Spanish ATC
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Yup, give or take here and there but that's pretty normal.
And what about pilots?! Check this thread, it´s about RAYAnair, so I guess you can find even better conditions out there (maybe yours?):
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...ml#post5832168
Regarding your (OUR) privacy in the aviation industry, you sacrifice it in order to better avoid incidents/accidents in the future, not to provide excuses for your company in order to file a disciplinary action against you. Is that so hard to understand?
And revise how you value your own spare time, not ours, after all, we each are suposed to spend it as we choose, not as a company managers decides. Do you know the meaning of "Slavery"? As it has been previously mentioned in this thread, AENA can even make you work on a day off with almost no previous notice. If you also like that, well ... sado is not my game!
Directs and FL not filed ... hmmmm ... have you heard of Flight Plan Adherence?? Thats from EUROCONTROL, not from Spanish ATCO´s.
Once again, saludos!
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That'll be 900 flying hours a year. What you fail to grasp is that duty hours can be upwards of 1800pa.
No it isn't, but, again(!), if you haven't done anything wrong it won't matter. If you are trying to withhold that information because you're not complying with something then that is a different matter.
You chose to spend your free time earning "well paid overtime". That is what you valued your spare time as - extra money. Now you are having to work the same amount of hours as you were before but without overtime. It boils down to money at the end of the day and not the "extra" hours you have to work doesn't it?
Yep Eurocontrol flight plan adherence day was a couple of months ago. Why is Spain the only country in Europe that will not allow any flexibility?
not to provide excuses for your company in order to file a disciplinary action against you. Is that so hard to understand?
You chose to spend your free time earning "well paid overtime". That is what you valued your spare time as - extra money. Now you are having to work the same amount of hours as you were before but without overtime. It boils down to money at the end of the day and not the "extra" hours you have to work doesn't it?
Yep Eurocontrol flight plan adherence day was a couple of months ago. Why is Spain the only country in Europe that will not allow any flexibility?
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Cernicalo:
I couldn't really care about what you are fed up with cernicalo. Clearly you are a guy who doesn't care about anything but yourself, and has no regard for environment, colleagues, passengers or the airlines who keep us all employed, and that is why i can't respect you or your attitude at all.
It might be a surprise for you, but some of us actually care for especially the environment amongst the other things, and just because others pollute the planet (cars, airplanes, factory's - everything basically) doesn't mean we should just join that queue simply because Spanish ATC is a big kindergarten with very sloppy and un-proffesional attitudes.
If Spanish ATC want any kind of support and sympathy, they can start with being proffesional and safety minded with their so-called "service".
Had NATS controllers as an example called for better conditions, i believe most would fully support them, as they actually do provide a proffesional and very safety minded service that we all would like to maintain and build on.
Fed up reading the same nonsenses... 5 minutes fuel burn in a 2 hour 30 minutes flight is what is killing the planet... Maybe will kill it one day before! Next time, don't ask for high speed approach or departure!
It does not exist petrol based "Green" planes or cars. Its is just pure marketing. The problem is, we believe it!!!
It does not exist petrol based "Green" planes or cars. Its is just pure marketing. The problem is, we believe it!!!
It might be a surprise for you, but some of us actually care for especially the environment amongst the other things, and just because others pollute the planet (cars, airplanes, factory's - everything basically) doesn't mean we should just join that queue simply because Spanish ATC is a big kindergarten with very sloppy and un-proffesional attitudes.
If Spanish ATC want any kind of support and sympathy, they can start with being proffesional and safety minded with their so-called "service".
Had NATS controllers as an example called for better conditions, i believe most would fully support them, as they actually do provide a proffesional and very safety minded service that we all would like to maintain and build on.
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P.Perez
The following is why you have no public support and this information did not come from AENA, it came straight from the horses mouth, a senior tower controller. It is also something which is from at least 5 years ago, not something new since your recent dispute with AENA began.
This controller "took home" 8000 euros a month - maybe it wasn't true, maybe she just wanted us to feel bad. 8000 euros a month for working on average 3 days per week - 3 days per week. That was because all the hours which were supposed to be worked were volutarily crammed into 3 days, and on each day those hours which were in excess of a normal day were paid at overtime. This is what you refer to as extra duties. In english it's called "fiddling". More fool your employers for letting you get away with it although I believe they would probabely still be happy to let you get away with it now had not outside influences forced Spain to start putting its corrupt house in order.
