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Plazbot 25th May 2010 09:16

Of course that is just a hypothetical as I would not condone purchasing illegal alcohol and always use my licence at designated outlets.........

ferris 25th May 2010 09:56

Since you guys have de-railed this thread, I thought I'd join in.

What is this "lifestyle" that I hear so much about? Whenever I go back, I find that oz is a beautiful place, but I would have trouble describing anyone I know as having a fab lifestyle (especially ATCs). What I see are people enslaved to massive mortgages, ATCs who work a lot, many people whose main social activity is watching TV (often due to financial constraints). It was pointed out to me by a visitor as well; she was very impressed with the country and all it has to offer, but was amazed that few seemed to be taking advantage of that- until I explained housing costs to her. ATCs might not be that short of a quid, but their opportunity to enjoy it is certainly limited. The lifestyle is a myth.

Anyway- get the license, then, at least, you have choices.

mrfancypants 25th May 2010 11:17

"$229824 AUD (at today's exchnge rate 81.5 to the US) NET/Year Plus bonus(http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/yeees.gif) plus medical which sees you about 10 bucks a visit out of pocket for just about anything."

That figure includes about 70k of rental plus other allowances though doesnt it. Plus a couple of other smaller allowances. Not saying it's not a great package, it is, but thats the whole deal isnt it, not just salary.
Looking much better than this time last week too!!

Plazbot 25th May 2010 11:35

Lump sum payment. Every month, 56908 AED hits you bank account as a GCAA ATC. Do what you want with it. Nothing is use it or lose it like days gone by nor is it less if you don't have kids/wife/ect. Single guy gets the same as married with 3 kids. Send me a messge if you want the realities of where that kind of money goes.

I did reopen this thread for a different reason, and that was to say that Ferris is right (I think that is the first time that phrase has ever been used on Pprune). ATC is rad, get yourself a licence and you have options galore. Stay in OZ or take your pick of the many places that want you elsewhere. Don't let the talk of a disgruntled few steer you away from it as the physical job of ATC was not what drove any of us to other ANSPs. For those OZ ATCs reading this and umming and aaahing about making a sand change, I suggest getting your finger out as you WILL miss the boat soon as the contingent gets too big.

Funk 25th May 2010 13:34

DP lifestyle wise in the pit no BS in the last 10 days went sailing with a Sth African mate, mountain bike riding with some Pommie friends, played indoor hockey (Innebandy) with some Swedish mates and rode my Ducati on the track in Dubai...life is what you make it...or is it a box of chocolates?

Note for trainees physical activities are good excuse for beer drinking or finding new beer drinking buddies :}

DirtyPierre 27th May 2010 07:09

Plaz,

Good to hear from you. How's the surf?

Mate, XXXX???!!! Can't you get something good that's local? What's the point of going overseas if you're going to drink the beer from home?

Funk,

You've got all that sand and no surf. That's just not right!

And to ferris

The lifestyle is a myth.
Tell that to the bloody hundreds of Brissos flooding the Gold and Sunshine coasts every weekend.

Mate, I have got a great lifestyle. In fact I'm going down to spend the next few days at GC and expect to find a nice little bank with about a 2-3ft gentle wave. Mixed in with a little live sport, and a few glasses of those great wines we make here in Oz and a barbie by the pool in the arvo with my mates.

That's just in my day's off.

Cowabunga dude!:ok:

etz 28th May 2010 10:32

What do they know of Australia, who only Australia know?

Plazbot 28th May 2010 19:48

While we continue to hijack this thread like an American 757, let me just add that as for lifestyle, I suggest discussing the realities of that with people that were in the pit after 2006 and work for the GCAA not Serco. Post GFC, Marina completition and with the migration of many (and all of the recent OZ joiners) to Dubai with the plumeting rent prices, you may find that the stories you heard are vastly different to what it is like today. I will concede DP that there is indeed a lack of good surf but days like today, with the wind there is a mal surfable wave right infront of my place. The coolest part is that unlike Greenmount where I used to get a wave, I can walk across the road without being beat up by gangs of bogans. I don't have a board here but get in with the fins and catch a few before work... in the 24 hours between shifts or on my 4 days off (see lifestyle). Why I was even able to catch the Origin, with a few jars at the Barasti (beach bar a $3 cab ride away) this week. 7 OZ dollar pints (see lifestyle). Off to see Le tour in a few weeks as well. Things are looking up as I work pretty much 18 days off a month for the rest of the year to take the leave I got (lifestyle). I had 18 days approved (14 consecutive) in the 18 month leave planner that was last released before I left OZ on Tops (lifestyle?)

