Airservices Australia recruiting
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Have you ever seen pigs at the trough? Some of them spend so much energy trying to block the others that they end up getting the least. Then squeal the loudest.
Sounds like politicians and managers have created this situation that overseas hires are needed? Little bit like why the middle east still needs overseas hires after all this time eh? Bit like why Canada had to hire from overseas for a while back there eh? Guess working there for the big money is different? Guess taking someone's job or training opportunity is OK when it's for your own gain eh?
The circle of life continues. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.
I have more witticisms but need to lie down now, so tired......
Sounds like politicians and managers have created this situation that overseas hires are needed? Little bit like why the middle east still needs overseas hires after all this time eh? Bit like why Canada had to hire from overseas for a while back there eh? Guess working there for the big money is different? Guess taking someone's job or training opportunity is OK when it's for your own gain eh?
The circle of life continues. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.
I have more witticisms but need to lie down now, so tired......
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For all you internationals out there who are thinking of applying, you will all be welcomed with open arms...don't worry too much about tossers like the one who started this thread. Got a bunch of internationals in my group, and all are a pleasure to work with, and great to have a beer with.
No Aussies are having any jobs taken off them, both academies are full to overflowing with young Aussie trainees, all of whom will benefit from the experience you guys will bring with you.
If we look at it the other way, how many Aussie ATC's in Germany right now? (At least a cricket team, some of whom are very close friends). How about the sandpit? Another cricket team right there.
PMS I dunno what your grudge is, my guess is either you, or one of your mates, was told 'no thanks' to be rehired by ASA ('FO overseas' I think was your quote). If that's the case, I'm sorry, but maybe there is a reason behind that?
No Aussies are having any jobs taken off them, both academies are full to overflowing with young Aussie trainees, all of whom will benefit from the experience you guys will bring with you.
If we look at it the other way, how many Aussie ATC's in Germany right now? (At least a cricket team, some of whom are very close friends). How about the sandpit? Another cricket team right there.
PMS I dunno what your grudge is, my guess is either you, or one of your mates, was told 'no thanks' to be rehired by ASA ('FO overseas' I think was your quote). If that's the case, I'm sorry, but maybe there is a reason behind that?
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Experienced Internationals at ASA
Not looking to screw any natives over, just curious (for now 
).
Looking over the info on Airservices careers page; 3-6 months for the recruitment process, another 3-12 months to find a course date.
A possible 18 months is a long time, how short of staff are they?
How long, as an experienced controller, could the field training period be? (Your best guess).
Would one be required to train and validate at a location most needed by AsA or can you apply for a posting at a unit of your choice, be that ACC, TWR, TCU, etc etc?
Cheers
).Looking over the info on Airservices careers page; 3-6 months for the recruitment process, another 3-12 months to find a course date.
A possible 18 months is a long time, how short of staff are they?
How long, as an experienced controller, could the field training period be? (Your best guess).
Would one be required to train and validate at a location most needed by AsA or can you apply for a posting at a unit of your choice, be that ACC, TWR, TCU, etc etc?
Cheers
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aussie jobs and 457 visas
tyler,
obviously you didn't read my earlier post, as I already mentioned Germany, so I covered that off pal.
I suspect you are in your mid to late 20's and airservices is your only ATC employment to date, so therefore NOT very worldly when it comes to ATC as your previous comments have shown.
If you knew anything about the middle east, which you don't, the "nationals" as they like to be called don't like to work much at all. All they want to do is be a manager and sit at a desk and get an expat to make the decisions, simple as that. its a cultural thing and unfortunately for them OR fortunately for expats, westerners fill those gaps, which are actually needed and will still be needed when you and I are both pushing up daisies.
In Oz we DON'T need foreign nationals to fill the void, we have plenty of young aussies who could be trained and plenty of very experienced 15 plus years of ATC experience peeps (in fact way more experience than a lot of these foreigners who are being hired) who would love to come back to AsA but are being knocked back because of the reasons I already mentioned, and as ferris said much mismanagement over the years.
Like you mate I have worked with many international ATC's, probably way more than you ever will and I am not doubting their creds here, just the fact we don't need them.
obviously you didn't read my earlier post, as I already mentioned Germany, so I covered that off pal.
I suspect you are in your mid to late 20's and airservices is your only ATC employment to date, so therefore NOT very worldly when it comes to ATC as your previous comments have shown.
