Spanish ATC
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Spain
Age: 58
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Andrijander:
"If you think wikileaks is bad then I guess you're ok with governments saying one thing to their voters and doing whatever they please. Good on you? Erm, sure."
Quite the contrary. Yet I do realize, and that cannot be said about Spanish ATC it appears, that we are all in some difficult economic times in which the government has to take drastic measures, if it wants to avoid following Greece and recently Ireland.
"Apples and oranges? So all state workers have to reduce their salaries, except politicians (of course). But controllers and regular "funcionarios" is ok, but judges, politicians and Madrid metro workers not. Even if all are state workers. Makes sense? It seems to make sense to you."
So you recognize this is about money after all then?
If Spanish ATC's salaries, productivity rates and costs per hour would be at a similar level as that of their European colleagues, then you'd have a point. But we all know they are not. Productivity is below European average while costs per hour, due to high wages, almost double those of British controllers.
"This one says judges think that the royal decree is ilegal (for them, not for controllers or others)."
All the article linked states is that the judges doubt about the constitutional legality of the Royal Decree regarding the savings measures. That it is just illegal for them and not for controllers or others is your personal judgement.
"El recorte de sueldo en el Metro pasa de 100 a 20 ? tras la huelga salvaje | Madrid | elmundo.es
This one talks about the Madrid Metro wild cat strike. Happened this year due to the royal decree. They reduced their loss 5 fold (say from 100 euros to 20 euros loss) by doing this. Government was supporting it (or not interfering) because Madrid is controlled by the opposition party."
And it was this opposition party, the PP (which usually sides with Spanish ATC), which reached an agreement with the Madrid Metro workers. If you want to blame someone over that, blame the PP, not the Spanish Government.
"State believes black money in the spanish system (not declared money) to be around 23% of declared GDP of the country. That generates tons of undeclared jobs. The amount of people I know in Spain working and earning money under the table is astounding, especially since I live abroad and can tell now the difference. "
Black money has always been around in Spanish economy yet that doesn't mean that now all of a sudden the real unemployment rate us much lower.
Spain has the highest unemployment rate yet also some of the lowest salaries in Europe. With the economic crisis we have now and the austerity measures the Spanish Government just had to adopt for every one, it is simply incomprehensible that a relatively very small fraction of its working force are allowed to maintain the highest European salaries for their job while their productivity is below European average.
"If you think wikileaks is bad then I guess you're ok with governments saying one thing to their voters and doing whatever they please. Good on you? Erm, sure."
Quite the contrary. Yet I do realize, and that cannot be said about Spanish ATC it appears, that we are all in some difficult economic times in which the government has to take drastic measures, if it wants to avoid following Greece and recently Ireland.
"Apples and oranges? So all state workers have to reduce their salaries, except politicians (of course). But controllers and regular "funcionarios" is ok, but judges, politicians and Madrid metro workers not. Even if all are state workers. Makes sense? It seems to make sense to you."
So you recognize this is about money after all then?
If Spanish ATC's salaries, productivity rates and costs per hour would be at a similar level as that of their European colleagues, then you'd have a point. But we all know they are not. Productivity is below European average while costs per hour, due to high wages, almost double those of British controllers.
"This one says judges think that the royal decree is ilegal (for them, not for controllers or others)."
All the article linked states is that the judges doubt about the constitutional legality of the Royal Decree regarding the savings measures. That it is just illegal for them and not for controllers or others is your personal judgement.
"El recorte de sueldo en el Metro pasa de 100 a 20 ? tras la huelga salvaje | Madrid | elmundo.es
This one talks about the Madrid Metro wild cat strike. Happened this year due to the royal decree. They reduced their loss 5 fold (say from 100 euros to 20 euros loss) by doing this. Government was supporting it (or not interfering) because Madrid is controlled by the opposition party."
And it was this opposition party, the PP (which usually sides with Spanish ATC), which reached an agreement with the Madrid Metro workers. If you want to blame someone over that, blame the PP, not the Spanish Government.
"State believes black money in the spanish system (not declared money) to be around 23% of declared GDP of the country. That generates tons of undeclared jobs. The amount of people I know in Spain working and earning money under the table is astounding, especially since I live abroad and can tell now the difference. "
Black money has always been around in Spanish economy yet that doesn't mean that now all of a sudden the real unemployment rate us much lower.
Spain has the highest unemployment rate yet also some of the lowest salaries in Europe. With the economic crisis we have now and the austerity measures the Spanish Government just had to adopt for every one, it is simply incomprehensible that a relatively very small fraction of its working force are allowed to maintain the highest European salaries for their job while their productivity is below European average.