And for those keeping score, my pb from the front of the ACC to the lights at the front of my building is 38 minutes. It took me 39 today to my car park as I had to wait one change. Yesterday, I had to go into Abu Dhabi to do some stuff at immigration for my maid (see lifestyle)and it took me 40 minutes to get the 30 odd kays to the ACC from not even close to down town and I was a LONG way from where most of the guys live. Khalifa City/Raha Villas is a different story but see the comments re: lifestyle.

I am gunna check out of this thread now, seriously, probably.......:oh:

XXOOXX

enemyMiG 29th May 2010 12:02

Time for an update for those interested, hijacked 757s not withstanding...

Finished our "Authorised Weather Observers" course last week. Quite interesting. I hadn't realised how much detail went into actually recording the observations compared with the resulting, and much simpler, METAR/SPECI.
We got to see a weather ballon get set up, filled (hydrogen no less) and released, and later checked out the resulting data. I get the impression that met guys REALLY enjoy their work. (although there were fewer beards around than we were expecting)

So, after 9 weeks Theory, 10 weeks Blippying, and the week-long Met course, we finally made it into the sims this week.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Whilst blippying you start to think 'How hard could it be?' Clear this guy to land, that guy to take-off, move some vehicles around a bit, pass some traffic information.

Now I know better, and the scary thing is that I know how little I know. (Rumsfield's known unknowns?)

The phrase "sweating bullets" comes to mind.

Time management is the be-all and end-all of the job. And you can only give yourself time to manage what's happening around you if your phraseology, and the mechanics of filling out strips and moving them around are second nature.
If you can save just 2 seconds every minute through not having to think about how you're going to phrase something, then every hour, that's an extra 2 minutes up your sleeve to process what's going on around you. Doesn't sound like much, but when you are getting hammered from all directions, it adds up to a whole lot.

So newbies coming in: PHRASEOLOGY, PHRASEOLOGY, PHRASEOLOGY

It is amazing how real everything becomes after 20 mins in the sim. It doesn't feel like a videogame any more. Your heartrate goes up and the adrenalin kicks in.
The sickening realisation that you've cleared someone to land on one runway, and cleared someone else to take-off on the crossing runway is just horrible. Don't think I'll make that mistake again.

I thought that Theory was a roller-coaster, but it's nothing on this. After a day in the sims, your legs are shaky and you are mentally exhausted. I understand now why you don't do more than two 2-hour sims per day.

It's vital that you have the tenacity to keep at it though, because the lows really suck, but when something clicks and you do something right, the highs are just incredible.

It is a real buzz, and I can't think of anything that even comes close to this whole experience.

DMCman 30th May 2010 10:34

Thanks for sharing your experiences enemyMiG, you must be really excited! It gives people like me, who are not allowed to apply because they didn't do English in year 12, something to strive for... Now I have to go out and get a degree (as my only reasonable option!)

enemyMiG 30th May 2010 11:25

No probs DMCman

Our group are all in their 30's, married with kids, so the odds are there's plenty of time for you to complete Yr12 English and do what you have to to get in.
You never know how life will pan out when you start sticking fingers into various pies.

Good Luck:ok:

mikethepomme 30th May 2010 11:41

DMCman - A diploma will also give you a tick in the box

phat controller 30th May 2010 11:50

Couldn't have said it better myself Enemy Mig!
After the first time in the sim, I was beginning to question whether I had what it takes to be a tower controller. Especially after striving for such high standards in the theory phase of the course ( oh how I long for the days of the long contemplation). But with the support of my coursemates and a pep talk from the instructors "If you were born able to do this then we wouldn't have to train you." I got back on the horse and just had a go. :ugh:
Still early days but it's getting better. Listen to the instructors, they know what they're talking about and they have great tips on how to remember things. Have a plan B! Murphy's Law rules and through no fault of your own things will go astray, be prepared and don't let it get to you.
Looking forward to this week in the sim!

DMCman 1st Jun 2010 03:20

Thanks enemyMiG and mikethepomme. I was starting to think that being in my late 20's I would be considered too old! (Considering I have seen some international agencies won't hire over 30 y.o.) Going to go with the degree option just in case the whole plan falls through - personally a bit worried about the whole "only 2 attemps allowed" idea! However, this is something I've wanted to do for a while now and I'm gonna go for it all guns blazing.

le Pingouin 1st Jun 2010 05:30

DMC, the older you are the harder it will be for you. By the time you finish the degree & start the ATC course you'll likely be 5 years older than today. Doing it ASAP will give you the best chance of getting through.

A PPL is an option instead of the English requirement - cheaper than a tertiary course, quicker to obtain & you can keep working at your current job.

Funk 1st Jun 2010 10:49

I was 29 when I started my Ab Initio course and there were 2 others older than me by 5 years on the same course. Yes you will find it hard to move to DFS after AsA but the Sandpit hired me and others over the age of 40, the Irish when they were desperate hired guys over 45 years of age.