If you knew anything about the middle east, which you don't, the "nationals" as they like to be called don't like to work much at all. All they want to do is be a manager and sit at a desk and get an expat to make the decisions, simple as that. its a cultural thing and unfortunately for them OR fortunately for expats, westerners fill those gaps, which are actually needed and will still be needed when you and I are both pushing up daisies.
In Oz we DON'T need foreign nationals to fill the void, we have plenty of young aussies who could be trained and plenty of very experienced 15 plus years of ATC experience peeps (in fact way more experience than a lot of these foreigners who are being hired) who would love to come back to AsA but are being knocked back because of the reasons I already mentioned, and as ferris said much mismanagement over the years.
Like you mate I have worked with many international ATC's, probably way more than you ever will and I am not doubting their creds here, just the fact we don't need them.
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Current employee here. Internationals are and will be welcomed. Work with a few here and they are great. They arent taking Aussie jobs we simply dont have the people to sit in the seat.
Not my only ATC employ either.
Given the tone and language of the post by PMS I think I can understand why someone may not wish to employ you if that tone would be continued into the professional world.
Not my only ATC employ either.
Given the tone and language of the post by PMS I think I can understand why someone may not wish to employ you if that tone would be continued into the professional world.
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They arent taking Aussie jobs we simply dont have the people to sit in the seat.
Guess taking someone's job or training opportunity is OK when it's for your own gain eh?
Leaving aside the large cost of hiring foreigners on 457s (they don't offer Australians $40grand as a sign on bonus
), none of you have addressed the damage these hirings have on staff movement, or are you all just loaded up on Kool Aid?I'm not suggesting those accepting the 457s will or should be treated any differently (AsA management incompetence is not their fault).
Last edited by ferris; 17th Jun 2014 at 09:40. Reason: clarify position on those accepting the jobs
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watching this thread with interest.
yes I agree PMS may a bit OTT but,
Let me ask everyone of you international controllers joining or have joined Airservices, if you were not here and back in your own countries and this was happening in your country, and there were your own experienced controllers attempting to be rehired by your own ANSP, and there were plenty of them to fill more than whatever void may be there, would you be happy with that state of affairs???
I bet you wouldn't, and even more so if it was one of you or even one of your kids wanting to break in to ATC but foreign nationals being hired instead, how would you feel??
Have a good hard think about it, and I bet I know what the answer will be.
Don't be too hard on pms as his point is very valid don't you think despite the way he made it.
yes I agree PMS may a bit OTT but,
Let me ask everyone of you international controllers joining or have joined Airservices, if you were not here and back in your own countries and this was happening in your country, and there were your own experienced controllers attempting to be rehired by your own ANSP, and there were plenty of them to fill more than whatever void may be there, would you be happy with that state of affairs???
I bet you wouldn't, and even more so if it was one of you or even one of your kids wanting to break in to ATC but foreign nationals being hired instead, how would you feel??
Have a good hard think about it, and I bet I know what the answer will be.
Don't be too hard on pms as his point is very valid don't you think despite the way he made it.
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Those applying must beware that the facility you are promised may not be the one you are sent to. It happened to me and needless to say I left. There are some pretty unpleasant places to work in that company.
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duane sounds like you may be an ex RAAFie, if so then no further explanation required if that's the case. If foreign national well same again and thanks for stealing a locals job.
This is discrimination from Airservices and its as simple as that. Up till now they have been able to get away with it but sooner or later the game will be up.
This is discrimination from Airservices and its as simple as that. Up till now they have been able to get away with it but sooner or later the game will be up.
...)
from ASA Workforce Plan 2013-2020
Workforce demographics
The average workforce age for the ATC group is 44.5, with 50 per cent of the group aged 45 years and over.
[By 2016/17, ATC Group could potentially lose up to 28 per cent of existing employees (approximately 325) to resignations (7 per cent) and retirements (21 percent).]
By 2019–20, ATC (Group) could potentially lose up to 46 per cent of existing employees (approximately 600) to resignations (14 per cent) and retirements (32 per cent).
A continual intake of 80 ATC trainees per year.
Workforce demographics
The average workforce age for the ATC group is 44.5, with 50 per cent of the group aged 45 years and over.
[By 2016/17, ATC Group could potentially lose up to 28 per cent of existing employees (approximately 325) to resignations (7 per cent) and retirements (21 percent).]
By 2019–20, ATC (Group) could potentially lose up to 46 per cent of existing employees (approximately 600) to resignations (14 per cent) and retirements (32 per cent).
A continual intake of 80 ATC trainees per year.
A continual intake of 80 ATC trainees per year
Being very optimistic we might cover attrition but where is the "bow wave" to allow training for the new system? Being realistic we're easily 100 short and probably plenty more over the next five years.
For some attempting to return the "corporate citizen" excuse is just short-sighted spitefulness. But for better or worse some probably burnt their bridges a little too well and have no chance.
It's really hard to see how 20 or even 50 overseas controllers hired in the next five years is doing Aussies out of jobs. Not unless AsA more than doubles the ab initio training intake and that just ain't gonna happen.
I do agree with Ferris that there is an impact on staff movements, but SDE has an impact too (no incentive for a manager to release staff to another manager) as does the general shortage.
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to all who have been reading this thread,
this is my final post on this topic.
my intention was not to offend any international hires or potential hires to AsA, so apology if that's what occurred.
The point I was trying to make and encourage discussion (I am very passionate about this - no apology there), was that as missy pointed out with the stats is that AsA is very and will be very short. There are plenty of ex AsA very experienced staff who want to come back which would help ease their shortage and future shortage issues, short term.
Additionally as pingouin pointed out the "not a good corporate citizen or cultural fit" excuse is not only "short sighted spitefulness" but from where I stand also discrimination and illegal under Australian law.
I want it on record that if AsA was to rehire all the so called problem children exp controllers back that it will not be enough to curb the tide of departures, but the fact is if this could be done and the locals were looked after first, I know the local rehires would be more than happy to welcome overseas controllers into the fold, but it has to start by looking after aussie citizens first.
vent complete, sorry to those I upset
this is my final post on this topic.
my intention was not to offend any international hires or potential hires to AsA, so apology if that's what occurred.
The point I was trying to make and encourage discussion (I am very passionate about this - no apology there), was that as missy pointed out with the stats is that AsA is very and will be very short. There are plenty of ex AsA very experienced staff who want to come back which would help ease their shortage and future shortage issues, short term.
Additionally as pingouin pointed out the "not a good corporate citizen or cultural fit" excuse is not only "short sighted spitefulness" but from where I stand also discrimination and illegal under Australian law.
I want it on record that if AsA was to rehire all the so called problem children exp controllers back that it will not be enough to curb the tide of departures, but the fact is if this could be done and the locals were looked after first, I know the local rehires would be more than happy to welcome overseas controllers into the fold, but it has to start by looking after aussie citizens first.
vent complete, sorry to those I upset
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Eons ago, 25 or more extremely experienced Australian Approach and Tower Controllers went to work in Hong Kong for the opening of the new airport.
Most had asked for 3 years leave without pay and were denied.
MisManagement thought we wouldn't go, and got a very rude shock when we did.
No thank you for 20 years of dedicated service.
Where I worked we were told " If you go, you WILL NEVER AGAIN work in Australian ATC.
Most had asked for 3 years leave without pay and were denied.
MisManagement thought we wouldn't go, and got a very rude shock when we did.
No thank you for 20 years of dedicated service.
Where I worked we were told " If you go, you WILL NEVER AGAIN work in Australian ATC.
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It seems you all knew the deal then.
Don't bitch about it now.
What were ASA supposed to do for three years while you were having nice time in honkers? Employ people and sack them when you deemed it a good time to return or just shut down a few towers and mothball them until you'd eaten enough dog?
Don't bitch about it now.
What were ASA supposed to do for three years while you were having nice time in honkers? Employ people and sack them when you deemed it a good time to return or just shut down a few towers and mothball them until you'd eaten enough dog?
Rule3
Yes, and I understand that ASA sent a senior manager to Honkers to stem the tide. It didn't work.
ANSPs had unwritten "no poaching" agreements but this has changed over the last decade or so, especially as some ANSPs do little or no training of ab-initios.
I'm surprised that Airservices haven't paid Airways to do their "top-up" training (to guarantee 100 rated ATCs each year) and/or a "loan" scheme of rated controllers working in Australia for 3-5 years.
Eons ago, 25 or more extremely experienced Australian Approach and Tower Controllers went to work in Hong Kong for the opening of the new airport.
Most had asked for 3 years leave without pay and were denied.
MisManagement thought we wouldn't go, and got a very rude shock when we did.
Most had asked for 3 years leave without pay and were denied.
MisManagement thought we wouldn't go, and got a very rude shock when we did.
ANSPs had unwritten "no poaching" agreements but this has changed over the last decade or so, especially as some ANSPs do little or no training of ab-initios.
I'm surprised that Airservices haven't paid Airways to do their "top-up" training (to guarantee 100 rated ATCs each year) and/or a "loan" scheme of rated controllers working in Australia for 3-5 years.