For those who are yet to come to ASA academy thought I would try and give my opinion (not necessarily the right one mind you).

The learning academy is good, it may have ****ty air conditioning and full of constant changes and confusing miss information, but it’s not a bad place to spend a year of your life. Sure we are getting disheartened a bit every time we hear of a fail or supplementary exam. Especially cause we see, as a group, no one is different from anyone else and that it’s so easy to miss one little thing (and that’s all it takes). Thankfully i've found good group support at the academy.

I don’t particularly like some of the comments about the academy that seem to be posted by people who aren’t directly connected in any way to it. My perspective....
The recruitment process is long and with very little encouragement to continue. I can imagine many people with more than one job offer going for the other due to the lack of communication in the months waiting to hear about the next phase or what course you’re on if successfully on the merit list. Good luck.

With the original material sent out, it’s not obvious how much they want you to do. Basically as much as you can with the time you have. I only got the material when I got down to the Melb temporary accommodation 1 week before the course started. There is a test the first week but it’s not a huge thing just to set you on the right track (note: there are lots and lots of test). If you have nothing to do in the weeks prior to the course it will help you a lot to read as much of the ARM as possible, otherwise look at the sections referenced in the selected questions.

The first theory block is basiacally sitting in the same chair everyday listening, so be ready for it. Teaching styles of the instructors vary immensely . In the end you get all the material necessary though (not necessarily in the best method) but easy enough for most. You end up going through subjects so quickly you pretty much have finished it before it’s even started, not much time for cementing ideas. I’m still unsure about lines like “we want everyone to pass” as it seems to be handed out like candy. All I know is everyone in the academy works damn hard and there are a lot of 100% in exams flying around (not me... I’m not that smart).

Unfortunately the way the college works you don’t even get to ‘pretend’ to be an air traffic controller until months into the course. Doesn’t really help connect the theory with anything (in my perspective) and also made it hard for us to know if we even suited the job until we finally got to put a headset on.

Thankfully I really do feel at this stage, if you really want to be an air traffic controller and you work hard, getting through the academy it’s achievable. Although there are many hurdles to jump over, it takes a lot of self confidence and the ability to just keep going. If you’re indecisive... think hard because the learning curve continues to rise.

Sept Course
 

For those of you waiting on an offer for the Sept course... it shouldn't be too long until you get a call. (If top of the Merit List)
2 people I know have been offered a spot. Monday 13th Sept If I recall correctly !!

Good Luck !!

Interesting that people are getting calls for September. I got a call saying they want to run me through a course starting November 1.

me too skiddy. A question for those in the know. How does leave work while on the course. Say if you had an important wedding to attend. Is this possible or are there set dates that you have to take?

Never used to be anything except public holidays, the odd training day for the instructors and the christmas period. We were told starting with course 36, and possible our course (35) there is supposed to be a week rostered off, i think after non-radar, which is about 6-7 months in. We have no idea when it is though. I have my brothers wedding to attend as well in england... told him 95% chance I won't make it. Unfortunate sacrifice i'm afraid

Out of curiosity, of people who have been offered places in Sept/Nov, are they for Melbourne or Brisbane?

Mine was a Melbourne en-route

caveman, as Mike says you don't get to choose. The course is run to a fixed schedule and anything you miss (through illness for instance) is up to you to catch up on. Fine for the odd day but any more and you'll never make it, particularly in the sim as there is very limited scope for extra runs.

Same here, Skiddy au...
I had my references checked in Jan and got offered a place last week to start in November... 17 months after starting the process... :eek:

Wow. I suggest that PPRUNE is not the place to learn about ATC or ATC'ers. The course is not really any different to any other workplace. There isn't the scope to pause everyone's training to head off overseas for a week. If you miss a day, fine you can catch that up. Probably even 2 or 3. A week or more you will have a lot to catch up on. Particularly if you are in the Sim phase, as you can't study that at home.

Most of the college instructor were ATC at one point. Most of the managers you will encounter there were not. I believe the lady in charge of the college is from NAB. Clearly not ex ATC.

As to whether lots of people can do the job, I don't know. The 11 on my course all go through and all eventually got rated. Other courses running concurrently only had pass rates in the vicinity of 50%.

As to work life balance, if you chose not to do overtime you can, but the company will want an reason based on our agreement.

Blippy, get a grip. Would you care to nominate other jobs that allow you to take leave whenever you want? The rest of the course won't just sit around waiting for you to return.

Have you considered that the "attitude" that relatively few people can do ATC is derived from decades of experience & not just the last few years? Certainly the starting pay & wait doesn't help with attracting the best.