DMCman 1st Jun 2010 11:36

Thanks guys... le Pingouin, I don't really want to have to go the trouble of getting a degree, but on the financial side at least I can put it on HECS/HELP. Not so much for a PPL... but interesting point, I could work hard and save $15,000 or so to get it. Would be much quicker than 3-4 years. Believe me, I do want this ASAP!

Funk, thanks for the input and I know I'm going to sound like a total newbie but what is DFS and the Sandpit? I have seen this posted a lot around here. Cheers

max1 2nd Jun 2010 05:46

DFS= Germany.
The Germans were thinking of privatising, and seeing training and training departments are a negative on the books. They wound them down. Lo and behold privatisation didn't happen, and they have been playing catch-up ever since. Hence, lots of jobs over there.

Sandpit = Middle East. Dubai, Abu Dhabi , etc.

ASA management have come up with Service Delivery Environment (SDE), it has been underwhelming and has had a couple of other monikers including the Sandpit Deployment Exercise.

adc123 2nd Jun 2010 06:17

No idea if you would be able to do it, but would just sitting the PPL theory exams through CASA be good enough to meet the PPL requirement?? Might be worth a phone call to ASA to find out, it would be the cheapest, quickest and most relevant way to get the tick in the box

Roger Sir 2nd Jun 2010 07:10

If the whispers i`m hearing are anywhere near the truth the deployment exercise will continue for some time yet.

Abu Dhabi looking to increase staff by around 50% from 55 to 80-85 in the next 12 months.

DFS still recruiting.

Dubai still taking a few from OZ.

Instructors jobs going everywhere including possibly the good `ol U. S. of A.

No problems. The Academy down south is still churning out product ( apologies to current /future trainees but the current Academy manager considers you 'product'). How did the last course go? 2 out of 12 if the rumour is true.

At this state we should have the numbers up to square by 20??:D

le Pingouin 2nd Jun 2010 10:11

Blippy, do you have a link? I thought of that option but couldn't find whether it was possible to add it if you'd already completed year 12.

DMC, I don't think you pay the entire PPL cost up front - pay as you go because the number of hours taken depends on you.

DMCman 2nd Jun 2010 14:35

Blippy, looks like a good idea but they say you have to be a Vic resident (I'm from SA and doesn't seem to be an equivalent here).

max1, cheers for the clarification!

and le Pingouin - PPL is looking like a somewhat more viable option (possibly along with a diploma). Never considered it really before, but as you say I could continue to work at the same time. Also would be good to get an understanding of some basic aviation principles I would think.

le Pingouin 3rd Jun 2010 13:54

DMC, before dropping 10 or 15 grand on a PPL I'd suggest making a few phone calls. Start with Airservices - I have no idea if there is any leeway for the educational requirements but you may be able to gain recognition for something that would suffice. Probably helps if ya speaks proppa ;)

Next stop would probably be SACE - surely someone there would be able to advise your options for doing year 12 English in SA: www.sace.sa.edu.au Even the local high school might be worth a try.

Doing a PPL for the sake of gaining knowledge that will be relevant to ATC is a pretty expensive thing to do - the vast majority of relevant knowledge could be acquired by reading, asking questions & going for a few flights with the local aero club. By all means do it if you feel the need but not just for the sake of aviation knowledge.

DMCman 3rd Jun 2010 15:04

Thanks guys for the input, appreciate it. I have definitely been in touch with AsA recruitment in the past, in fact I think they must be sick of hearing from me :ouch: There is definitely no leeway and they have been very explicit in their responses - They will accept English courses only if it is judged as being the equivalent of Year 12 English by the respective state's secondary assessment board. In reality, this means having to do English during the school terms at an Adult Learning campus and sit the moderated exam at the end of the year with the other year 12's. (No bridging courses are judged as equivalent).

I tend to see more value in perhaps getting a 12 month Diploma in something I would be much better in (something heavily maths based). As mikethepomme said, it certainly puts a tick in the box.

Makes me wish I could have stuck with my Computer Science degree!! (but that's a different story).

Anyway I'll continue to read this thread with interest, glad to see there are people enjoying what they are doing (even though a few seem disillusioned at the moment!):ok:

rr007 5th Jun 2010 22:17

Good luck to all those starting ATC 37 and 41 tomorrow :D

PS Hope you've done your pre-course reading

If Only 8th Jun 2010 01:23

This thread makes some very interesting reading. Sounds like Oz ATC could do with lots of new people and need help retaining the ones they do have.

From an outside point of view there seems to be a very high failure rate which makes me wonder if a) they are using the right recruiting techniques to start with and b) they are trying to rush people through the course due to the shortage and therefore not giving the people on the course a fair go.

To me it does not make sense to only have 2 people out of a class of 12 pass, throw the other 10 away and start on the next batch. Would they not be better off giving those 10 who failed more training to get them up to speed? Or am i reading this wrong and they do do this already?