Spain needs to wake-up, get a kick in the b.lls or just (admit) and go bankrupt.
In the latter case, kick out the PSOE and PP, try to control the country via EU and get all the working people on a (normal) "9-to-5" contract!
Lines of waiting people on the street (in rain) should be forbidden while so-called office-workers "need" their coffee at 10:30 till 11:00 (and just leave their place while the office is packed with people!)
BTW, banks in spain are the same!
List of political parties in Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What are these "parties" doing, except for wasting tax-payers money!
Privatise and let the controllers decide if they want to come back, otherwise leave it!
In the latter case, kick out the PSOE and PP, try to control the country via EU and get all the working people on a (normal) "9-to-5" contract!
Lines of waiting people on the street (in rain) should be forbidden while so-called office-workers "need" their coffee at 10:30 till 11:00 (and just leave their place while the office is packed with people!)
BTW, banks in spain are the same!
List of political parties in Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What are these "parties" doing, except for wasting tax-payers money!
Privatise and let the controllers decide if they want to come back, otherwise leave it!
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: this side of the hill
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If everybody you disliked was put away or shot the world would be a pretty empty place
@ aldegar: good luck sir. This situation brings all of us to darker old times of Europe. Even if we, foreign ATCOs, don't understand what it's all about (or don't support you in this fight) I think we should all bear in mind that we could also have to face this kind of situation and see what we consider as granted be taken away as easily and as quickly as it is for you.
I sincerely hope that your situation will improve and that you will be able to come back to more peaceful working conditions that make possible a safe and efficient work.
Nock
I sincerely hope that your situation will improve and that you will be able to come back to more peaceful working conditions that make possible a safe and efficient work.
Nock
While I may disagree with the claims/reactions which have lead to this drama, I hope that this will work out in the end but I fear that there will only be losers when the dust has settled.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Barcelona, SPAIN
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Not really in the mood for a long post.
But even though it has already been said people seem all too willing to ignore it.
No control tower or ACC were ever left unmanned, and service was indeed provided for medical flights, emergencies and state aircraft.
I'll say it again, because I'm sure people will quickly disregard this and go on with their rantings:
No control tower or ACC were ever left unmanned, and service was indeed provided for medical flights, emergencies and state aircraft.
But even though it has already been said people seem all too willing to ignore it.
No control tower or ACC were ever left unmanned, and service was indeed provided for medical flights, emergencies and state aircraft.
I'll say it again, because I'm sure people will quickly disregard this and go on with their rantings:
No control tower or ACC were ever left unmanned, and service was indeed provided for medical flights, emergencies and state aircraft.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: MAN
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These guys make up to 300k (Sterling) a year, did they really think they were going to get any sympathy from anyone with unemployment hovering at 20%?
The Spanish government is doing the right thing, impose emergency measures and get them back to work, those that refuse, fire and prosecute them.
The Spanish government is doing the right thing, impose emergency measures and get them back to work, those that refuse, fire and prosecute them.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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FFS folks!
regardless of the supposed large salaries earned in the past - for those quoting 'sources' and 'figures', anything from any Government organisation in any coutry should be taking with a huge shovel-full of salt - the subsequent enforced changes to working hours/shifts etc are completely unacceptable and i for one applaud the Spanish ATCOs for having the b*lls to do it.
The resultant Government response to threaten ATCOs with arrest/imprisonment for failing to return to work is an appalling state of affairs and hardly conducive to a safe working environment - this is an accident waiting to happen....
And for those who feel the Spanish ATCOs aren't very good at their jobs, don't give directs, etc etc - that's not what this is now about. I'm sure there are many people out there who have had changes imposed in the last 20 years that they wish they could have stopped/done something about. In this situation, the Spanish ATCOs clearly felt that their only course of action was to walk out - hat off.
Regards,
ATCO1
Swanwick ACC
regardless of the supposed large salaries earned in the past - for those quoting 'sources' and 'figures', anything from any Government organisation in any coutry should be taking with a huge shovel-full of salt - the subsequent enforced changes to working hours/shifts etc are completely unacceptable and i for one applaud the Spanish ATCOs for having the b*lls to do it.
The resultant Government response to threaten ATCOs with arrest/imprisonment for failing to return to work is an appalling state of affairs and hardly conducive to a safe working environment - this is an accident waiting to happen....
And for those who feel the Spanish ATCOs aren't very good at their jobs, don't give directs, etc etc - that's not what this is now about. I'm sure there are many people out there who have had changes imposed in the last 20 years that they wish they could have stopped/done something about. In this situation, the Spanish ATCOs clearly felt that their only course of action was to walk out - hat off.
