Spanish ATC

[Old_Fokker]

LayLoLay:

"What about the AENA management in all this? They are avoiding the flak very professionally it seems."

Which cannot be said about Spanish ATC with their surprise walkout.

Andrijander:

"But I've heard government had that one covered by yet another decree that would not allow them to resign."

That's speculation, in my book.

"Wikileaks just proved that justice in Spain can go left or right depending on who's in charge."

If there's anything Wikileaks has learned us, then it surely is how a relative small number of people can have the whole world 'by their balls'.

"In this matter it's puzzling to see how a judge was surprisingly quick to rule that the decrease in salary of controllers was legal, but then a month later judges ruled that decreasing the salaries of judges wasn't legal (same situation, different government employees)."

Apples and oranges.

"Another thing to know from Spain: 20% unemployment means there is a huge amount of people not declaring their income. Sure, there's a lot of people not having income and suffering lots, but not 20% by far. I grew up there."

You deny its 20% yet you fail to provide a credible alternative figure, let alone a source.

Microburst2002

"The cause of this unprecedented situation is the "solution" that the spanish government gave to the problem of the Spanish ATC."

It is not unprecedented as Spanish ATC, though on a smaller scale, has previously opted to simply not turn up for work over alleged medical reasons or because they claim to have run out of overtime hours. Ie, Barcelona in July (while AENA was in negotiations with their union) and a couple of days ago in Galicia.

And the interpretation of the new overtime hours rule, which was accepted by a government decree yesterday just a couple of hours before the massive walkout, is the issue here. Not passenger-safety as some now claim.

"If you make a royal decree, jumping above all laws and previous agreements between AENA and the ATCOs..."

That's because AENA and the ATCO's union failed to reach an agreement, despite numerous attempts. Not reaching an agreement does NOT give them a right to deny to perform their job, certainly not en masse as we saw yesterday, as this creates massive chaos and inconvenience to thousands of people, as we saw yesterday and still today.

"So if I dropped a bomb on my neighbours house (he is a pain in the neck, believe me...) Would anyone be surprised if he droped another one on mine?"

A better analogy would be that your neighbour, in retaliation, dropped a bomb on the entire city just to get even with you. Because that is what happened yesterday.

transilvana:

"Goverment new that this was going to happen at least 2 weeks ago, at least 10 months ago!!!"

The government knew that Spanish ATCO's were not happy with the new rules, what they did not know, nor could foresee, is the grave and irresponsible act of a massive walkout yesterday. Don't blame THAT on the government, no matter how much you despise them.

In this regard it should be pointed out that even Spanish right wing media which have a long history of opposing and criticizing virtually anything "the socialists" do, now support them. Ultra right wing Libertaddigital, usually busy thinking up conspiracy theories on Prime Minister Zapatero personally planning the Madrid train bombings, or some another stupidity along that line, now actually not only backs the government's actions (very likely for the very first time!), it also lays the blame solely with Spanish ATC. [ Source in Spanish ]. Today's editorials of other traditionally right leaning Spanish media (ABC, El Mundo) have very similar opinions on the issue.

[VinRouge]

I know if I could move to a country, get a doubling of salary and buy a house at under 40% off what it was marketed for in 2007, I dont think I would be too woried about my own NATS...

Sack the lot. Its an unofficial strike and they selfish s0ds deserve the sack. If you dont like the T+Cs, leave, get a new job, and mind your @rse on the door as you make your way out.

[andrijander]

Vin Rouge,

seriously you've got no idea. And don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about your opinion but the fact that what you're asking for is just way worse than this last 24 hours. If that was viable it would have happened already and it hasn't. No chance mil or foreigners can cover their work tomorrow, next week or next month.

So please, stop all those "sack'em all" type posts, let's talk about real possibles here.

st7860,

my guess is you assume that employers are not "an association that uses thuggery, hooliganism, bribery and blackmail to get the wage level SHATTERED BELOW its true value for workers". Because let's face it, maybe in canada employers are angels that treat you good if you behave, but in Spain they're mainly sharks trying to get away with as much as possible for as little as possible. Therefore unions. And yes, some have to become more transparent and civilized, but they're a necessary evil.

[Bigears]

Urban Dictionary: Empathy
The ability to feel what another being feels; something that's sorely lacking in modern life.

[2control]

EXPATCO

Remember what happened 3rd of August 1981. President Regan ordered the controllers back to work no later than on the following Monday, or else...
11000 controllers were fired.

[st7860]

in many ways Canada is more socialist than the People's Republic of China.

for example, you need a licence to sell Milk, Eggs, Bread, etc, thus the prices are extremely high.

so many Canadians drive to the united states to buy milk, eggs, bread, etc.

[andrijander]

O_Fokker

That's the same speculating place that said yesterday that they had the alarm state up their sleeve before they activated it. I'm not posting my sources unless they're public.

If you think wikileaks is bad then I guess you're ok with governments saying one thing to their voters and doing whatever they please. Good on you? Erm, sure.

Apples and oranges? So all state workers have to reduce their salaries, except politicians (of course). But controllers and regular "funcionarios" is ok, but judges, politicians and Madrid metro workers not. Even if all are state workers. Makes sense? It seems to make sense to you.
Expansión.com
This one says judges think that the royal decree is ilegal (for them, not for controllers or others).
El recorte de sueldo en el Metro pasa de 100 a 20 ? tras la huelga salvaje | Madrid | elmundo.es
This one talks about the Madrid Metro wild cat strike. Happened this year due to the royal decree. They reduced their loss 5 fold (say from 100 euros to 20 euros loss) by doing this. Government was supporting it (or not interfering) because Madrid is controlled by the opposition party.

The government says it is 20% yet at the same time they know that there is lots of people not declaring their income. What else you want me to say? You want me to make up a percentage? I can do that : 12%.
La economía sumergida en España: ¿dónde se genera el dinero negro? - Expansión.com
State believes black money in the spanish system (not declared money) to be around 23% of declared GDP of the country. That generates tons of undeclared jobs. The amount of people I know in Spain working and earning money under the table is astounding, especially since I live abroad and can tell now the difference.

But Hey! It's all hearsay or I'm just making it up. Right?
A.

edited due to formatting issues

[LH2]

Originally Posted by BeT

Before that statement is jumped on by 100 salivating pilots or armchair controllers take a minute to appreciate the gravity of what the government is proposing to do; you would potentially get less jail time for murdering someone!

Well, clearly an individual murder is a far lesser crime than putting thousands if not millions of lives at risk and bringing down your own country's economy. I wonder how many organ transplants and medical flights had to be cancelled because of this?

By the way, having read the Spanish (well, Catalan) news, the government's reaction appears to be wholly within expectations from a legal point of view. The situation is like this:

On 3-Dec, a royal decree is published relating to a number of matters dealing with taxation, gaming, and aeronautical services. On the latter subject, two of the provisions relate to air traffic control services: one modifies the previous regulation such that a controller claiming to be unfit for work is subject to a medical inspection by AENA-designated physicians (this being brought about by the large number of unjustified "medical" absences experienced over the last year); the other provision puts Air Traffic Controllers under the direction of the Defence Ministry--note that this does not mean putting military controllers in charge of civilian traffic. It does mean that the Defence Ministry are in responsible for organising, planning, supervising, and controlling their work.

I am not sure what, if any, is the causality relation between the publication of this decree and the controller's actions on Friday. Clearly, the decree does not appear to have been a response to those actions, and given reports in the Spanish press that the hotel conference room where some of Madrid's controllers held their meeting last night was booked at 13:00 on Friday, i.e. at the same time as the decree's publication, it may or may not have been what caused the controllers to take their path of action.

On the other hand, this weekend is a major holiday in Spain. Given that Wednesday the 8th is a religious feast in the Catholic calendar (the name of the particular observation escapes me), the Spaniards in their pragmatism decide that they may as well take Monday and Tuesday off as well therefore giving them a five day holiday. Many of them had travel plans starting on Friday (my Spanish girlfriend included, she went by road against my suggestion that she use Ryanair ). Of course, the controllers would have been fully aware of the significance of these dates.

What then happened, after it became clear that the controllers were carrying out significant, concerted, and premeditated actions to disrupt the flow of air traffic during a holiday, in gross disregard of the law, was that the Spanish government resorted to that stipulated in Section 116 of the Spanish Constitution (PDF), which authorises the states of alert, exception, and siege. This is in turn regulated by an organic (i.e., fundamental) law: Ley Orgánica 4/1981, de 1 de junio (PDF), to be precise which stipulates in Section 1 that the aforementioned states will be declared when (translated and paraphrased) "extraordinary circumstances made impossible the maintenance of normality by the ordinary powers of the competent authorities".

Section 4 gives the specific circumstances in which a state of alert may be declared; in this case paragraph 4 is of interest, it reads:

"Paralización de servicios públicos esenciales para la comunidad, cuando no se garantice lo dispuesto en los artículos 28.2 y 37.2 de la Constitución, y concurra alguna de las demás circunstancias o situaciones contenidas en este artículo."

which roughly says the state of alarm may be declared in the event of "stoppage of public services essential to the community, when the stipulations of Sections 28.2 and 37.2 of the Constitution are not being met, and in concurrence with any of the other circumstances or situations described in this Section" (note that the last condition may not have been met, therefore making the application of the state of alert inconstitutional in this case--this is merely a personal observation, and I'm not competent in this subject.) Sections 28.2 and 37.2 of the Spanish Constitution deal with the right to strike and the maintenance of minimal services during such an event.

The relevant implication of a state of alert in this case, is that all civil servants, police forces, lower administrative entities, etc., etc., are placed under the direct control of the "competent authority" (the central Spanish government in this case), which may take a series of measures such as the imposition of additional services extraordinary in their length or nature, and occupy and take control of "industries, factories, workshops, or places of any description, except private residences". Penalties are imposed in the event of disobedience or resistance to orders given by the competent authority, and those are particularly severe in the case of civil servants (which Spanish controllers are).

The application of a state of alert, in combination with the provisions of royal decree 13/2010 concerning supervision of air traffic services by the Defence Ministry, is claimed to have led to a "mobilisation" of controllers. It is unclear to me what is meant by this--the press reports that they are now under military command and thus could be tried for sedition in the event that they refuse to do their job. However, this is incorrect on two points: the first is that they are not under military command, but merely under the orders of the Ministry of Defence (who not unreasonably have deployed officers with the rank of Colonel and above in the field to liase and monitor compliance with their orders); the second point on which the above is incorrect is that you do not need to be under military command to be charged with sedition. The applicable law is the Spanish penal code, Title XXII, Chapter I, Section 544, which states:

"Son reos de sedición los que, sin estar comprendidos en el delito de rebelión, se alcen pública y tumultuariamente para impedir, por la fuerza o fuera de las vías legales, la aplicación de las Leyes o a cualquier autoridad, corporación oficial o funcionario público, el legítimo ejercicio de sus funciones o el cumplimiento de sus acuerdos, o de las resoluciones administrativas o judiciales."

Forgive me for not translating, you can use Google if needed.

So, to summarise:

* Spanish ATCOs went on a wild strike at the start of an important holiday.

* This may or may not have been in response to the publication of royal decree 13/2010 which, in part, dealt with air traffic matters.

* In any event, the above decree was not a response to the controllers actions on Friday, as implied by some in the media.

* The controllers actions were deemed by the government to be causing major disruption to the normal functioning of the country, in contravenance of the controllers constitutional obligations as relates to industrial action. This led to the declaration of a state of alert, in accordance with Spanish law.

* The part of the executive responsible for air traffic is, since Friday, the Defence Ministry, which needs to ensure that essential services are maintained. In order to liase with the civil service and monitor compliance, they have deployed relatively high ranking military officers at ATC centres throughout the country. Apparently they have also opened certain military bases to civilian traffic, amongst other measures.

* The controllers directing civilian traffic are not military controllers. They are the normal controllers assigned to their usual posts.

* There has been a degree of misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation on the local and international press about the whole thing, tending (strangely enough ) to exaggerate or sensationalise the events. Not saying it is not an extraordinary situation, but it doesn't need any extra embelishments such as the Torygraph talking about the presence of "armed police" at the airports (all Spanish police are armed, and being in charge of immigration [Policía Nacional] and customs [Guardia Civil], you can find them at every international airport every day of the year.)

Lastly, comments to the effect that they are working with "guns pointing in their ears", such as Heathrow Director's above, do not conform to reality, are grossly out of place, filled with ignorance, and above all they are deeply disrespectful of the members of police and armed forces who are well aware of the very strict conditions under which they may draw (let alone operate) their weapons.

I hope this helps clarify the situation somewhat. I do not have any direct or indirect involvement with it, and although my position is one of total lack of sympathy towards the majority of Spanish controllers, this is exclusively on the basis of the appalling service received. I also have a social life in Spain and have come to meet a few aspiring and serving controllers over the years, and I have found their motivations and (lack of) interest in their job rather questionable.

[Lon More]

This is the person here making the most sense, a Controller and also a member of the IFATCA board.

ATCWatcher wrote

. The controllers are forced back to work under military supervision so flights will resume, but the problems will remain and soon get worse.
This will most probably end up in a tragedy. Everyone will lose in the end.
So don't laugh too hard.

My tuppenceworth What sort of working atmosphere do you expect if a Military Controller is sat watching your every move? Like a constantly present, hostile Check Pilot with only a PPL? I imagine the flow rates are going to be extremely low as nobody is prepared to make what is seen as a mistake by somebody unqualified for the job.

I worked through the French strike in 1973 and it was frightening to see some of the things happening in French airspace. The military controllers were. of course, just following orders and therefore could expect complete exoneration when it all went TU. I don't know how they communicated with the aircraft, they certainly couldn't communicate with adjacent sectors. I hope IFALPA recommends that its members avoid Spanish airspace until yhis is satisfied.
For those who's well thought out solution is to fire the lot and then privatise it I suggest you go away and have a sit down in a quiet room. There is (still) a world wide shortage of ATCOs so this would only make attracting qualified personnel expensive but they have to obtain validations at the unit so probably a year to eighteen moths before they can work alone. Double, or even treble, the period if you are starting from ab-initio.