Toboto 9th Jun 2010 05:26

I think the recruiting is probably correct, the course length pretty much hasn't changed regardless of shortage, some courses have had everone go through to final field training, you do get some second chances if you fail an exam but they have to balance people getting a fair grasp on being an ATC and doing it well with the fact that a majority of the population probably can't do the job, and more or less they probably have the balance right, some might disagree, its not meant to be easy at all.

Chu Mai Huang 9th Jun 2010 12:06

"Parked":confused:
I bet new ATC's don't get a class on that.

watsup 10th Jun 2010 11:23

chu.....
Man,what have you been smokin??????

Made82 11th Jun 2010 07:00

Hello All,
Got told about this forum today and have spent most of the arvo reading it. I applied December last year and hoping to get through the testing in October. Just wanted to say thank you for the insight from previous people to give me an understanding of what is ahead of me, assuming i get in.

I can understand peoples opinoin that the wait is long, all i can say is that your not alone.

Showa Cho 12th Jun 2010 04:04

Interesting post Blippy. I think it's the first one you said - crap job at the right thing. However, as most in the ATC world know, controllers tend to do the best they have with the resources at hand. When the training system was hacked close to death a few years ago (hey, training takes up too much money - lets scale it back!), it made a dint in things so big that it will take quite a while to recover. Given the lack of controllers in the field, ops are reluctant to release controllers to the college.

I believe there are some new instructors arriving there at the moment, and I know there are lots of people who would love to work in Oz at the college. If they want more instructors, they should seriously consider quality overseas people and train them up in Oz ATC practices. I know some very experienced instructors who would love to work there, but get knocked back for having no Australian experience. Ab-initio trainees have no Oz ATC experience either, and they get trained up, so why not instructors?

Best of luck to those starting their course, those on course, and those about to finish.

Showa-cho.

Captain Homer 12th Jun 2010 06:36

anyone heard anything?
 
just wondering if anyone heard any updates for sept course?

ponti6 12th Jun 2010 06:42

Don't go blaming the college for the woeful performance of trainees, looking at the childish attitude shown here by the "hopefuls" one can begin to understand why they fail if they take the same appraoch when they plug in.

No not everyone can do the job, yes there are pitfalls in the whole process, but if you have the skills and application you will succeed.

It is not as easy and glamourous as those applying think it is, maybe they should spend more time studying what they need and listening to those that know rather blabing on with junk on here.....

fivel 12th Jun 2010 07:17

pointi6, so many things I could say to your ridiculous post, but since this forum is full of enough jaded, bitter ATCs it would seem useless.

Its great to see such a slagging match going on "anonymously" on this little gem of a forum.

ponti6 12th Jun 2010 10:54

winners dont need excuses

jrbridge 12th Jun 2010 13:21

O.K. guys. Time to squash some rumours. The previous course which you all keep speaking of started with 8. Yes, 2 finished and a third was transferred to the next course after he missed an exam for a funeral in NZ. Bit better odds now. Not all of the courses have the same odds. Just the luck of the draw. Some courses finish with nearly as many as they started with, some don't.
I don't think the academy is to blame. The instructors are all first class and will do anything to help people who help themselves. Everybody seems under the impression that once they get accepted, they are a sure thing. Probably a good way to think. But always keep a backup plan.

fivel 12th Jun 2010 14:19

Thanks for that info jrbridge

And pointi6 perhaps you could ride your high horse to somewhere snide remarks are considered constuctive and useful.

wolf_wolf 13th Jun 2010 03:39

Make no mistake guys - a pass at the college is absolutely NO guarantee you will even get a rating. You're not even half way there. Depending on where you end up can make a big difference (especially in enroute), but chickens shouldn't be counted until about 12 months AFTER you get your initial rating. Regardless of how extremely desperate the company may be to get you rated (and believe me they are possibly at their most desperate moment ever) OJTIs & Checkies don't give a toss, and if you are not 110% safe, you won't get up.

Good luck & may the force be with you...

Roger Sir 13th Jun 2010 09:48


and believe me they are possibly at their most desperate moment ever
IMHO there is no 'possibly' about it. We are in deep doodah and there is no sign of it getting better.

The last 12 months has seen an absolute gazzilion trainees making it to final field training. NOT!

If we`re not currently short staffed heaven help us when we are as the rumours of groups/towers/app units looking for staff grows daily. Most areas are now that short that nobody can be released, even if they have won a position elsewhere. We are talking years to get out of this mess provided we can source sufficient trainess or, if the whispers are correct, more global recruits.

Time for some dusty headsets to be put into action!:D

watsup 13th Jun 2010 10:23

:hmm: Rumour is that they have made offers to more than 20 experienced ex A.S.A controllers ,who could be fully rated within 4 or 5 months of starting.Know of 3 here in the sandpit going back later this year.


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