Spanish ATC
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
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Think you are dreaming there. Any decent company constructs flight logs and fuel calculation based on a STAR & SID being flown in its entirety. Maybe some sharp companies will possibly notice that previous fuel savings are not now happening, but they will probably blame the pilots (as usual) & leave it at that.
Don't say hello ? I doubt if the fatigued p1ssed off individual in the cockpit you speak to will give it more than a passing thought, probably he will just assume you didn't get laid the night before.
Indirect (very indirect if we are talking routings) action like this gets lost in the general clutter I hate to tell you. If you want to achieve anything it is direct action, or you are p1ssing into the wind Amigo.
As my fellow Brits would say, "put up or shutup"
What you are doing now is meaningless, ineffectual and doesn't actually bother anyone, as after a week or two they will just see it as the norm.
Look at the "big strike" in Spain a few weeks ago, well, that was a bit of a non-event ? ?
Best take some lessons from the French, mind you they ain't achieving so much at the moment.
Us "civilised" Europeans are becoming too good at being mounted rather than counted.
Don't say hello ? I doubt if the fatigued p1ssed off individual in the cockpit you speak to will give it more than a passing thought, probably he will just assume you didn't get laid the night before.
Indirect (very indirect if we are talking routings) action like this gets lost in the general clutter I hate to tell you. If you want to achieve anything it is direct action, or you are p1ssing into the wind Amigo.
As my fellow Brits would say, "put up or shutup"
What you are doing now is meaningless, ineffectual and doesn't actually bother anyone, as after a week or two they will just see it as the norm.
Look at the "big strike" in Spain a few weeks ago, well, that was a bit of a non-event ? ?
Best take some lessons from the French, mind you they ain't achieving so much at the moment.
Us "civilised" Europeans are becoming too good at being mounted rather than counted.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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I don't even say 'hello' anymore to pilots on first radio contact!
Isn't it pathetic to punish your c u s t o m e r s (if you know what the word means) with this devastating retribution instead of standing up for your rights like real men and women?
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Worse than pathetic, it is ineffectual ! ! 
do you think pilots are going to go running to their CP/DFO/CEO crying bitterly "Manuel didn't say hello! ! please call the President/Prime Minister/Chancellor/Finance Minister/Pope and demand the Spanish state reinstate these chaps former T's &C's" Er . . . I don't think so 
do you think pilots are going to go running to their CP/DFO/CEO crying bitterly "Manuel didn't say hello! ! please call the President/Prime Minister/Chancellor/Finance Minister/Pope and demand the Spanish state reinstate these chaps former T's &C's" Er . . . I don't think so
Join Date: May 2008
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Still no directs
Hello Amigo ATC,
Could you please explain more the no direct routings, if it is indeed the fault of AENA.
It seems we have AENA blaming the controllers and the controllers blaming AENA
Or si puedes adjuntar este directivo de AENA
Why are some controllers giving direct routings, others not then ?
The extra fuel, delays affects the environment and company profits and is not acceptable. Yes AENA is partly to blame.
In Barcelona we still have slots that do not make sense,
Separation between Aircraft on departure, in Barcelona is painful at times and increases delays.
Is there still a lot of turnover of controllers and its too much ?
Constantly having new controllers ( being trained ) in Barcelona affects the operation.
Could you please explain more the no direct routings, if it is indeed the fault of AENA.
It seems we have AENA blaming the controllers and the controllers blaming AENA
Or si puedes adjuntar este directivo de AENA
Why are some controllers giving direct routings, others not then ?
The extra fuel, delays affects the environment and company profits and is not acceptable. Yes AENA is partly to blame.
In Barcelona we still have slots that do not make sense,
Separation between Aircraft on departure, in Barcelona is painful at times and increases delays.
Is there still a lot of turnover of controllers and its too much ?
Constantly having new controllers ( being trained ) in Barcelona affects the operation.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where the company needs me not where I want to be!
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Idiot on the job training monitored
I love it when I hear that on the Atis.
Its not just the no direct and capped flight levels V Planned thats poor its the whole thing in general, you know its bad when flying with Spanish pilots who are embarrassed to say that they are there fellow countrymen.
Shame on you.
I love it when I hear that on the Atis.
Its not just the no direct and capped flight levels V Planned thats poor its the whole thing in general, you know its bad when flying with Spanish pilots who are embarrassed to say that they are there fellow countrymen.
Shame on you.
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Go on strike or work as normal but pls stop this BS!
New game is to release non spanish ACs just at the given CTOT time.
Once I learned that a CTOT includes the 5min before and the 10min after
but obviously I was wrong according to a PMI Tower controller who was telling me something about flowmanagment before handover to MRS FIR.
Needless to say we were waiting alone at PMIs 24R
New game is to release non spanish ACs just at the given CTOT time.
