he said.
Mr Godfrey said 85 per cent of the Australian market could be available to Virgin.
"I'm a very firm believer that there is only about 15 per cent of this market that we can't aspire to attain with our current model, so there is 85 per cent up for grabs," he said.
"Whether we get 30 or 35 or 40 per cent, ultimately, I'm not really too concerned.
"The important thing is to have profitable growth and maintain a significant enough margin which we have to our major competitor today."
============================================
Last edited by Wirraway; 17th Nov 2003 at 03:00.
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And you think it's rough here !!
AFP
AirAsia spooks THAI offering
AFP
The launch of new budget carrier AirAsia, half-owned by the family firm of Thailand’s premier Thaksin Shinawatra, has sparked a storm of controversy and criticism it will undercut the national carrier, Thai Airways, just before a major share offering.
AirAsia announced last week that from January it would begin flying to popular Thai destinations, including the northern city of Chiang Mai and the holiday island of Phuket, at half the fare charged by the beleaguered Thai Airways.
Shin Corp, the telecoms empire which made Thaksin a billionaire before he went into politics and transferred control to his family, will own 51 percent of AirAsia Aviation in partnership with Malaysian low-cost carrier AirAsia.
Pro-democracy activists, competing airlines and aviation analysts are alarmed at the prospect of a carrier with close links to the prime minister competing directly with Thai Airways, which stands to be the big loser.
“This is unacceptable, it’s tantamount to sabotage,“ said Udom Tantiprasongchai, president of low-cost Orient Thai Airlines which is at risk of being swept aside by AirAsia.
“It’s a farce — no other country in the world would invite foreign airlines to operate domestic routes, the air traffic rights should be preserved for local operators,“ he said.
The timing of the AirAsia launch announcement last week is particularly unfortunate, coming ahead of an offering of 385 million Thai Airways shares which will reduce its government ownership from 93 percent to 70 percent.
“It could lead to less interest from investors, even if right now Thai is quite a profitable company,“ said an independent aviation analyst in Bangkok after the airline announced a 22 percent increase in annual profit Friday.
The Malaysian arm of AirAsia, which is following in the footsteps of successful European budget operators like EasyJet and Ryanair, has discounted as “irrelevant“ the links to Thaksin but commentators in Thailand disagree.
“It’s true that going with Thaksin is a fantastic advantage in the Thai market. He rules the country and every single project is decided by him, including all the aviation industry projects,“ the analyst said.
“That could lead perhaps to a boost for AirAsia and a decline in the domestic market for Thai Airways. It could be dangerous for them.“
Suriyasai Katasila of Thailand’s Campaign for Popular Democracy said the deal was improper and could be the downfall of the Thaksin administration which swept to power in January 2001 with an unprecedented parliamentary majority.
“Shin Corp should not use its political advantage to gain pace over other competitors and Prime Minister Thaksin also must be very cautious with regards to the family business,“ he said.
Suriyasai said it was clear Thaksin was still at the helm of Shin Corp despite the ownership shift to his wife and children.
“It’s laughable whenever somebody raises this issue. His son still lives with his parents — if he’s honest about it, why doesn’t he transfer his shares to a legal entity?“ he said.
“I think this issue will trigger the downfall of the Thaksin government. Thaksin must draw a clear line between his family business interests and the public interest.“
The democracy campaigner said that although in the short term the advent of the low-cost carrier would benefit the public, if it managed to put its competitors out of business, it could turn itself into a monopoly.
Spurred into action by the new threat, Orient Thai plans to launch flights between Bangkok and Chiang Mai from December at a cost of 999 baht ($25), one baht lower than AirAsia and half the cost of a Thai Airways flight.
“I am ready to fight and will directly position my business to confront AirAsia by operating flights on the same routes,“ said Udom, whose airline has operated for a decade, mostly in the charter business.
Thai Airways, criticised by Thaksin as lumbering and slow to innovate, is also planning to break into the budget airline business with “Sky Asia“ due to launch in April on the lucrative routes from Bangkok to Chiang Mai and Phuket.
But analysts say the initiative is too little too late.
Far from having any reservations over the possible effects on Thai Airways, Thaksin warned last week that the carrier must lift its game.
“Everybody must adjust themselves. In the near future there will be no monopoly and every business sector will be liberated,“ he told reporters.
Thai Airways, which Thaksin once famously declared “sucked“ because of its poor service standards, would be relegated to servicing the niche market of upscale passengers, he said.
The government has also admitted that the financially ailing State Railway of Thailand will be harmed as AirAsia’s fares will be on a par with rates for air-conditioned rail carriages.
“This conflict of interest is not the best way to develop a country,“ said the independent analyst, adding however that Thailand’s richest man had an unerring nose for a good deal.
“Thaksin has seen the fantastic development of low-cost carriers and this business could have some synergy with his telecoms network. The investment is not that great and it’s a good way to enter the transport business,“ he said.
“It’s true that for normal democratic countries it would be really very strange, but that’s the way business is done in Thailand.“
===========================================
AFP
AirAsia spooks THAI offering
AFP
The launch of new budget carrier AirAsia, half-owned by the family firm of Thailand’s premier Thaksin Shinawatra, has sparked a storm of controversy and criticism it will undercut the national carrier, Thai Airways, just before a major share offering.
AirAsia announced last week that from January it would begin flying to popular Thai destinations, including the northern city of Chiang Mai and the holiday island of Phuket, at half the fare charged by the beleaguered Thai Airways.
Shin Corp, the telecoms empire which made Thaksin a billionaire before he went into politics and transferred control to his family, will own 51 percent of AirAsia Aviation in partnership with Malaysian low-cost carrier AirAsia.
Pro-democracy activists, competing airlines and aviation analysts are alarmed at the prospect of a carrier with close links to the prime minister competing directly with Thai Airways, which stands to be the big loser.
“This is unacceptable, it’s tantamount to sabotage,“ said Udom Tantiprasongchai, president of low-cost Orient Thai Airlines which is at risk of being swept aside by AirAsia.
“It’s a farce — no other country in the world would invite foreign airlines to operate domestic routes, the air traffic rights should be preserved for local operators,“ he said.
The timing of the AirAsia launch announcement last week is particularly unfortunate, coming ahead of an offering of 385 million Thai Airways shares which will reduce its government ownership from 93 percent to 70 percent.
“It could lead to less interest from investors, even if right now Thai is quite a profitable company,“ said an independent aviation analyst in Bangkok after the airline announced a 22 percent increase in annual profit Friday.
The Malaysian arm of AirAsia, which is following in the footsteps of successful European budget operators like EasyJet and Ryanair, has discounted as “irrelevant“ the links to Thaksin but commentators in Thailand disagree.
“It’s true that going with Thaksin is a fantastic advantage in the Thai market. He rules the country and every single project is decided by him, including all the aviation industry projects,“ the analyst said.
“That could lead perhaps to a boost for AirAsia and a decline in the domestic market for Thai Airways. It could be dangerous for them.“
Suriyasai Katasila of Thailand’s Campaign for Popular Democracy said the deal was improper and could be the downfall of the Thaksin administration which swept to power in January 2001 with an unprecedented parliamentary majority.
“Shin Corp should not use its political advantage to gain pace over other competitors and Prime Minister Thaksin also must be very cautious with regards to the family business,“ he said.
Suriyasai said it was clear Thaksin was still at the helm of Shin Corp despite the ownership shift to his wife and children.
“It’s laughable whenever somebody raises this issue. His son still lives with his parents — if he’s honest about it, why doesn’t he transfer his shares to a legal entity?“ he said.
“I think this issue will trigger the downfall of the Thaksin government. Thaksin must draw a clear line between his family business interests and the public interest.“
The democracy campaigner said that although in the short term the advent of the low-cost carrier would benefit the public, if it managed to put its competitors out of business, it could turn itself into a monopoly.
Spurred into action by the new threat, Orient Thai plans to launch flights between Bangkok and Chiang Mai from December at a cost of 999 baht ($25), one baht lower than AirAsia and half the cost of a Thai Airways flight.
“I am ready to fight and will directly position my business to confront AirAsia by operating flights on the same routes,“ said Udom, whose airline has operated for a decade, mostly in the charter business.
Thai Airways, criticised by Thaksin as lumbering and slow to innovate, is also planning to break into the budget airline business with “Sky Asia“ due to launch in April on the lucrative routes from Bangkok to Chiang Mai and Phuket.