[Lon More]

Of the permanently unemployed...as it should.
Jail next?

If everybody you disliked was put away or shot the world would be a pretty empty place

[aldegar]

I'd like to comment some of the posts, but a few hours ago I had people with guns coming in my ACC and I've been signing all kind of papers stating that I am now Military Personnel.

Therefore, I can't freely express my opinion on a public forum since I could be court martialed.

Thanks to all supporting us.

[LH2]

Slightly OT, but...

Originally Posted by Old_Fokker

"Another thing to know from Spain: 20% unemployment means there is a huge amount of people not declaring their income. Sure, there's a lot of people not having income and suffering lots, but not 20% by far. I grew up there."

You deny its 20% yet you fail to provide a credible alternative figure, let alone a source.

Underdeclared income and informal work notwithstanding (and it is a reality in Spain as in much of Southern Europe), I understand the number of people who qualify as unemployed or not sufficiently employed is in fact significantly higher than that provided above. I do not recall the exact figure, although 30% rings a bell. My source: personal exchange with a EU employee in charge of labour and education programs in Spain, early 2010. Sorry it is not a public and verifiable source.

[Nock]

@ aldegar: good luck sir. This situation brings all of us to darker old times of Europe. Even if we, foreign ATCOs, don't understand what it's all about (or don't support you in this fight) I think we should all bear in mind that we could also have to face this kind of situation and see what we consider as granted be taken away as easily and as quickly as it is for you.

I sincerely hope that your situation will improve and that you will be able to come back to more peaceful working conditions that make possible a safe and efficient work.

Nock

[LH2]

Originally Posted by Lon More

My tuppenceworth What sort of working atmosphere do you expect if a Military Controller is sat watching your every move?

That is not what is happening. There are no military controllers in civilian centres.

The only flights being controlled by the military are those that choose to land at any of the military airfields which have been made available to civil traffic.

For those who's well thought out solution is to fire the lot and then privatise it I suggest you go away and have a sit down in a quiet room.

That would be the Spanish government then. You will find that they have privatised the tower and approach services and infrastructure. The details are in the royal decree from yesterday, which I have linked in a previous post. They may need sitting in a quiet room, but it's a bit late now.

[andrijander]

LH2,

I must say your long post above is one of the best I've read in a long time, albeit your personal opinions are yours, and I may agree more or less. But the accounting of the situation is on the money. Hope people actually read it.

Also it may be that people not earning enough to live in a dignified way in Spain is more than 20% of the population. I believe it is the case. But then again we've got to set a starting point somewhere. In any case if you have a job (as badly paid as you want but not declared) you shouldn't count as unemployed (which doesn't mean you wouldn't qualify for state help). But then again this is another matter: average salaries in spain are too low.

A.

[wonnski]

Fire 'em All

The solution has already been demonstrated, in the US in 1981.
Give them a short period of time to report to work, after that don't bother - you no longer have a job.
Privatize if needed, but salaries adjusted to a reasonable level, with fired strikers allowed to apply to work for the new lower wages.
If unemployment is high in Spain, there is no reason to believe that a high percentage wouldn't face reality.
Short term pain for aviation, but long term gain for Spain, and by extension, the rest of Europe.

[Microburst2002]

LH2

They screwed it totally, didn't they?
And after all, they will be totally screwed for nothing. they didn't have the balls to go to the end. they would have won, then. you can't jail all the ATCOs. Who would work then? Government would have had to negotiate.

I find funny your comment about the news

"read the spanish (well, Catalan) news"

Maybe you have been exposed to the nationalist tsunami, lately?

[fokker1000]

How many top quality guys and girls have lost thier jobs in aviation (in all departments) over the last couple of years? Far too many....

Spanish ATC is generally considered very well below average in Europe, whilst getting above average pay.

Why not TRY and show how fantastically well you do your job and therefore, deserve your pay? Are you able too??

If an engine goes bang for me at V1, I can't just unplug headset and walk away from my desk because I'm 'too stressed'.

[Guy D'ageradar]

Having sat in a control tower with a gun in my ear

Standard practice I believe, when the Kaiser.....sorry POTUS is involved. And then they inform you that they didn't bother to bring approach plates for the planned destination

Brings a whole new level of meaning to the term "cowboys"!!

[Microburst2002]

Aldegar

You really screwed it. You shouldn't have started the whole thing in the first place.
Did you think the Government would just sit with you and negotiate?
Why haven't you resisted one more day. Each one during his shift. And when they realised they cannot put all the aTCOs in jail, they would sit and negotiate.

Now they will screw you till death, anyway!

La habéis cagado de una manera colosal.
qué pena. Tantos problemas para tanta gente para nada.

Ahora os toca apechugar.