Once I learned that a CTOT includes the 5min before and the 10min after
but obviously I was wrong according to a PMI Tower controller who was telling me something about flowmanagment before handover to MRS FIR.
Needless to say we were waiting alone at PMIs 24R
Join Date: Feb 2010
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I do not understand all those complaints about not getting any directs. I am paid by the minute, and not saving those 5 minutes thru directs gives me 20 bucks more at month's end, per sector. 
Makes me smile!
Makes me smile!
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Those 5 minutes also equals 200 kg fuel burn on most medium sized aircrafts with subsequent pollution to the planet we all would like to maintain for our kids future, while still doing our jobs.
MOL said a very sensible thing not long ago: Sack all the spanish controllers, and employ people who actually want to do the work they are paid to do. (and maybe they could even employ people who would put pride into their jobs)
This nonsenes and childish behaviour from spanish atc has been on kindergarden level for long enough now.
MOL said a very sensible thing not long ago: Sack all the spanish controllers, and employ people who actually want to do the work they are paid to do. (and maybe they could even employ people who would put pride into their jobs)
This nonsenes and childish behaviour from spanish atc has been on kindergarden level for long enough now.
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Although I do agree that there are environmental costs to spanish ATC's work to rule I'm absolutely sure that those mentioning them only think of our legacy to the future when it suits them.
Air traffic basically can be seen as a process in which zillions of gallons of fossil fuels are burned at high altitudes in order to drive on the world's economy... which is also a planet killer, isn't it?
So can we just leave the hipocrisy out and get back to the topic?
There has been an interesting entry about the -5/+10 minute rule regarding CTOTs that needs some explaining.
Assuming a certain sector has a capacity for 10 flights at the same time while there are 10 or less expected, no regulation is issued. When the eleventh flight plan is entered, all 11 get a slot, but only the last one gets a delay. In those cases it is mandatory for ATCs to ensure that the slot is met precisely. Those -5/+10 are only for ATC use in terms of building up a departure secuence. If your regulation originated due to congestion of one of the sectors on your flight route then ATC should ensure that you meet exactly your CTOT even if your's is the only plane on the field and you've been ready for 20 minutes.
In Spain you also have to add the incompetency of our ANSP, AENA. This is a real picture showing 13 FPS at LEMD with CTOT at 15:20 (left data-block, first row in small print, written as white-on-black). As there are such things as wake turbulence separation it is simply impossible to meet these expectations.
Image from http://controladoresareosyotrashierbas.********.com
As for the efectiveness of this kind of low-intensity war, it is up to debate amongst controllers themselves. If you consider the current conflict as a guerilla-style warfare, it has the benefit of avoiding the other side to put up their heavy artillery (Aena is 100% state-owned and laws have been custom-made in order to favour her with only a parody of legality).
Iberia has acknowledged heavy losses due to this... perhaps with some time several airlines will put up enough pressure on european instances or the spanish ministry of infrastructures to end this conflict.
There will be some unpleasanties on both sides, don't take them personal. Just keep up the good work and please continue to file complaints through the appropriate channels.
Air traffic basically can be seen as a process in which zillions of gallons of fossil fuels are burned at high altitudes in order to drive on the world's economy... which is also a planet killer, isn't it?
So can we just leave the hipocrisy out and get back to the topic?
There has been an interesting entry about the -5/+10 minute rule regarding CTOTs that needs some explaining.
Assuming a certain sector has a capacity for 10 flights at the same time while there are 10 or less expected, no regulation is issued. When the eleventh flight plan is entered, all 11 get a slot, but only the last one gets a delay. In those cases it is mandatory for ATCs to ensure that the slot is met precisely. Those -5/+10 are only for ATC use in terms of building up a departure secuence. If your regulation originated due to congestion of one of the sectors on your flight route then ATC should ensure that you meet exactly your CTOT even if your's is the only plane on the field and you've been ready for 20 minutes.
In Spain you also have to add the incompetency of our ANSP, AENA. This is a real picture showing 13 FPS at LEMD with CTOT at 15:20 (left data-block, first row in small print, written as white-on-black). As there are such things as wake turbulence separation it is simply impossible to meet these expectations.
Image from http://controladoresareosyotrashierbas.********.com
As for the efectiveness of this kind of low-intensity war, it is up to debate amongst controllers themselves. If you consider the current conflict as a guerilla-style warfare, it has the benefit of avoiding the other side to put up their heavy artillery (Aena is 100% state-owned and laws have been custom-made in order to favour her with only a parody of legality).
Iberia has acknowledged heavy losses due to this... perhaps with some time several airlines will put up enough pressure on european instances or the spanish ministry of infrastructures to end this conflict.
There will be some unpleasanties on both sides, don't take them personal. Just keep up the good work and please continue to file complaints through the appropriate channels.
Join Date: Jul 2008
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WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?