The following is why you have no public support and this information did not come from AENA, it came straight from the horses mouth, a senior tower controller. It is also something which is from at least 5 years ago, not something new since your recent dispute with AENA began.
This controller "took home" 8000 euros a month - maybe it wasn't true, maybe she just wanted us to feel bad. 8000 euros a month for working on average 3 days per week - 3 days per week. That was because all the hours which were supposed to be worked were volutarily crammed into 3 days, and on each day those hours which were in excess of a normal day were paid at overtime. This is what you refer to as extra duties. In english it's called "fiddling". More fool your employers for letting you get away with it although I believe they would probabely still be happy to let you get away with it now had not outside influences forced Spain to start putting its corrupt house in order.
P_Perez,
A great summary of what's going on, thank you.
I don't understand this.
Basic salary means nothing! Whats the final package, the take-home pay?
From what I read, you have been doing this, without complaint and for excessive reward, for "the past years"
Why are you now complaining that AENA are increasing your hours from 1200 to 1670?
Is it because you are not going to be taking home the excessive overtime money? Surely you didn't expect such salaries to continue in a country that, like most of Europe, is broke?
A great summary of what's going on, thank you.
On the contrary: we have been working an average of 1700 hrs. in the past years (as the Spanish m/s-inister Jose Blanco has aknowledged), way over the European average, with a basic salary way below European average, and with not a single strike since 1986 ...
Basic salary means nothing! Whats the final package, the take-home pay?
From what I read, you have been doing this, without complaint and for excessive reward, for "the past years"
Why are you now complaining that AENA are increasing your hours from 1200 to 1670?
Is it because you are not going to be taking home the excessive overtime money? Surely you didn't expect such salaries to continue in a country that, like most of Europe, is broke?
Last edited by kick the tires; 18th Nov 2010 at 17:27.
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p-perez, amigo mio,
Let's stop trying to explain why we think ATM is following the same disastrous road airlines have followed and why we think that's urgent to stop this global way of management and let's work in the creation of our own company of air traffic control services...everybody will earn time and money...a lot...even our fellows stick in command...
Let's stop trying to explain why we think ATM is following the same disastrous road airlines have followed and why we think that's urgent to stop this global way of management and let's work in the creation of our own company of air traffic control services...everybody will earn time and money...a lot...even our fellows stick in command...
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Cmon-pullup,
Hey hey hey!!!!. You shouldn't take it to the personal terrain!
No more to say, in my behalf. Those are your words, not my thoughts or acts.
Hey hey hey!!!!. You shouldn't take it to the personal terrain!
No more to say, in my behalf. Those are your words, not my thoughts or acts.
I couldn't really care about what you are fed up with cernicalo. Clearly you are a guy who doesn't care about anything but yourself, and has no regard for environment, colleagues, passengers or the airlines who keep us all employed, and that is why i can't respect you or your attitude at all.
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Guys,
having loosely followed the topic on this and the ATC thread and admittedly not having read all posts I would like to share a view thoughts:
1. Given the reported shift in operational responsibilities away from Ops Room and Ops Room management structures is the full truth (I don't want to question it!), this way of managing an ATS organization is totally unacceptable in this age of "safety culture".
2. I think all of us should support the restoration of sound operational decison making - also in a hierarchical structure - in Spanish ATS again.
3. With the widespread support for the restoration of a functional ATS system based on widely accepted management principles, there shouldn't be a requirement anymore for Spanish ATCOs to let the aviation industry "feel the pain".
4. Controllers and Flight Dasta staff in Spain have my sympathy for suffering from a very drastic change in their working conditions, not the least in a dramatic cut in the take-home money. Having said that, however, I have to admit that I do feel that things were completely out of hand in previous years.
5. Having worked myself in Air Traffic Services for almost 41 years - 37 of them as area radar controller in busy Central European airspace - I would like to call upon my Spanish colleagues to fight for the safe operations of Spanish ATS offensively and publicly, but not see pilots or their employers, aka airlines, as their oppononents. You will need support if you want to succeed, you probably can't get anywhere by making everyone your adversary!
Good luck!
having loosely followed the topic on this and the ATC thread and admittedly not having read all posts I would like to share a view thoughts:
1. Given the reported shift in operational responsibilities away from Ops Room and Ops Room management structures is the full truth (I don't want to question it!), this way of managing an ATS organization is totally unacceptable in this age of "safety culture".