As Awol says most managers are just that, managers without ATC experience. And you can't just waltz in & use the sim whenever you want, if you miss a sim session it's gone - resources are finite.

If you miss an exam at uni you get to sit the sup exam - they don't hold another session especially for you. If you miss a lecture, tutorial, lab session, field trip, etc. they don't run it again especially for you. You make it up as best you can.

"Living a delusion"? Oh dear..... The fact is unless you apply a separation standard fully it's no standard at all. 90% of a standard means you have no standard & have failed to separate. Hence the 100% requirement. You're dealing with 100s of lives. Get it wrong & you put those lives at risk. You don't have time to check through the books every time you apply a standard so you need to know the rules you're applying 100%.

That's the job. Take it or leave it. We don't pretend to be perfect & all make mistakes, but if you aim to do things 100% correctly all the time you're more likely to achieve it.

If its any help, I thought the same 20 years ago and still do. Unfortunately its a catch 22. The theory is meaningless gibberish until you can see it in use, but you can't do any sim without at least the basic theory. I think all you can do is grit you teeth and try to learn the theory and trust it will make sense later. Fair warning though, some of it won't ever make sense :).

Blippy - if you think 12 to 18 months hanging round waiting and then a year in the college, and not being able to take a week off whenever you want is too big a sacrifice, may I politely suggest you are not yet ready to enter the workforce, let alone ATC.

I don't think everyone can do ATC, but I don't think its a small % either. What is a small % is the people who can do it, and who want to. The responsibility and shift work puts some people off, lots of people who could do it can do other things they prefer, and it never even crosses the minds of many.

Thanks Nautilus Blue
Good to see some passive posts
Definately enhancing my "gritting teeth" skills, but as I said, suprisingly I still do like it.

Blippy

Which ATC's are you talking about here?

Having read some of your previous posts, it is obvious you are not an actual ATC ( Air Traffic Controller ) i.e. someone who actually plugs in 24/7/365 and talks to aircraft.
From your view, on the periphery, enlighten me how 'ATC are responsible' for the current staff shortages.

Last EBA Civilair ( ATC Association ) asked for an increase from $35 K to $52K to attract better applicants to the profession. The newspapers, were ably fed this line and screamed that ATCs were asking for a 60+% increase in pay.

The fact of the matter was that Civilair was acknowledging that people were 'unwilling/unable to give up two years of their lives' to take a paydrop and maybe not reach the bar. No actual ATC, paying for their Civilair membership, was going to get a 60% payrise but were keen to get a higher calibre of new entrant to apply. Hopefully we would get an alleviation of the staff shortages somewhere down the track.

Here we are 6+ years on, and desperately short of controllers, and you have the temerity to say it is the ATCs fault.

And I'm sure you are wrong. When people are on contracts with KPIs something has to give. The target the individual is aiming for may well be at odds with what the organisation is tasked with doing. The politics of 'resource hogging' i.e. one area keeping staff so that they can continue with projects, whilst another area is desperate for operational controllers has been going on for years.

G'day all,

This one paragraph tells all that is wrong with ATC training, not just Airservices Academy. People like you spend years trying for selection (while the world and other careers pass by) then, once selected, face very high-pressure training - all without any real indication that you actually have the ability to do the job. Psychometric Testing goes part of the way (if you get to that stage), but it doesn't test for actual ATC skills. Once on course the pressure really mounts, because there is a time limit - you can't go and take extra lessons and re-sit exams like people training for any other career can. And, the peer pressure (not wanting to be the one that falls) is all-consuming. Which is why there is a wide variation in success rate between courses that have been selected by the same testing process. Once someone fails the jitters really set in and the big snowball is waiting to escape.

All of this I was deeply exposed to during my years as an instructor at Airservices College, as it was called then. I saw so many young people go through the fires of hell, just to get through training. The stress of it is far worse than that of actual ATC. I retired for the one purpose of doing something about the flawed selection and training process. Computers have improved dramatically in recent years and PC-based practical training and simulation are now readily available, and at minimal cost compared to the formal set-up.

This is a forum and I am not out to advertise here, but that quote prompted me to contribute to the thread. Can I just suggest you do a Google and YouTube search for ATCX.

I can empathise with what you are all going through, but be assured there is no career like ATC, just keep at it and don't let anyone or anything stand in your way.

Rgds

Deleted - O/T and probably wrong.

Nautilus Blue.