Filed at FL300
ATC "RyanairXXXX Climb FL300"
RyanairXXXX "Climb FL300 RyanairXXXX"
ATC "RyanairXXXX what level do you request for cruise?"
RyanairXXXX "We are filed at FL300 but if available FL340"
ATC "Standby"
--------10seconds---------
ATC "RyanairXXXX negative, you have to maintain FL300."
RyanairXXXX (Both pilots looking at each other with a look of WTF?
needless too say frequencys quite and sod all on the TCAS near us the whole flight.
What was the point in even asking us.
Filed at FL300
ATC "RyanairXXXX Climb FL300"
RyanairXXXX "Climb FL300 RyanairXXXX"
ATC "RyanairXXXX what level do you request for cruise?"
RyanairXXXX "We are filed at FL300 but if available FL340"
ATC "Standby"
--------10seconds---------
ATC "RyanairXXXX negative, you have to maintain FL300."
RyanairXXXX (Both pilots looking at each other with a look of WTF?
needless too say frequencys quite and sod all on the TCAS near us the whole flight.
What was the point in even asking us.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?
Filed at FL300
ATC "RyanairXXXX Climb FL300"
RyanairXXXX "Climb FL300 RyanairXXXX"
ATC "RyanairXXXX what level do you request for cruise?"
RyanairXXXX "We are filed at FL300 but if available FL340"
ATC "Standby"
--------10seconds---------
ATC "RyanairXXXX negative, you have to maintain FL300."
RyanairXXXX (Both pilots looking at each other with a look of WTF?
needless too say frequencys quite and sod all on the TCAS near us the whole flight.
What was the point in even asking us.
Filed at FL300
ATC "RyanairXXXX Climb FL300"
RyanairXXXX "Climb FL300 RyanairXXXX"
ATC "RyanairXXXX what level do you request for cruise?"
RyanairXXXX "We are filed at FL300 but if available FL340"
ATC "Standby"
--------10seconds---------
ATC "RyanairXXXX negative, you have to maintain FL300."
RyanairXXXX (Both pilots looking at each other with a look of WTF?
needless too say frequencys quite and sod all on the TCAS near us the whole flight.
What was the point in even asking us.
Maybe its a vertically split sector and then one above the one you're in was busy and couldn't take you.
Maybe the next sector is vertically split and the higher one of the two couldn't work you at the level you wanted so you had to stay in the lower one (think CLN going to LMS/LUS at swanwick)
Maybe the next sector couldn't take you at your requested level
Maybe in the quiet sector the only traffic was a conflict to you
Maybe you should realise the TCAS is naff all use as an air traffic tool (i had a KLM ask for lower the other day my response was "negative traffic directly below you descent once you're clear" his "ohhhhhhh there he is" )
Maybe he doesn't want you to ask for a higher level when he gets busy (happens all the time)
Maybe he just doesn't like Ryanair
Maybe he just doesn't like the environment and wants to kill it just that little bit faster
Maybe he's a spanish controller who wants the aviation industry to collapse
Maybe he's a spanish controller who is working to rule to protect his terms and conditions that have been ripped up by his employers and government because they found found out they don't have enough staff and have been paying some alot of overtime.
How about, any other country probably a perfectly good reason to keep you where you are.
However, in Spain as there were no Spanairs, Iberias, cars or fuel trucks to hold you for he just did the next best thing and kept you low because he could!
However, in Spain as there were no Spanairs, Iberias, cars or fuel trucks to hold you for he just did the next best thing and kept you low because he could!
Join Date: Apr 2008
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WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?
(...)
RyanairXXXX "We are filed at FL300 but if available FL340"
(...)
RyanairXXXX "We are filed at FL300 but if available FL340"
And also, coming from a Ryanair pilot: "why the hell donīt you tell your company managers to stop making `friendsī among fellow ATCOīs, with public statements demanding to prohibit our right to strike, among others ..."
BTW, hello to everyone, Iīm back ...
Join Date: Aug 2010
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This ridiculous behavior needs to stop, now! Regardless of whether you are frustrated with Ryanair management, you need to stop treating the Ryanair employees as childishly as you have. We as crews have nothing at all to do with management and their attitude towards ATC, nor do we have anything to do with any and all legal battles that might ensue. I don't care what O'Leary says, he does not represent my views nor does he speak for any of my colleagues to my knowledge. We're all just doing to do our job to the best of our abilities, with the best interests of our passengers in mind. This attitude you have is completely unprofessional. Take out your frustration on your superiors if you must, but leave the people who have ****-all to do with it alone!
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There are many reasons why we might request a level different to the flight plan.
Why the hell don't you include "Flexibility" in your job description?
The primary purpose of ATC systems worldwide is to separate aircraft to prevent collisions, to organize and expedite the flow of traffic.
Still, none out of three aint bad is it?!
Why the hell don't you include "Flexibility" in your job description?
The primary purpose of ATC systems worldwide is to separate aircraft to prevent collisions, to organize and expedite the flow of traffic.
Still, none out of three aint bad is it?!
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Just file at FL430 and then pick what you want and tell them unable 43 due weight, unprofessional - yes, economical - yes, frustrating on the Spanish ATC trying to frustrate me - yes, cocking up the system - yes....
What is blindingly obvious, is how good other controllers are. This is what highlights how poor/unhelpful Spanish ATC can be.. It's a real shame as tourism is a major part of their economy.
A month or two ago we called for push/start in AGP [no slot restriction etc]. Then called for taxi to be told to hold in present postion due large que at the hold. why the hell would ATC at a busy airport not just say 'start delayed for 10 minutes due congestion'. That IMHO is truely pathetic.
As I've said before you really wouldn't want to have a major problem in their airspace, rather be over West Africa to be honest!
A month or two ago we called for push/start in AGP [no slot restriction etc]. Then called for taxi to be told to hold in present postion due large que at the hold. why the hell would ATC at a busy airport not just say 'start delayed for 10 minutes due congestion'. That IMHO is truely pathetic.
As I've said before you really wouldn't want to have a major problem in their airspace, rather be over West Africa to be honest!
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d105, if your company's boss makes comments like that, and spanish ATC doesn't let you climb, why do you take that so personally? Are you paying for the fuel? Is a large portion of your wage based on the profitability of your airline?
I personally hate what MOL stands for, and what he is doing/has done to the industry. But I don't think every Ryan pilot has the same believes... Have him pay for fuel for saying things like that!
I am with spanish ATC on this, they are getting screwed by privatisation, by the Zeitgeist of producing everything as cheaply as possible and finding consensus on the lowest denominator.
And if they don't reply to my buenas tardes or not doesn't phase me a bit, my grumpy countrymen of especially Bremen radar (the other ones aren't much better) don't even reply to a have a good day or the like. If one takes all this as personal, it would be advisable to find a good cardiologist.
Nic, y buena suerte a ATC espaniol!
I personally hate what MOL stands for, and what he is doing/has done to the industry. But I don't think every Ryan pilot has the same believes... Have him pay for fuel for saying things like that!
I am with spanish ATC on this, they are getting screwed by privatisation, by the Zeitgeist of producing everything as cheaply as possible and finding consensus on the lowest denominator.
And if they don't reply to my buenas tardes or not doesn't phase me a bit, my grumpy countrymen of especially Bremen radar (the other ones aren't much better) don't even reply to a have a good day or the like. If one takes all this as personal, it would be advisable to find a good cardiologist.
Nic, y buena suerte a ATC espaniol!
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Probably most of you (pilots) ignore one little but VERY VERY IMPORTANT THING:
the level you file in the FPL/RPL is what counts in the CFMU to calculate sector capacity/occupancy.
therefore,if you want to fly at a different level you might occupy another sector which is not supposed to have you there.
of course there are lot of different ways to handle such situation (being positive or negative the response),but still,there are several good reasons not to climb you to your RFL.
and trust me,in germany (DFS) are even more strict than the spaniards when it comes to Flight Plan Adherence Policy,some guys in Karlsruhe even complain if you send traffic direct,without talking about FLs (I've seen with my own eyes traffic having to be descended from FL380 to 320 because of such a reason (a pure overflight with a destination far enough to NOT justify a descent)
just my 0.02%
G
the level you file in the FPL/RPL is what counts in the CFMU to calculate sector capacity/occupancy.
therefore,if you want to fly at a different level you might occupy another sector which is not supposed to have you there.
of course there are lot of different ways to handle such situation (being positive or negative the response),but still,there are several good reasons not to climb you to your RFL.
and trust me,in germany (DFS) are even more strict than the spaniards when it comes to Flight Plan Adherence Policy,some guys in Karlsruhe even complain if you send traffic direct,without talking about FLs (I've seen with my own eyes traffic having to be descended from FL380 to 320 because of such a reason (a pure overflight with a destination far enough to NOT justify a descent)
just my 0.02%
G
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Sent the long way round at LEMG whilst a spanish aircraft was given shortcuts (I was with a spanish speaking captain, he let me know what was going on as ATC were speaking in spanish/english). We were then radar vectored to a 18/20 mile final.
On more than one occasion mobile phone interference has rendered the ATC transmissions unintelligible. Even when there are no mobiles on the radios are often poor and difficult to read.
If they deserve the wages then the London guys/girls are underpaid!!
Cheers
On more than one occasion mobile phone interference has rendered the ATC transmissions unintelligible. Even when there are no mobiles on the radios are often poor and difficult to read.
If they deserve the wages then the London guys/girls are underpaid!!
Cheers