Spanish ATC
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the whole situation is surreal!!
if they don't go to work and WORK they will be facing criminal prosectution! what a relaxed enviornment to work in! what next? if they go on a break or decide to split the sector as it gets busy, they will also be prosecuted! As much as I think the way in which they have decided to "strike" is not acceptable, the Government reaction is just out of order and will have severe consequences for months to come!
You cannot just replace controllers from one day to another! it takes months in the best case for experienced controllers from other sectors and a year or two for trainees!
if they don't go to work and WORK they will be facing criminal prosectution! what a relaxed enviornment to work in! what next? if they go on a break or decide to split the sector as it gets busy, they will also be prosecuted! As much as I think the way in which they have decided to "strike" is not acceptable, the Government reaction is just out of order and will have severe consequences for months to come!
You cannot just replace controllers from one day to another! it takes months in the best case for experienced controllers from other sectors and a year or two for trainees!
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This appears to be the unusual situation where both parties are in the wrong.
Firstly, the ATC have clearly been overpaid for years, and now that needs to be rectified, I don't understand why they won't take less money if they want fewer hours.
Secondly, I cannot believe the government are taking the action they are now. It doesn't really matter though, the EU would step in if there were any threats of court action. I don't really know, or care about what Spanish Law says, their country is so much in debt it is reliant on the EU, so if a threat to take this whole matter went to the ECHR then Spain would give in.
Good luck!
Firstly, the ATC have clearly been overpaid for years, and now that needs to be rectified, I don't understand why they won't take less money if they want fewer hours.
Secondly, I cannot believe the government are taking the action they are now. It doesn't really matter though, the EU would step in if there were any threats of court action. I don't really know, or care about what Spanish Law says, their country is so much in debt it is reliant on the EU, so if a threat to take this whole matter went to the ECHR then Spain would give in.
Good luck!
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Can we not just have a big CTAF 
As I remember during my training and instructing days in the states when the tower closes the field goes uncontrolled
That seems to be the case, keep filed routes, squak VFR and turn up the TCAS nice and bright
A340-500 Left base 33L for touch and go! lol
As I remember during my training and instructing days in the states when the tower closes the field goes uncontrolled
That seems to be the case, keep filed routes, squak VFR and turn up the TCAS nice and bright
A340-500 Left base 33L for touch and go! lol
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Old Fokker,
let me start by saying that I am spanish and and ATCO but do NOT work in Spain, rather somewhere else in europe and have been for over 10 years.
* PR problem. Today's episode wont improve your ratings, I am afraid.
Well, it ain't my PR problem, but it definitely won't improve their ratings. I believe things should have been done differently but then again even I do not hold all the info. Perhaps they should have all resigned in masse, holding that as a bargaining chip instead of actually just putting the tools down. But I've heard government had that one covered by yet another decree that would not allow them to resign. We'd be back here. In any case I do know that every step of the way the government has been there with all their might barring every option. Wikileaks just proved that justice in Spain can go left or right depending on who's in charge. In this matter it's puzzling to see how a judge was surprisingly quick to rule that the decrease in salary of controllers was legal, but then a month later judges ruled that decreasing the salaries of judges wasn't legal (same situation, different government employees).
* 20% unemployment rate and a minimal wage established at some € 8,800/year, that the roughly 2,500 ATC personnel making an average of € 350,000/year are unfairly treated.
Another thing to know from Spain: 20% unemployment means there is a huge amount of people not declaring their income. Sure, there's a lot of people not having income and suffering lots, but not 20% by far. I grew up there.
*Are you aware of the fact that many medical operations, some very urgent, have had to be cancelled all over Spain, and possible beyond, because of Spanish ATC's walk-out today?
My understanding is that there is a rate 0, but medical flights and flights en-route were accepted.
* You have a right to go on strike. You do NOT have a right to abandon your work unannounced over made-up medical reasons.
Yeah I do have a right, ratified by a judge when a couple of years back we almost did strike. But in Spain they don't. When they call a strike, the government will provide minimum services of 110% (this happened when the general strike some weeks back..funny thing was controllers weren't even backing that one)
About the salaries, as I said, it's almost impossible to check. Only way forward is for the controllers to come up with their payslips. Even though it doesn't matter anymore, that's just not the case now and they're not fighting for that. So a bit off-topic nowadays.
A.
edited for spelling
let me start by saying that I am spanish and and ATCO but do NOT work in Spain, rather somewhere else in europe and have been for over 10 years.
* PR problem. Today's episode wont improve your ratings, I am afraid.
Well, it ain't my PR problem, but it definitely won't improve their ratings. I believe things should have been done differently but then again even I do not hold all the info. Perhaps they should have all resigned in masse, holding that as a bargaining chip instead of actually just putting the tools down. But I've heard government had that one covered by yet another decree that would not allow them to resign. We'd be back here. In any case I do know that every step of the way the government has been there with all their might barring every option. Wikileaks just proved that justice in Spain can go left or right depending on who's in charge. In this matter it's puzzling to see how a judge was surprisingly quick to rule that the decrease in salary of controllers was legal, but then a month later judges ruled that decreasing the salaries of judges wasn't legal (same situation, different government employees).
* 20% unemployment rate and a minimal wage established at some € 8,800/year, that the roughly 2,500 ATC personnel making an average of € 350,000/year are unfairly treated.
Another thing to know from Spain: 20% unemployment means there is a huge amount of people not declaring their income. Sure, there's a lot of people not having income and suffering lots, but not 20% by far. I grew up there.
*Are you aware of the fact that many medical operations, some very urgent, have had to be cancelled all over Spain, and possible beyond, because of Spanish ATC's walk-out today?
My understanding is that there is a rate 0, but medical flights and flights en-route were accepted.
* You have a right to go on strike. You do NOT have a right to abandon your work unannounced over made-up medical reasons.
Yeah I do have a right, ratified by a judge when a couple of years back we almost did strike. But in Spain they don't. When they call a strike, the government will provide minimum services of 110% (this happened when the general strike some weeks back..funny thing was controllers weren't even backing that one)
About the salaries, as I said, it's almost impossible to check. Only way forward is for the controllers to come up with their payslips. Even though it doesn't matter anymore, that's just not the case now and they're not fighting for that. So a bit off-topic nowadays.
A.
edited for spelling
Last edited by andrijander; 4th Dec 2010 at 12:05.
Join Date: Mar 2005
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The cause of this unprecedented situation is the "solution" that the spanish government gave to the problem of the Spanish ATC.
If you make a royal decree, jumping above all laws and previous agreements between AENA and the ATCOs, you are forcing things. Imposition rather than negotiation and agreement can bring bad consecuences.
So if I dropped a bomb on my neighbours house (he is a pain in the neck, believe me...) Would anyone be surprised if he droped another one on mine?
No.
The spanish government dropped an atomic bomb on the ATCOs, and now it is the ATCOs turn. And we pay for it.
The aftermath of all this crazy situation (state of alarm!) will be the privatisation of AENA for one hundredth of its real value (it is one of the best bussinesses you can find).
I deem the buyers are friends of someone in the government.
Otherwise the government is plainly stupid by having let things go this far.
Let's see if they start arresting ATCOs or what
If you make a royal decree, jumping above all laws and previous agreements between AENA and the ATCOs, you are forcing things. Imposition rather than negotiation and agreement can bring bad consecuences.
So if I dropped a bomb on my neighbours house (he is a pain in the neck, believe me...) Would anyone be surprised if he droped another one on mine?
No.
The spanish government dropped an atomic bomb on the ATCOs, and now it is the ATCOs turn. And we pay for it.
The aftermath of all this crazy situation (state of alarm!) will be the privatisation of AENA for one hundredth of its real value (it is one of the best bussinesses you can find).
I deem the buyers are friends of someone in the government.
Otherwise the government is plainly stupid by having let things go this far.
Let's see if they start arresting ATCOs or what
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Well, I´ll explain latter today why ATCO is on full strike and is long to describe, but think this:
- those 300.000€ is a lie, when Madrid Barajas new runways were openned they needed the extra hours from the ATCO´s and they did it going beyond the point, that was on 2008, an ATCO wins 120.000€ because I have seen it (lot´s of friends ATCO´s). Last month a collegue earned 928€, that´s it!!!
- Goverment new that this was going to happen at least 2 weeks ago, at least 10 months ago!!!
- Military? **** you, they all can resign today and Spain would be w/o ATCO´s for ages, they can do it.
more this afternoon
- those 300.000€ is a lie, when Madrid Barajas new runways were openned they needed the extra hours from the ATCO´s and they did it going beyond the point, that was on 2008, an ATCO wins 120.000€ because I have seen it (lot´s of friends ATCO´s). Last month a collegue earned 928€, that´s it!!!
- Goverment new that this was going to happen at least 2 weeks ago, at least 10 months ago!!!
- Military? **** you, they all can resign today and Spain would be w/o ATCO´s for ages, they can do it.
more this afternoon
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So now... what?
Ok, we have the martial law, as it were
State of Alarm
Dreadful isn't it?
So what, now? I'm waiting to see the first ATCO to be arrested and carried to a jail by soldiers.
That is going to be fun.
Maybe the spanish governmet would be willing to swap a few ATCOs with Gitmo's taliban...
State of Alarm
Dreadful isn't it?
So what, now? I'm waiting to see the first ATCO to be arrested and carried to a jail by soldiers.
That is going to be fun.
Maybe the spanish governmet would be willing to swap a few ATCOs with Gitmo's taliban...
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Maybe while we are getting the Army to force them back to work, we could politely ask them to stop the rife favoritism that puts the needs of Iberia and Spanair before any other European or foreign aircraft in their airspace. It is a such a disgrace!
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Erm, that'd be fun, ask the guys whose professional goal is to defend a nation to not be nationalistic. Yeah, that's why the govmnt did put them there...what strike?
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Frankly, with the controller pay the government give them, they could sack every single controller and get other europeans in overnight on HALF what they earned.
Spanish controllers = selfish and greedy at a time of national financial crisis.
If the government bend over for
earniong up to 1 million euros for doing an easy job, how are they going to force unpleasant cuts across the less well paid?
The eurozone could melt down if spain doesnt grip its deficit. Its that serious. They have a bailout coming their way and I bet the IMF terms wont include paying out other nations money to maintain extortionate civil sector salaries.
Spanish controllers = selfish and greedy at a time of national financial crisis.
If the government bend over for
earniong up to 1 million euros for doing an easy job, how are they going to force unpleasant cuts across the less well paid?The eurozone could melt down if spain doesnt grip its deficit. Its that serious. They have a bailout coming their way and I bet the IMF terms wont include paying out other nations money to maintain extortionate civil sector salaries.
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LayLoLay :
.
One of the best post in days. very good questions indeed.
What about the AENA management in all this? They are avoiding the flak very professionally it seems.
Why are they not held responsible for letting matters get out of hand? Why are they not in the news for their irresponsible management? They were the ones who accepted these unbelievably good conditions that some of you claim the spanish controllers had. If the controllers were/are earning these huge salaries what salaries were/are the management earning? How much bonus did they make for every year where they fooled the public that all was in order, while saving money by not training new controllers, instead digging a hole under the existing ones by offering them huge compensations for overtime? Their incompetence had to bring the ministries to take care of the action and they just sit on the sideline watch the storm pass by? Are they not responsible for their slack cost control and unnecessary airport improvements cost of which is hundred fold of that of the controllers' salary?
Why are they not held responsible for letting matters get out of hand? Why are they not in the news for their irresponsible management? They were the ones who accepted these unbelievably good conditions that some of you claim the spanish controllers had. If the controllers were/are earning these huge salaries what salaries were/are the management earning? How much bonus did they make for every year where they fooled the public that all was in order, while saving money by not training new controllers, instead digging a hole under the existing ones by offering them huge compensations for overtime? Their incompetence had to bring the ministries to take care of the action and they just sit on the sideline watch the storm pass by? Are they not responsible for their slack cost control and unnecessary airport improvements cost of which is hundred fold of that of the controllers' salary?
One of the best post in days. very good questions indeed.
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Don't beleive what is the media. IFATCA will have a good info sheet in a couple of hours. The controllers are forced back to work under military supervision so flights will resume, but the problems will remain and soon get worse.
This will most probably end up in a tragedy. Everyone will lose in the end.
So don't laugh too hard.
ATCW
PS : Having the military run ATC with Civilians controllers under their rules brings us back to Franco tiimes . 30 years back in fact.
This will most probably end up in a tragedy. Everyone will lose in the end.
So don't laugh too hard.
ATCW
PS : Having the military run ATC with Civilians controllers under their rules brings us back to Franco tiimes . 30 years back in fact.
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VinRouge, educate yourself.. this conflict is not primary about money, its about alot more...
suggest you start here:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416...ml#post5718077
suggest you start here:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416...ml#post5718077
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"Spain cant afford your salaries. That is the reality you greedy little spanish person. "
Urban Dictionary: union
an association that uses thuggery, hooliganism, bribery and blackmail to get the wage level raised above its true value for lazy workers
Urban Dictionary: union
an association that uses thuggery, hooliganism, bribery and blackmail to get the wage level raised above its true value for lazy workers
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VinRogue....You should read up on this crisis a little before you post...it's not just about money.....and you are obviously very stupid if you believe sacking the controllers is a viable option.. Who's going to replace them ?? Most European Ansps are short staffed......for this easy job???... and no controller in their right mind would go work in Spain if they know what is going on.Get an education....your ignorance is astounding 
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350,000 ? LOL
"Spanish air traffic controllers get triple time pay for overtime hours, for instance, and made much of their salary from this, earning an average yearly salary of €350 000."
Spain air controllers returning to work: News24: World: News
Madrid - Spain placed striking air traffic controllers under military authority on Saturday in an unprecedented emergency order and threatened jail terms for those who refuse to go back to work in a bid to get the country's air space back to normal.
Civil aviation agency Aena said hours later that some strikers were back on the job. The wildcat stoppage that began on Friday has largely closed the country's air space and stranded hundreds of thousands of travellers on a busy holiday weekend.
Aena's Twitter feed said Madrid's Barajas airport could be operating at 30% capacity by 16:00 (15:00 GMT).
In announcing the approval of a "state of alarm" after an emergency Cabinet meeting, Deputy Prime Minister Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba accused air traffic controllers of "blackmailing all of our citizens".
He apologised to irate travellers who spent Friday night sleeping at airports on what was supposed to be the start of a long holiday weekend.
Busiest travel weekend
The order placing the air traffic controllers under military authority went into effect about an hour after he spoke. A few hours later, Aena said 11 of 15 controllers stationed at Barcelona's airport have returned to work and an unspecified number are also back on duty at the air control centre that oversees Madrid's Barajas. The official also said one flight has left the Canary Islands for Luxembourg.
But it was far from clear when Spain's airports would be fully back to normal.
The case is reminiscent of a wildcat air traffic controllers strike in 1981 in the US, although the Spanish government has stopped short of simply firing controllers and breaking their union as President Ronald Reagan did at the time.
This is usually one of the busiest travel weekends of the year in Spain because Monday and Wednesday of next week are holidays, and many people plan to take Tuesday off as well.
The air traffic controllers launched their wildcat strike in the culmination of a long-running dispute with the government over working conditions, work schedules and benefits.
Spanish air traffic controllers get triple time pay for overtime hours, for instance, and made much of their salary from this, earning an average yearly salary of €350 000.
Slashing salaries
But in February the government slashed their allowed overtime hours drastically, infuriating the controllers who saw their pay nearly cut in half, although that is still roughly three times what Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero makes. The average yearly salary in Spain is about €20 000.
The final straw seems to have been a decree approved by the Cabinet on Friday under which controllers who miss work shifts because of illness must make up lost hours and can be subject to medical checkups immediately if they call in sick.
Perez Rubalcaba said that in Spain as in other countries, air traffic controllers are a highly paid specialized group because of their unique skills, but in this case Spanish controllers are using their status to defend what he called "intolerable privileges".
The government reacted to the strike by placing Spain's air traffic control centres and towers under military control.
TV footage on Spanish television showed seas of stranded travellers wandering around Spanish airports on Saturday. The flagship carrier Iberia cancelled all its flights in Spain until early on Sunday morning. Air France and Irish airline Ryanair also cancelled all flights to and from Spain.
"It is very bad. Tourists from all over the world are affected," Yair Orgler, 71, of Tel Aviv, told APTN at Madrid's Barajas airport. "The situation is really serious. I hope it will be solved soon because we don't know what to do."
Flights delayed or cancelled
Thousands of Swedish, Norwegian and Danish air passengers were forced to put their holidays on hold and wait around in airport lounges and hotels as southern-bound airlines awaited the traffic chaos in Spain to ease.
Jan Lindqvist, a spokesperson for Swedish airport operator Swedavia, said numerous flights had been delayed or cancelled and two flights had been forced to return to Goteborg's Landvetter airport.
In Amsterdam, Schiphol Airport spokesperson Antoinette Spaans warned travellers that winter weather and strikes in Spain were causing delays and cancellations.
Speaking after the emergency Cabinet meeting, Perez Rubalcaba said of the "state of alarm" would last 15 days, but could be extended if parliament approves it.
The "state of alarm" clause included in Spain's 1978 constitution, passed three years after the death of long-time dictator General Francisco Franco, had never previously been invoked. It was designed to help governments deal with catastrophes such as earthquakes or floods or, as in this case, the collapse of an essential public service like access to air traves.
"Spanish air traffic controllers get triple time pay for overtime hours, for instance, and made much of their salary from this, earning an average yearly salary of €350 000."
Spain air controllers returning to work: News24: World: News
Madrid - Spain placed striking air traffic controllers under military authority on Saturday in an unprecedented emergency order and threatened jail terms for those who refuse to go back to work in a bid to get the country's air space back to normal.
Civil aviation agency Aena said hours later that some strikers were back on the job. The wildcat stoppage that began on Friday has largely closed the country's air space and stranded hundreds of thousands of travellers on a busy holiday weekend.
Aena's Twitter feed said Madrid's Barajas airport could be operating at 30% capacity by 16:00 (15:00 GMT).
In announcing the approval of a "state of alarm" after an emergency Cabinet meeting, Deputy Prime Minister Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba accused air traffic controllers of "blackmailing all of our citizens".
He apologised to irate travellers who spent Friday night sleeping at airports on what was supposed to be the start of a long holiday weekend.
Busiest travel weekend
The order placing the air traffic controllers under military authority went into effect about an hour after he spoke. A few hours later, Aena said 11 of 15 controllers stationed at Barcelona's airport have returned to work and an unspecified number are also back on duty at the air control centre that oversees Madrid's Barajas. The official also said one flight has left the Canary Islands for Luxembourg.
But it was far from clear when Spain's airports would be fully back to normal.
The case is reminiscent of a wildcat air traffic controllers strike in 1981 in the US, although the Spanish government has stopped short of simply firing controllers and breaking their union as President Ronald Reagan did at the time.
This is usually one of the busiest travel weekends of the year in Spain because Monday and Wednesday of next week are holidays, and many people plan to take Tuesday off as well.
The air traffic controllers launched their wildcat strike in the culmination of a long-running dispute with the government over working conditions, work schedules and benefits.
Spanish air traffic controllers get triple time pay for overtime hours, for instance, and made much of their salary from this, earning an average yearly salary of €350 000.
Slashing salaries
But in February the government slashed their allowed overtime hours drastically, infuriating the controllers who saw their pay nearly cut in half, although that is still roughly three times what Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero makes. The average yearly salary in Spain is about €20 000.
The final straw seems to have been a decree approved by the Cabinet on Friday under which controllers who miss work shifts because of illness must make up lost hours and can be subject to medical checkups immediately if they call in sick.
Perez Rubalcaba said that in Spain as in other countries, air traffic controllers are a highly paid specialized group because of their unique skills, but in this case Spanish controllers are using their status to defend what he called "intolerable privileges".
The government reacted to the strike by placing Spain's air traffic control centres and towers under military control.
TV footage on Spanish television showed seas of stranded travellers wandering around Spanish airports on Saturday. The flagship carrier Iberia cancelled all its flights in Spain until early on Sunday morning. Air France and Irish airline Ryanair also cancelled all flights to and from Spain.
"It is very bad. Tourists from all over the world are affected," Yair Orgler, 71, of Tel Aviv, told APTN at Madrid's Barajas airport. "The situation is really serious. I hope it will be solved soon because we don't know what to do."
Flights delayed or cancelled
Thousands of Swedish, Norwegian and Danish air passengers were forced to put their holidays on hold and wait around in airport lounges and hotels as southern-bound airlines awaited the traffic chaos in Spain to ease.
Jan Lindqvist, a spokesperson for Swedish airport operator Swedavia, said numerous flights had been delayed or cancelled and two flights had been forced to return to Goteborg's Landvetter airport.
In Amsterdam, Schiphol Airport spokesperson Antoinette Spaans warned travellers that winter weather and strikes in Spain were causing delays and cancellations.
Speaking after the emergency Cabinet meeting, Perez Rubalcaba said of the "state of alarm" would last 15 days, but could be extended if parliament approves it.
The "state of alarm" clause included in Spain's 1978 constitution, passed three years after the death of long-time dictator General Francisco Franco, had never previously been invoked. It was designed to help governments deal with catastrophes such as earthquakes or floods or, as in this case, the collapse of an essential public service like access to air traves.
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Any ideas how long this is likely to continue on for ?
if you talk about the dispute, many years to come.