But analysts say the initiative is too little too late.
Far from having any reservations over the possible effects on Thai Airways, Thaksin warned last week that the carrier must lift its game.
“Everybody must adjust themselves. In the near future there will be no monopoly and every business sector will be liberated,“ he told reporters.
Thai Airways, which Thaksin once famously declared “sucked“ because of its poor service standards, would be relegated to servicing the niche market of upscale passengers, he said.
The government has also admitted that the financially ailing State Railway of Thailand will be harmed as AirAsia’s fares will be on a par with rates for air-conditioned rail carriages.
“This conflict of interest is not the best way to develop a country,“ said the independent analyst, adding however that Thailand’s richest man had an unerring nose for a good deal.
“Thaksin has seen the fantastic development of low-cost carriers and this business could have some synergy with his telecoms network. The investment is not that great and it’s a good way to enter the transport business,“ he said.
“It’s true that for normal democratic countries it would be really very strange, but that’s the way business is done in Thailand.“
===========================================
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Amos2,
Over a third of the 744 second officers are ex AN drivers with a minimum of 7 years RPT jet experience before joining QF.
They are not all 20 year old pimply faced cadets.
Over a third of the 744 second officers are ex AN drivers with a minimum of 7 years RPT jet experience before joining QF.
They are not all 20 year old pimply faced cadets.
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Monday November 17, 10:05 AM AEDT
Qantas Mgmt To Recommend Airbus For Discount Ops- Source
SYDNEY (Dow Jones)--Qantas Airways Ltd. management is expected to recommend to its board the acquisition of a number of Airbus A320s for its low-cost budget airline, according to an industry source Monday.
Qantas is believed to have told Boeing Co. late last week that it was unsuccessful in securing the contract for the budget airline, which will takeoff in May.
The Australian national carrier hasn't said how many planes it will buy for the offshoot or how many planes it will use from its existing fleet. By mid-2005, the budget domestic airline will have a fleet of 23 aircraft.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon told reporters last Thursday that a recommendation will be put to Qantas' board early this week.
Qantas wasn't immediately available to comment on the plane order.
===========================================
Qantas Mgmt To Recommend Airbus For Discount Ops- Source
SYDNEY (Dow Jones)--Qantas Airways Ltd. management is expected to recommend to its board the acquisition of a number of Airbus A320s for its low-cost budget airline, according to an industry source Monday.
Qantas is believed to have told Boeing Co. late last week that it was unsuccessful in securing the contract for the budget airline, which will takeoff in May.
The Australian national carrier hasn't said how many planes it will buy for the offshoot or how many planes it will use from its existing fleet. By mid-2005, the budget domestic airline will have a fleet of 23 aircraft.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon told reporters last Thursday that a recommendation will be put to Qantas' board early this week.
Qantas wasn't immediately available to comment on the plane order.
===========================================
"His comments back up those of Virgin founder Richard Branson, who has poured scorn on Qantas's plans. "No other major airline in the world has successfully launched a discount airline," Sir Richard said. "
Yeah, but no other major airline made half a billion bucks last year either!!
Also,
"They've talked about it entering on to the leisure routes," Mr Godfrey said. "We don't make our money just on leisure routes. We've got 65 per cent of our capacity on the major routes, the triangle.
If even Brett Godfrey's believing the propaganda, maybe he's not as smart as I thought.
Yeah, but no other major airline made half a billion bucks last year either!!
Also,
"They've talked about it entering on to the leisure routes," Mr Godfrey said. "We don't make our money just on leisure routes. We've got 65 per cent of our capacity on the major routes, the triangle.
If even Brett Godfrey's believing the propaganda, maybe he's not as smart as I thought.
Amos,
Have to agree with the librarian, since the AN collapse there are many, many S/O's around with 7 years of RPT jet experience - both narrow and wide body.
This should be kept in mind by all keen to "stereotype" the junior QF pilot as fresh out of a cadetship with 200 hours and living with Mum and Dad in Pymble.
Have to agree with the librarian, since the AN collapse there are many, many S/O's around with 7 years of RPT jet experience - both narrow and wide body.
This should be kept in mind by all keen to "stereotype" the junior QF pilot as fresh out of a cadetship with 200 hours and living with Mum and Dad in Pymble.