Regards,
ATCO1
Swanwick ACC
And, if i may say again, we CAN DO without the atco's (yes, i know the consequenses, not to long ago there was no radar in BIO, it started to get a mess, with IB only speaking spanish).
They are there in their "towers" for us, we are not up there in sometimes crappy circumstances for them, our airlines pay them as well!
(and no, i not work for mol!)
They are there in their "towers" for us, we are not up there in sometimes crappy circumstances for them, our airlines pay them as well!
(and no, i not work for mol!)
Join Date: Mar 2008
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And another thing...
for those advocating a 'sack-em-all' policy - please, organise a visit to an ATC Centre/Approach/Tower unit and get yourselves an insight into the job of an ATCO. It's not the easiest job in the world, it takes a long time to train and not everyone can do it.
Yes, most ATCOs are paid well - but a bit like pilots, we really earn our money when things start to go wrong... Would you like to be in need of assistance at 37,000' with Juan the newspaper-delivery boy your last hope of seeing your loved ones again, or someone who has at least a basic understanding of what is going on and who might just be able to help you?
for those advocating a 'sack-em-all' policy - please, organise a visit to an ATC Centre/Approach/Tower unit and get yourselves an insight into the job of an ATCO. It's not the easiest job in the world, it takes a long time to train and not everyone can do it.
Yes, most ATCOs are paid well - but a bit like pilots, we really earn our money when things start to go wrong... Would you like to be in need of assistance at 37,000' with Juan the newspaper-delivery boy your last hope of seeing your loved ones again, or someone who has at least a basic understanding of what is going on and who might just be able to help you?
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These guys are holding a country at hostage, fire the lot of them. I will guarantee you that they will not get any sympathy from the pilot population.
So even if the various reports now out in the media are wrong quoting 300k a year, they would not have collectively made that number up, even if they are out by half it is still ridiculous, they are civil servants and as such should take heed of the title "servant".
So even if the various reports now out in the media are wrong quoting 300k a year, they would not have collectively made that number up, even if they are out by half it is still ridiculous, they are civil servants and as such should take heed of the title "servant".
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Similarities with 1981 USA ATC and Ronald Reagan's measures
In post 772 Reinjan asks for a balanced view:
In 1981 the FAA had made its homework to counter the PATCO strike. Apart from calling back retired people, putting managers and office people back behind the radar screens, the use of military support personnel, the extension of working hours, (see also post 780 by ATC-Watcher) the FAA had made up a scheme of rigorous flow control ,allowing a limited and strongly regulated number of aircraft to fly on particular routes at fixed Flight Levels.
11.000 controllers were relentlessly fired. No mercy was shown until president Clinton permitted the rehiring of some. Gradually a new generation of controllers were hired and trained. A new union was formed and the funny thing is that nearly all demands which were refused to the PATCO union were, over the years and by negotiation, granted to the new NATCA union. Under the Bush administration it came to clashes again, but no strikes, the FAA claiming that controllers earned more than $ 200K.
1981 saw the first application of flow control on a massive scale. It led to the creation of the US Command Centre at Herndon which regulates all traffic ATC-wise in the US, later followed by the Brussels based CFMU in Europe.
In his message ATC-watcher concludes:
Of course there are differences, after all it's almost 30 years later. But there are similarities as well:
The PATCO Union isolated itself from the American public and did not get much sympathy. The Spanish controllers now need police protection to go to work. I read in one of the posts that they did not participate in the general strike a few weeks ago. Like PATCO they thought they could win in isolation. Both overstretched their luck.
A few posts hint at international solidarity among controllers. I wouldn't be so sure. Heavy traffic is reported around Spain, which must have been organised/permitted by neighbouring controllers. International solidarity was not organised for the US controllers in 1981 either. IFATCA organised a European meeting where this was discussed but they came not any further than writing a nasty letter. There was only one IFATCA member-country in favour of real action.
I sincerely hope that the fate of the Spanish controllers remains different from the PATCO colleagues. They should come to senses and seek an honorable way out, recognizing the economically difficult situation of their country.
Could anyone with a view to the situation comment on similarities - or not - with the USA ATC situation in 1981, Ronald Reagan's measures taken and the then immediate and final outcome for all involved?
11.000 controllers were relentlessly fired. No mercy was shown until president Clinton permitted the rehiring of some. Gradually a new generation of controllers were hired and trained. A new union was formed and the funny thing is that nearly all demands which were refused to the PATCO union were, over the years and by negotiation, granted to the new NATCA union. Under the Bush administration it came to clashes again, but no strikes, the FAA claiming that controllers earned more than $ 200K.
1981 saw the first application of flow control on a massive scale. It led to the creation of the US Command Centre at Herndon which regulates all traffic ATC-wise in the US, later followed by the Brussels based CFMU in Europe.
In his message ATC-watcher concludes:
Totally different in Spain today.
The PATCO Union isolated itself from the American public and did not get much sympathy. The Spanish controllers now need police protection to go to work. I read in one of the posts that they did not participate in the general strike a few weeks ago. Like PATCO they thought they could win in isolation. Both overstretched their luck.
A few posts hint at international solidarity among controllers. I wouldn't be so sure. Heavy traffic is reported around Spain, which must have been organised/permitted by neighbouring controllers. International solidarity was not organised for the US controllers in 1981 either. IFATCA organised a European meeting where this was discussed but they came not any further than writing a nasty letter. There was only one IFATCA member-country in favour of real action.
I sincerely hope that the fate of the Spanish controllers remains different from the PATCO colleagues. They should come to senses and seek an honorable way out, recognizing the economically difficult situation of their country.
CWaGR and cldrvr,
Well said both.
I don't want a single person to be put out of work, but, and a big but, if you rake in [get paid] well over the top than the market pays, then what do expect?
BTW, I took a big pay cut or risk losing my job this year. Not nice, but a fact of real life in these bad times.
I feel lucky I got a job to pay my bills and feed the family..
Think on, and try to look sharp
FK10
Well said both.
I don't want a single person to be put out of work, but, and a big but, if you rake in [get paid] well over the top than the market pays, then what do expect?
BTW, I took a big pay cut or risk losing my job this year. Not nice, but a fact of real life in these bad times.
I feel lucky I got a job to pay my bills and feed the family..
Think on, and try to look sharp
FK10
More than just an ATCO
Join Date: Jul 1999
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LH2 wrote
LH2 wrote
If they are not controllers they must be supervising; another task they are totally unsuited for. The only reason they are in the Ops Room then is to intimidate.
There are no military controllers in civilian centres.
they have deployed relatively high ranking military officers at ATC centres throughout the country.
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Fair play to the Spaniards.
They've talked the talk and now they're walking the walk. Certainly more than most of us (in the UK anyway) are/were prepared to do when it comes/came to having our pensions & pay messed with.
They've talked the talk and now they're walking the walk. Certainly more than most of us (in the UK anyway) are/were prepared to do when it comes/came to having our pensions & pay messed with.
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If they arent striking over their pay, they need to file lots of reports and leak them to the media. They will have a clear concience then if anything goes wrong. One would assume the controllers are not overworked, otherwise they wouldnt be volunteering for so much overtime.
We all know this is actually about pay and filty unionism.
Greed isnt a pretty thing, when 20% of your fellow countrymen are unemployed and the IMF is knocking at the door...
We all know this is actually about pay and filty unionism.
Greed isnt a pretty thing, when 20% of your fellow countrymen are unemployed and the IMF is knocking at the door...
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..."It's not the pay reduction they are striking over - open your eyes!!!!" ....
Bullsh1t!!!.
Theres only one way to deal with arrogant bullies...bully them harder, well see how cocky you lot are when the police come knocking on your doors, not that itll solve anything, but a lot of your fellow contrymen will applaud it .
Shame of it all is, your country is allready on the brink of financial disaster then you idiots do this
Bullsh1t!!!.
Theres only one way to deal with arrogant bullies...bully them harder, well see how cocky you lot are when the police come knocking on your doors, not that itll solve anything, but a lot of your fellow contrymen will applaud it .
Shame of it all is, your country is allready on the brink of financial disaster then you idiots do this
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military atc provision
Firstly I do not wish to denigrate my military ex-collegues. I am retired after 30 odd years as an ATCO at LATCC, hence ex-...
Reading about the industrial action, apparently now ended, by Spanish ATC I was horrified to read that their duties were being performed by military controllers. This reminds me of the occasion when this happened in France, for similar reasons, which resulted in the mid-air collision over Nantes of a Spantax Coronado (CV990) and an Iberia DC-9 (5th March 1973). Military controllers do their job and we do ours, but they are different. Neither, without appropriate training, can do each others job.
Dave
Reading about the industrial action, apparently now ended, by Spanish ATC I was horrified to read that their duties were being performed by military controllers. This reminds me of the occasion when this happened in France, for similar reasons, which resulted in the mid-air collision over Nantes of a Spantax Coronado (CV990) and an Iberia DC-9 (5th March 1973). Military controllers do their job and we do ours, but they are different. Neither, without appropriate training, can do each others job.
Dave