Not sure I understand how that can teach bad habits? I've worked sectors with the CTA base displayed, whilst my current unit has the lowest assignable displayed.
I found it unusual at first, but once you know the airspace, it's a non-issue.

NB,

I can't reply as I would like to here because it would sound like a commercial for VV so look for a PM from me. 5miles is dead right in what he says about that issue though.

Microbee ...... hmmmm .... memories. :)

CLAMES

I haven't read this whole thread, so this may have been suggested before ...

Could ASA not implement an "ATC Screening" procedure in the early stages. I know they have their psychometric testing ... but why not something like RAAF "Flight Screening" ?

It could be along the lines of the, I think it's called, "ATC Awareness Program" they run for staff ... a 4 day crash course in ATC in the SIM.

Surely that would weed out those who:

• Don't have the aptitude
• Don't have the interest

A chance for the candidates to see what it's really like and a chance for ASA to see what the candidates learning ability is like.

Yes, extra time and cost ... but perhaps a trial might show that the successfully selected candidates have a much higher final pass rate

I'm sure the RAAF has found that to be true ... otherwise they wouldn't be wasting their money on it.

Also been booked in for Nov 1 - course of 12 - 6 Melb enroute and 6 Bris enroute ... I am one of the Brisbane ones ... always assuming we skip nicely through the medical of course ;)

And what exactly was Civil Air's method?

Blippy i take it you were rejected from your application?, why do you call yourself Blippy? (employees of ASA know what that means), i'm interested why a 65 year old is so passionate about ATC recruitment?

Blippy, instead of making the sweeping generalisation "in other training environments and jobs it is possible to obtain leave when you need to" how about providing an example? In particular one involving group training from a similar type of job to ATC.

Of course it's possible to know 100% of a limited set of knowledge. To be (ever so slightly) facile, you know your alphabet I presume? You even agree "ATC's must know their separation standards" - pretty hard to achieve that without knowing them 100%. As I said, anything less than 100% of a standard is no standard at all.

I'd argue ATC is not a perfectionist culture - knowing the rules is only one part of the job. A bigger part is applying those rules & there are many ways to skin that cat, some better than others. When you're busy you don't have time for perfection (as in finessing a situation) - safe & reasonably close is good enough.

People and change (the ones that run the company really) have no ATC experience. The only managers that are ATC or ex ATC are generally ALM's, checkies, UTS and SDL's.

There are hundreds of manager level positions within the company. To presume they all came from a core base of about 900 ATC's is interesting.

I have friends in the RAAF, when they went to OTS they couldn't get leave to attend a wedding in another state. I suppose another example of inflexibility and not the best way to do things.

If you don't want to do shift work, then ATC is probably not the job for you. Part of that shift work is taking leave when its available. Sure you might be able to get short term ad hoc leave in the field, and we have things like bereavement leave like most others but it boils down to you organising a swap with someone else.

Just curious Blippy, do you currently or previously work for ASA?

Hi to all,

I have also recently been given a verbal offer starting November 1. Very much looking forward to what lies ahead....

One question perhaps for the established guys, what is the general roster pattern for ATC? Do you have much of a say as to what shifts you want to work etc working mon-fri days only? Or does everybody work the same shifts on a rotating basis?

As a current shift worker I am use to the ups and downs that come along with working odd hours but I just wanted to know what sort of shifts I am in for once training is completed. Or should I say if.... :)

Hey maddog, congrats!

When did ASA check your references? I'm trying to find out where I am on the OOM! LOL

MadDog, it very much depends on where you end up. Working only Monday to Friday is very unlikely, as is being able to choose your shifts. You'll be assigned a line on the roster & progress though it, repeating the roster typically over a 6 or 8 week period.

You may not start off working doggo shifts (2300-0600 plus or minus) if you don't have the necessary ratings. In which case you might work a couple of afternoon shifts followed by a couple of morning shifts. Otherwise a typical cycle is 1500-2300, 1200-2000, 0600-1300, 2300-0600, off, off. Rinse & repeat with the odd block of afternoons/mornings thrown in.

Each group of sectors has different requirements due to traffic patterns & rosters are written to account for this.

Note the 2300 start is the same day as the 1300 finish.

Thanks for the info guys. Very helpful.

Nick83: My references were contactd in Marh and I did't receive my verbal offer until last week. So patience is the name of the game as hard as it is to hear that but I'm sure your time will come no doubt.

2 questions:

1.) A question for current trainees more so: Is a laptop an essential item for the training college process?

2.) General question that anybody may or may not have an answer to: If I was to ask what is the overall percentage of trainees who make it through and get a final rating, would 50% success rate be right or would I be overshooting the mark?