2. I think all of us should support the restoration of sound operational decison making - also in a hierarchical structure - in Spanish ATS again.
3. With the widespread support for the restoration of a functional ATS system based on widely accepted management principles, there shouldn't be a requirement anymore for Spanish ATCOs to let the aviation industry "feel the pain".
4. Controllers and Flight Dasta staff in Spain have my sympathy for suffering from a very drastic change in their working conditions, not the least in a dramatic cut in the take-home money. Having said that, however, I have to admit that I do feel that things were completely out of hand in previous years.
5. Having worked myself in Air Traffic Services for almost 41 years - 37 of them as area radar controller in busy Central European airspace - I would like to call upon my Spanish colleagues to fight for the safe operations of Spanish ATS offensively and publicly, but not see pilots or their employers, aka airlines, as their oppononents. You will need support if you want to succeed, you probably can't get anywhere by making everyone your adversary!
Good luck!
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Any of you ?
Cernicaloa, p-perz, any fo you
I am deliberately leaving out any reference to the very few exceptionally good spanish controllers who were quoted to "earn" cerca 800 or 900k per year. But can one of you please start to try to explain why you think the "average" spanish controller at somewhere close to 300k per year is worth 4 times more than the average controller anywhere else in the world ?
I'm not interested in your internal bleatings, it's just a simple question.
I am deliberately leaving out any reference to the very few exceptionally good spanish controllers who were quoted to "earn" cerca 800 or 900k per year. But can one of you please start to try to explain why you think the "average" spanish controller at somewhere close to 300k per year is worth 4 times more than the average controller anywhere else in the world ?
I'm not interested in your internal bleatings, it's just a simple question.
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I am deliberately leaving out any reference to the very few exceptionally good spanish controllers who were quoted to "earn" cerca 800 or 900k per year. But can one of you please start to try to explain why you think the "average" spanish controller at somewhere close to 300k per year is worth 4 times more than the average controller anywhere else in the world ?
1.- The "average 300k" (which our union USCA has denied repeatedly) comes from the the same Spanish minister that is using Spanish ATCO´s as scapegoats to avoid explaining why a company (AENA) that was profitable until 2006, grows a debt by 2010 (in only 5 years!!!) of 13.000 million € (= 13.000.000.000 €); just to compare, that´s almost half of the amount used by EU for the bailout of the economy of Greece. Where did all this money go?? Not to our fellow ATCO´s pockets!!
2.- When the false amount of 300k is used as an argument, comparing it to the salaries of other European ATCO´s, not a single time the hours worked per year are also mentioned. In EU, the average is 1350 hrs. a year, which also include training. We in Spain have been working an average over 1700+ a year (no traning included, 500+ hrs. of voluntary overtime). Overtime was AENA´s decision instead of training more ATCO´s, and of course it had to be better paid than basic/ordinary hrs., no?
I have repeated this information several (in fact, MANY!!!) times, but it has been ignored because I´m afraid there is no interest to leave aside the bias that sadly is present when information is manipulated with so much skill. It´s human nature!
Saludos!
Last edited by p_perez; 22nd Nov 2010 at 21:34.
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Closures of spanish airspace during december
As you might be aware of, spanish regulations concerning how many hours any ATCO might work have been changed several times this year.
The last indication mandates that no Atco should work more than 200 hours per month and 1670 per year. This figure was obtained not out of any safety studies but basically following the estimates of Aena's needs for the year.
However, they made a miscalculation since from the 15th of May onwards the government barred from frecuency any controller aged 57+. They have been able to recover their job as of last month but the rest of the staff had to do huge amounts of shifts (never mind those 200 hours/month) in order to cover their posts during the summer season.
As a consecuence of this many Atcos have (or will in the next weeks) get over their maximum legal limit. As of yesterday Santiago TACC has been the first to reduce their operational capabilities but other centres are expected to follow (Madrid ACC by mid-december I believe).
Since Aena is now developing "creative accountancy" for the hours worked during the year, they have stated that no atco is or will be over the maximum. I would not like to get into detail of what they claim (if anybody really feels they need it I will oblige, of course) but controllers will refuse to work over the legal maximum.
You will hear a lot till next years of those evil spanish atcos going yet again on a covert strike in order to get their monstrous privileges back... ignore that propaganda for the masses I trust you are better informed than that.
The last indication mandates that no Atco should work more than 200 hours per month and 1670 per year. This figure was obtained not out of any safety studies but basically following the estimates of Aena's needs for the year.
However, they made a miscalculation since from the 15th of May onwards the government barred from frecuency any controller aged 57+. They have been able to recover their job as of last month but the rest of the staff had to do huge amounts of shifts (never mind those 200 hours/month) in order to cover their posts during the summer season.
As a consecuence of this many Atcos have (or will in the next weeks) get over their maximum legal limit. As of yesterday Santiago TACC has been the first to reduce their operational capabilities but other centres are expected to follow (Madrid ACC by mid-december I believe).
Since Aena is now developing "creative accountancy" for the hours worked during the year, they have stated that no atco is or will be over the maximum. I would not like to get into detail of what they claim (if anybody really feels they need it I will oblige, of course) but controllers will refuse to work over the legal maximum.
You will hear a lot till next years of those evil spanish atcos going yet again on a covert strike in order to get their monstrous privileges back... ignore that propaganda for the masses I trust you are better informed than that.
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Was out of Madrid for London last week, established in the cruise at FL 360, had requested FL 380 (the airway UN858 is a nominated 'Even' FL airway). Saw on the TCAS that there was a target directly above us at FL380. Peered forward and upwards & there he was, a generally white-colored 737-800. Not 30 seconds later ATC called and cleared us to climb FL 380. My incredulous response that there was traffic above us a FL 380 was met with a stunned silence, followed shortly afterwards by a clearance to climb, non-standard (not that that was mentioned) to FL370 which we maintained for at least 25 minutes until just before the Bordeaux boundary and the traffic above diverged and we climbed 380.
Have requested direct often from Spanish controllers and got it a few times in the Madrid & Domingo sectors but Barcelona seem completely unwilling to offer any shortcuts.
The approach, tower & ground controllers are generally OK but, in my experience, the area controllers are pretty miserable, both in their demeanor and ability.
Have requested direct often from Spanish controllers and got it a few times in the Madrid & Domingo sectors but Barcelona seem completely unwilling to offer any shortcuts.
The approach, tower & ground controllers are generally OK but, in my experience, the area controllers are pretty miserable, both in their demeanor and ability.
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Spanish ATC, They are not able to stablish an approach sequence between for example Cessna 172 and Boeing 737 because these controllers are not familiar with the aeronautical atmosphere. It´s a pity.
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4HolerPoler,
One of my pet gripes as a controller is receiving a call for another level from pilots in TCAS-mandatory airspace when they can see aircraft that could conflict with their climb/descent. It's especially nasty in the case where the call is made in a head-on scenario before the aircraft have actually passed. You might think, from your perspective, that it's an easy call for the ATCO, and 99 times out of a hundred, you would be right. However, these days, in our increasingly complex and busy airspace, we need you to help for that one time in a hundred, when we can't see the wood for the trees, to assist us in our job to keep you safe.
Seeing as you're a moderator, please don't ban me
One of my pet gripes as a controller is receiving a call for another level from pilots in TCAS-mandatory airspace when they can see aircraft that could conflict with their climb/descent. It's especially nasty in the case where the call is made in a head-on scenario before the aircraft have actually passed. You might think, from your perspective, that it's an easy call for the ATCO, and 99 times out of a hundred, you would be right. However, these days, in our increasingly complex and busy airspace, we need you to help for that one time in a hundred, when we can't see the wood for the trees, to assist us in our job to keep you safe.
Seeing as you're a moderator, please don't ban me
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Have received direct routing in the last week from Madrid, Seville and BCN control.
Have heard a lot of Vueling and Spanair traffics usibg English within Spanish airspace too.
Skills need to be improved and we can help a lot by making assertive and positive inputs.
Have heard a lot of Vueling and Spanair traffics usibg English within Spanish airspace too.
Skills need to be improved and we can help a lot by making assertive and positive inputs.
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Spanish NOTAM
Hello!
As you already know, in feb. this year, the Spanish Goverment increased by law the hours/year for Spanish ATCO's, from 1200 to 1670.
Due to AENA's mismanagement, this increase will not be enough to provide control service in all Spanish TWR's and ACC's. 1/3rd of ATCO's at Santiago TACC have already reached their maximum hrs/year and will not work anymore until january 1st (Santiago TACC provides enroute and app service in the NW of Spain and for LEST, LECO, LEVX and LPPR, some of them are alternative AD for transatlantic flights). The number of controllers that will reach their quota is increasing every day, and soon will follow controllers from LEGE, Madrid ACC, etc ...
To deal with this situation, AENA has decided to use "creative accounting" when calculating the worked hours in the year: rest-breaks (25% day and 33% nights), sick or maternity leaves, training hours, etc ... are left aside and don't add to the total hrs/year.
This way, our total hours of work a year suffers another artificial increase up to 2300 hrs/year.
This is unacceptable.
Tomorrow we are expecting yet another agression from the Spanish Goverment in the form of another decree-law (the 4th this year), imposing a new change in our T&C's, in this case leaving at AENA´s discretion how they sum our working hours.
More news tomorrow.
Saludos!
As you already know, in feb. this year, the Spanish Goverment increased by law the hours/year for Spanish ATCO's, from 1200 to 1670.
Due to AENA's mismanagement, this increase will not be enough to provide control service in all Spanish TWR's and ACC's. 1/3rd of ATCO's at Santiago TACC have already reached their maximum hrs/year and will not work anymore until january 1st (Santiago TACC provides enroute and app service in the NW of Spain and for LEST, LECO, LEVX and LPPR, some of them are alternative AD for transatlantic flights). The number of controllers that will reach their quota is increasing every day, and soon will follow controllers from LEGE, Madrid ACC, etc ...
To deal with this situation, AENA has decided to use "creative accounting" when calculating the worked hours in the year: rest-breaks (25% day and 33% nights), sick or maternity leaves, training hours, etc ... are left aside and don't add to the total hrs/year.
This way, our total hours of work a year suffers another artificial increase up to 2300 hrs/year.
This is unacceptable.
Tomorrow we are expecting yet another agression from the Spanish Goverment in the form of another decree-law (the 4th this year), imposing a new change in our T&C's, in this case leaving at AENA´s discretion how they sum our working hours.
More news tomorrow.
Saludos!
Last edited by p_perez; 27th Nov 2012 at 08:40.
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https://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUB...r_set=00117188
DUE TO UNCOORDINATED INDUSTRIAL ACTION IN SPAIN, MADRID ACC IS
CLOSED FROM 1700 - 2359. LEPA AIRPORT IS CLOSED UNTIL 2359 AND
GCCCACC IS CLOSED UNTIL 2359. LECB AND LECS ACC'S ARE WORKING
WITH REDUCED SECTORISATION.
AENA MANAGEMENT WILL GIVE AN UPDATE ON THE SITUATION AS SOON AS
IT IS AVAILABLE.
.
CFMU OPS/BRUSSELS
DUE TO UNCOORDINATED INDUSTRIAL ACTION IN SPAIN, MADRID ACC IS
CLOSED FROM 1700 - 2359. LEPA AIRPORT IS CLOSED UNTIL 2359 AND
GCCCACC IS CLOSED UNTIL 2359. LECB AND LECS ACC'S ARE WORKING
WITH REDUCED SECTORISATION.
AENA MANAGEMENT WILL GIVE AN UPDATE ON THE SITUATION AS SOON AS
IT IS AVAILABLE.
.
CFMU OPS/BRUSSELS
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Well done guys,
I as a pilot am 100% behind you on this, its a step too far
Still think your well overpaid for what you do, but to have the goverment try this is just not on at all.
Go home put your feet up and relax.
I as a pilot am 100% behind you on this, its a step too far
Still think your well overpaid for what you do, but to have the goverment try this is just not on at all.
Go home put your feet up and relax.
similar to the strike in Santiago on 1st December 'all of them calling in sick'
Found out half way to STG although luckily had the fuel to hold for an hour before it opened!...its the total disregard for other professionals and the general public that irks me. If your are going to strike it should be planned and those effected notified in advance. I think this is the main reason that we pilots have bu**er all sympathy for the Spannish ATC and their complaints.
The French whether justified or not at least strike in the correct manner!
Found out half way to STG although luckily had the fuel to hold for an hour before it opened!...its the total disregard for other professionals and the general public that irks me. If your are going to strike it should be planned and those effected notified in advance. I think this is the main reason that we pilots have bu**er all sympathy for the Spannish ATC and their complaints.
The French whether justified or not at least strike in the correct manner!