I keep reading posts about having a "Plan B" which is useful advice but I guess it would help to know what the odds would be of having to go to that Plan B.

Thanks guys

q1) No you wont need a laptop, no one brings one out in class(that i know of). Most people type out study/review notes so a computer at home will surfice (I'm sure you could do it all on paper though). There are computers to use at the academy.

q2) you'll get many mixed answers and if you read back through the 51 odd pages you'll find some.

congrats on getting through

I mentioned on another thread about the "us and them" attitude in AsA. Here, you have it displayed.

As has been mentioned, sep standards are among the aspects of ATC that require 100% knowledge. Daunting as this is, they are consolidated in the sims. There is nothing like seeing things in context to reinforce their importance and effectiveness.

Australian ATC has a strong focus on separation assurance. This approach looks at conflict avoidance rather than conflict resolution, as well as clever design of airspace, air routes etc. Examples of this are STARs (Standard Arrival Routes) and SIDs (Standard Instrument Departures), where aircraft come in and out of arerodromes on 'rails', racetrack patterns (to help avoid nose-to-nose) and cruising levels ( odd levels head east, even levels head west).

The idea is that were you to drop dead whilst on duty, aircraft would never hit according to the last instructions they received.
You may have aircraft on converging tracks and whilst they may be separated for the short term, they are relying on further instruction to keep them separated - this is not separation assurance.
I understand that many International controllers initially struggle with this concept (as well as Ab-initios!)

The rules and regs form the framework of the 'science' of ATC. The 'art' is the proactive way you apply these standards to get traffic moving.

Other checklists are available at your station to assist in everything from abnormal or emergency operations, to simpler things like conversion tables to cater for our American friends. You are expected to know the basics, but there is plenty of ref material around for these situations, as well as support from neighboring sectors and supervisers/ line managers.

Although in many respects it may be viewed as a perfectionist culture, there are many systems in place to help you do your job effectively, but most importantly, safely.

Ab-initios may be wet behind the ears, but we are not stupid, nor are we blind to the 'horror stories'. Although we appreciate any advice or warnings, our opinions, at the end of the day, will be formed by our own experiences (good or bad). I believe this is called 'life'.

Some have advised us to "run and not look back". If this is a career we'd like to have a crack at, what, then, are our options? Do we move to NZ and pay for a course with no guarantee of a job? Do we change our nationality and religion and become locals in some desert place?

Would anything get done anywhere if everyone decided not to attempt anything because it sounded too difficult?

For the moment, I think I'll just keep on keeping on :)

Blippy, any job is potentially one mistake away from unemployment if the f*ck up is big enough & ATC is no different. That "one mistake" referred to isn't just any old mistake (as you seem to assume) but a really big one. We just have many opportunities every day to make it.

A manager with ATC experience is still a manager & answers to a CEO & board who have no ATC experience. Those with no ATC experience call the tune & set the agenda. If a manager with ATC experience wants to stay a manager he plays by their rules & says "yes" a lot.

Hostile to newcomers? Hmmm, maybe. But then again we're playing a high stakes game & must have commensurately high standards. The job is at times challenging & maybe an element of that is reflected in the course, necessarily so.

Are you aware why we have a staff shortage? It has nothing to do with the style of training or pass rate.

Hi everyone,
I'm currently on course and looking for another roommate, so if you're starting a course this year, email me at [email protected] to find out more!

Thanks :)

I wonder if this site actually has moderators.
Seems like a lot of off topic conversation (including some of my posts) for "Airservices Australia Psychometric Testing"
And I know it gets monitored by Asa/ instructors/ managers but there must be a better way to get everyones ideas, thoughts and opinions out than this anonymous slag site. It's obvious that everyone has a lot to say about a lot of things.

I remember last year finding this site for guidance/ ideas about what this job had in stall for me. Amongst all the bitter and nasty comments there were snipits of help on the testing phase, interviews and initial academy work but I definately didn't get a warm/ welcoming feeling. Actually on the contrary, I got a "you're whats wrong with asa" on my 2nd post when asking what overtime was expected.

I just hope the new people reading this thread take it for what it is.

Blippy sorry about the personal attack.
I should know better than to post whilst "tired and emotional".

AA

Anyone on the Sept course?
 

just wondering if anyone on Sept course, if so please PM me......:ok:

found 2 anymore on course?

Hey Fivel,
Your face is what's wrong with asa!:O

Perky Perky Perky
We'll hug it out when i see you tomorrow

Huh? Do I even know you?:confused: