South African ATC
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"I think all OJTI's must refuse training"
this is ridiculous and irresponsible!!!
at the CANSO AGM 2009 the global ANSP community decided to launch a call for supporting South Africa during Football World Cup 2010.
this is an outstanding initiative and action of solidarity of the global ATM community ... and you guys you think all OJTIs should refuse training.
this is a smash into all the ATCOs faces accepting temporarely shortage of staff in their own european ANSP for supporting ATNS and South Africa. Shame on you !!!
at the CANSO AGM 2009 the global ANSP community decided to launch a call for supporting South Africa during Football World Cup 2010.
this is an outstanding initiative and action of solidarity of the global ATM community ... and you guys you think all OJTIs should refuse training.
this is a smash into all the ATCOs faces accepting temporarely shortage of staff in their own european ANSP for supporting ATNS and South Africa. Shame on you !!!
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accepting temporarely shortage of staff in their own european ANSP for supporting ATNS and South Africa.
You management stooges are all the same- you think everyone else are idiots!
Obviously the staff at ATNS- you know the ones, the ones who are there year in year out fighting constantly for decent conditions- finally get some leverage, and you have the gall to attack them because they they won't train people (people on better terms and conditions) coming (for a few months) to piss on that leverage! Whilst CANSO is a sort of union of ANSPs, the idea that they are acting in the interests of South Africa is laughable.
You are the one who should be ashamed! Allow industrial matters to run their course, without foreign intervention. If ATNS wanted to, they could've had all the controllers they needed long ago. As with many controllers around the world, often the only recourse is to LEAVE.
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Senior Atco
I noticed that this is your first post on PPRuNe, so I can only hope that you have read this whole thread before posting your comment...
I also have to assume (yes, I know...) that you only have bits and pieces of info about the inner workings of ATNS and the politics involved.
Here are a few 'highlights':
- Since the company was founded in the early 90's, it has never had the 106% staffing levels that is ideal - never came close.
- People still left the company to go and work in other countries (some just left and persued other options in SA) and the company did not see this as a problem. That's the impression we got...
- The Retention Contracts we're supposed to keep everyone here as it was hailed as the best option... now, the ATC's that did leave with a contract are being sued for more that was paid to them (including Tax). If you want more details, read this thread from the start...
- During our salary negotiation this year, the company's negotiator went on vacation, with no-one else to in their stead... Brilliant!!
- The company argued major losses in revenue because of the world economic 'crisis', so the Arbitrator decded in the company's favor - 8.5%. Yeah right, your payslip said 6.5% (2% was for OJTI increase). Oh, almost forgot, the 6.5% was not on your total income, so it went down to about 4.x%. And to crown it al, the 2009 Year report show a R50mil profit...
- The company begged the union to accept an increase in Cape Town OJTI from Jan 2010 (the rest of the coutry have to wait until 1 April 2010) after a 'mishap'... I cannot give furter details.
- For next year's increase, the company is still claiming less income, but the newspapers and outlook for 2010 is being sketched as much more rosy.
These are just the highlights, so hopefully you'll have a bit more restrain in your comments for your next post. If the company (and the worlds' ANSP showed this kind heartedness) last year, it might have been a whole different story!
Most of the OJTI's have no problem in training people from SA who will stay here, but to train foreigners (on a paysheet salary the same as ours as promised by ATNS, but the cost to company to get them here is rediculous!) who will leave just after SWC 2010 - think again. The ATC's have bailed the company out of enough trouble in the past and this time, they are starting to stand together...
I'm sure most of us are gratefull for ATNS for providing us with a job that we like to do, but we cannot accept the way we are being treated any more.
I noticed that this is your first post on PPRuNe, so I can only hope that you have read this whole thread before posting your comment...
I also have to assume (yes, I know...) that you only have bits and pieces of info about the inner workings of ATNS and the politics involved.
Here are a few 'highlights':
- Since the company was founded in the early 90's, it has never had the 106% staffing levels that is ideal - never came close.
- People still left the company to go and work in other countries (some just left and persued other options in SA) and the company did not see this as a problem. That's the impression we got...
- The Retention Contracts we're supposed to keep everyone here as it was hailed as the best option... now, the ATC's that did leave with a contract are being sued for more that was paid to them (including Tax). If you want more details, read this thread from the start...
- During our salary negotiation this year, the company's negotiator went on vacation, with no-one else to in their stead... Brilliant!!
- The company argued major losses in revenue because of the world economic 'crisis', so the Arbitrator decded in the company's favor - 8.5%. Yeah right, your payslip said 6.5% (2% was for OJTI increase). Oh, almost forgot, the 6.5% was not on your total income, so it went down to about 4.x%. And to crown it al, the 2009 Year report show a R50mil profit...
- The company begged the union to accept an increase in Cape Town OJTI from Jan 2010 (the rest of the coutry have to wait until 1 April 2010) after a 'mishap'... I cannot give furter details.
- For next year's increase, the company is still claiming less income, but the newspapers and outlook for 2010 is being sketched as much more rosy.
These are just the highlights, so hopefully you'll have a bit more restrain in your comments for your next post. If the company (and the worlds' ANSP showed this kind heartedness) last year, it might have been a whole different story!
Most of the OJTI's have no problem in training people from SA who will stay here, but to train foreigners (on a paysheet salary the same as ours as promised by ATNS, but the cost to company to get them here is rediculous!) who will leave just after SWC 2010 - think again. The ATC's have bailed the company out of enough trouble in the past and this time, they are starting to stand together...
I'm sure most of us are gratefull for ATNS for providing us with a job that we like to do, but we cannot accept the way we are being treated any more.
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RadarMaggot
RadarMaggot .. I do respect and understand your response. Nevertheless I know what I am talking about. Trust me that the only thought in mind of the global atm community is to help ATNS.
The comments of the other 2 atc fellows are respectless, insulting and just confirm the attitude of union leaders against management.
If you guys are not happy in ATNS you have the choice to leave, it is as easy as that!
The comments of the other 2 atc fellows are respectless, insulting and just confirm the attitude of union leaders against management.
If you guys are not happy in ATNS you have the choice to leave, it is as easy as that!
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And that, Senior ATCO, is your quintessential, yet self effacing, Vidkun Quisling moment.
Haul out your favourite Norman Mailor, ease yourself into the shade -force that glorious cocktail of a shooter with your most treasured downers into your de-sensitized repertoire you call living and bid the cruel, near sandanista-like world a blurred good-bye until next time....be that next time what it may. Your warm fuzzy abyss of abscinth, colourful capsules and Mailor will serve as your ICU ward.........be well.......
Haul out your favourite Norman Mailor, ease yourself into the shade -force that glorious cocktail of a shooter with your most treasured downers into your de-sensitized repertoire you call living and bid the cruel, near sandanista-like world a blurred good-bye until next time....be that next time what it may. Your warm fuzzy abyss of abscinth, colourful capsules and Mailor will serve as your ICU ward.........be well.......
or
You could actually read several papers and magazines that relate to ANSP's and associated unions etc, etc - and how they actually function in relation to the already decades old global maraketability of professionals in aviation.......and from that/once it is done........carefully review your venacular prior to use................especially when you venture into the world of print. Step-by-step........bigger things will follow........
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atc fellows are respectless, insulting and just confirm the attitude of union leaders against management.
Trust me that the only thought in mind of the global atm community is to help ATNS.
If you guys are not happy in ATNS you have the choice to leave, it is as easy as that!
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Senior ATCO you have no idea, do you?
I'm not sure whether ferris has worked in SA (or is working here currently), but I have to agree with his "insult". He also has a good grasp of management, especially ATNS management.
While you and many so called helpful ANSP's are there to support ATNS in their hour of need, the management team are only there to help themselves!!
ATNS has known about SWC 2010 since 2006, and what have they done? they've embarked on a pointless retention strategy, which has, or will blow up in a very spectacular fashion.
Regarding ATC's, they've done fairly little. About 8 months ago, they approached Swiss ATC's, without the knowledge of the Union or Proffessional Association. That didn't go down that well. There most recent endeavour was to recruit Swedes. The salary they stated in the ad was "wrong".
Why should I train you, if you will be earning twice my cost-to-company while you will be here (that's without relocation)? After your "African adventure", do you know what we ATNS'ers will be left with? I'll tell you, a company full of promises about a big fat bonus, which will never happen.
Let me give you a rundown of 2 of our senior managers; Firstly there is the Executive Manager: Service Delivery (quite important, don't you think?). This is a person that has no idea of ATC, or even aviation. She used to work at a local airline which operates Dash 8-C's. Her contribution to saving money was that there should only be one pilot in the cockpit, because why do they need two crew in the cockpit anyway. She does even write her own e-mails pertaining to Service Delivery, because she has no clue as to what to write!!!
Secondly, there is the Senior Manager: Operations. He was never a good ATC to start with, so management was his next step.WHAT A BULLSH!TTER. He has no idea of ATC. He can never give a striaght answer. There is never a simple "yes" "no" with him. His latest brain-fart is that we should not have stadby duties at all, because get this, if the standby is not activated, that means there is a ATC sitting at home doing nothing!!
Acooring to him we should then just combine sectors and the TFC should stay on the ground.
Fact is ATNS manages like an Ostrich. When the sh!t hits the fan, the hide there heads in a hole (often there own assholes) and hope for the best.
About youor comment that we have a choice to leave if we're not happy; yes the ooption is there, and is being persued by many at this time, and a whole lot more in about a year or so. The downside to this is that you leave everything you know behind, which is not entirely a bad thing. If things don't work out for you though, and you return to the employ of ATNS, your new THREE YEAR contract will state that you have no pension benefit, and also that ATNS can give you a month notice to terminate your employment, without having to give a reason for said termination.
All I can say is: "nice ATNS. Best company to work for, my lilly white
!!!"
I'm not sure whether ferris has worked in SA (or is working here currently), but I have to agree with his "insult". He also has a good grasp of management, especially ATNS management.
While you and many so called helpful ANSP's are there to support ATNS in their hour of need, the management team are only there to help themselves!!
ATNS has known about SWC 2010 since 2006, and what have they done? they've embarked on a pointless retention strategy, which has, or will blow up in a very spectacular fashion.
Regarding ATC's, they've done fairly little. About 8 months ago, they approached Swiss ATC's, without the knowledge of the Union or Proffessional Association. That didn't go down that well. There most recent endeavour was to recruit Swedes. The salary they stated in the ad was "wrong".
Why should I train you, if you will be earning twice my cost-to-company while you will be here (that's without relocation)? After your "African adventure", do you know what we ATNS'ers will be left with? I'll tell you, a company full of promises about a big fat bonus, which will never happen.
Let me give you a rundown of 2 of our senior managers; Firstly there is the Executive Manager: Service Delivery (quite important, don't you think?). This is a person that has no idea of ATC, or even aviation. She used to work at a local airline which operates Dash 8-C's. Her contribution to saving money was that there should only be one pilot in the cockpit, because why do they need two crew in the cockpit anyway. She does even write her own e-mails pertaining to Service Delivery, because she has no clue as to what to write!!!
Secondly, there is the Senior Manager: Operations. He was never a good ATC to start with, so management was his next step.WHAT A BULLSH!TTER. He has no idea of ATC. He can never give a striaght answer. There is never a simple "yes" "no" with him. His latest brain-fart is that we should not have stadby duties at all, because get this, if the standby is not activated, that means there is a ATC sitting at home doing nothing!!
Acooring to him we should then just combine sectors and the TFC should stay on the ground.Fact is ATNS manages like an Ostrich. When the sh!t hits the fan, the hide there heads in a hole (often there own assholes) and hope for the best.
About youor comment that we have a choice to leave if we're not happy; yes the ooption is there, and is being persued by many at this time, and a whole lot more in about a year or so. The downside to this is that you leave everything you know behind, which is not entirely a bad thing. If things don't work out for you though, and you return to the employ of ATNS, your new THREE YEAR contract will state that you have no pension benefit, and also that ATNS can give you a month notice to terminate your employment, without having to give a reason for said termination.
All I can say is: "nice ATNS. Best company to work for, my lilly white
!!!"
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Leaders are not born. They are made.
There is sometimes a gap in management´s skills and the real world requirements. Even with ANSP:s. 
Some of the reasons are described excellently here: Leading without authority
One point is that in order to climb on the ladder you have to be an opportunist when "beginning the climb". Problem is that many of the managers stay opportunists when they should evolve. Evolve towards more effective leadership traits.
Opportunist:
Sound familiar anyone?
Some are even experts:
Some leaders are combinations of those. Anybody you might know perhaps?
The point is that leaders are not born. They are made.
Which ANSP does have an active "leadership training program" or "leadership culture"? Historically ANSP:s are administrative organizations. I think this is the big reason that there is not even an understanding of a need of personal growth for leaders. In many cases.
I am so happy and grateful that there are positive exceptions to this kind of thinking.
Some of the reasons are described excellently here: Leading without authorityOne point is that in order to climb on the ladder you have to be an opportunist when "beginning the climb". Problem is that many of the managers stay opportunists when they should evolve. Evolve towards more effective leadership traits.
Opportunist:
- Focus on personal will
- Externalize blame
- Reject feedback
- Use retaliation as a tool to lead
Sound familiar anyone?
Some are even experts:
- Overconfidence
- Effectively uses logic/hard data
- Contempt for those who do not work hard
- "my way or the highway" attitude
Some leaders are combinations of those. Anybody you might know perhaps?
The point is that leaders are not born. They are made.
Which ANSP does have an active "leadership training program" or "leadership culture"? Historically ANSP:s are administrative organizations. I think this is the big reason that there is not even an understanding of a need of personal growth for leaders. In many cases.
I am so happy and grateful that there are positive exceptions to this kind of thinking.
Last edited by Yippee; 26th Nov 2009 at 15:25. Reason: Correcting typos
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"Secondly, there is the Senior Manager: Operations. He was never a good ATC to start with, so management was his next step.WHAT A BULLSH!TTER. He has no idea of ATC."
Sweeeet Daaaawgiee!!.....love to see his face if ever he did read this, moermeter would simply implode...
Just running through this Satco chappie's word placement and general print english...have to say it smacks of a wind-up at best, at worst some kid new into management (ATNS that is, dont let the luxemborg origin misdirect you) who has embraced company principles/value's etc, etc.
I have been through one retention package (honeymoon package that soon lost its veneer) and have witnessed from afar, the complete failure of sucessive ones. Therefore to finally be reading that there is the slightest possibility that the essential services tag might be lifted, thus unshackling SA ATCO's to have a more effective bargaining position at either increment time or when deemed necessary is way over due. I sincerely hope it all works out for the SA ATCO's.
To Satco, whoever you are, I know the paradigm's that exist amongst the controllers there and the mere fact that they nurture their own career path and take great pride in the self discipline they take with them on duty, in no way translates to a conceited, near xenophobic stance that you imply. The confines and other vicissitudes that they operate within and under on a day-to-day basis on its own ensures that the SWC'10 is now something more than just a challenge to field operatives.
To label their current intentions and course of action as 'irresponsible' is evidence of either complete ignorance on your part or as stated earlier, a simple little wind-up for your own gratification.
Sweeeet Daaaawgiee!!.....love to see his face if ever he did read this, moermeter would simply implode...
Just running through this Satco chappie's word placement and general print english...have to say it smacks of a wind-up at best, at worst some kid new into management (ATNS that is, dont let the luxemborg origin misdirect you) who has embraced company principles/value's etc, etc.
I have been through one retention package (honeymoon package that soon lost its veneer) and have witnessed from afar, the complete failure of sucessive ones. Therefore to finally be reading that there is the slightest possibility that the essential services tag might be lifted, thus unshackling SA ATCO's to have a more effective bargaining position at either increment time or when deemed necessary is way over due. I sincerely hope it all works out for the SA ATCO's.
To Satco, whoever you are, I know the paradigm's that exist amongst the controllers there and the mere fact that they nurture their own career path and take great pride in the self discipline they take with them on duty, in no way translates to a conceited, near xenophobic stance that you imply. The confines and other vicissitudes that they operate within and under on a day-to-day basis on its own ensures that the SWC'10 is now something more than just a challenge to field operatives.
To label their current intentions and course of action as 'irresponsible' is evidence of either complete ignorance on your part or as stated earlier, a simple little wind-up for your own gratification.
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Ok, ok.....
First of all, I'm not quite sure everyone should be so hard on Senior ATC. I really think what he says is true. I started this thread because I thought I would get a chance to come and work in S.A, not just over the WC, but for a couple of years. That all changed, as we all know, and it was at a later stage that the idea of hiring ATCO:s for just the WC came up. (at least that's what I've come to think)
I totally agree with the statement that the global community would like to help our South African colleagues in bringing it all together during the WC. At the same time I, of course, understand the frustration of you guys already working there that have been trying for years to get more appreciation for the work you're doing. BUT- you can't treat the guys, that might be coming (looks like no-one now, though) as they were some kind of management just coming to squeeze out as much money as possible! I can assure you that anyone coming to S.A with any kind of contract would do so with good intentions.
This whole I-hate-the-management-whoever-they-are is really starting to get a bit tiring. I've seen my fair share of bad management as well, but I've also learned another lesson when it comes to management during my 11 years as an atco - people never like the management, even when they're doing a good job!!!! (which happens from time to time and no- I'm not management) ;-)
It's probably the same in most businesses but I have the feeling that in ATC we really have a tendency of complaining too much. Maybe the situation in S.A calls for it, but it's more or less the same at all the places I know.
I must admit I didn't know how bad the situation was in S.A until some of you enlightened me on this forum. If only half of it is true, it's really bad. People leaving all the time, management making terrible and arrogant decisions, and the general working conditions with bad pay and a lot of over-time. I don't think any of the formerly interested foreign ATCO:s knew about this. Therefore- don't blame them!
Let me ask you this – why hasn't the union come together sooner to try to reach better conditions and solve the whole problem, for the W.C and afterwards? As it seems, these problems have existed for a very long time and all people have been doing is complaining about it. There is, of course, a huge chance of making a clear statement during the W.C, but I personally don't think that'll happen. I'm quite certain that you guys will give it all you've got and solve everything as it comes. Then what? What happens afterwards? I would say- nothing! Unless you manage to get everyone together and try to change things, everything will continue as before.
Therefore my opinion is that you should be happy for every foreign ATCO being willing to come and help you out, should the situation allow for it. Yes, they might make more money than you do, which of course is far from fair, but hey – where in the world would anyone move to a foreign country (for a longer or shorter amount of time) without getting anything back??? Be it that it's not fair – that's the way it works. It has nothing to do with that a certain individual wants more than everyone else, when the working conditions are as bad as they seem to be in S.A – every help you could expect to get from anyone would cost.
You now say you don't want any help and would refuse to train any foreign ATCO:s coming. Has that decision emerged during the last couple of months? You have accepted help before, even though it hasn't particularly made your situation better in general up until now.
What are the reasons for that decision? You would be making a point, for sure, but what are the obvious advantages? Pissing off the management? I thinks it's the wrong way to go. If, or when, anyone would come it's already too late to do anything about it. Then you'll just punish an innocent individual. I'm sure your management won't care that much. They'll just let you guys work a bit harder and more to solve the problem you created yourselves.
If, however, you plan to really stand together to try to change your situation for the future, not just for the W.C, then I guess your method could work but it requires that EVERYONE is in on it, which I personally think will be difficult.
First of all, I'm not quite sure everyone should be so hard on Senior ATC. I really think what he says is true. I started this thread because I thought I would get a chance to come and work in S.A, not just over the WC, but for a couple of years. That all changed, as we all know, and it was at a later stage that the idea of hiring ATCO:s for just the WC came up. (at least that's what I've come to think)
I totally agree with the statement that the global community would like to help our South African colleagues in bringing it all together during the WC. At the same time I, of course, understand the frustration of you guys already working there that have been trying for years to get more appreciation for the work you're doing. BUT- you can't treat the guys, that might be coming (looks like no-one now, though) as they were some kind of management just coming to squeeze out as much money as possible! I can assure you that anyone coming to S.A with any kind of contract would do so with good intentions.
This whole I-hate-the-management-whoever-they-are is really starting to get a bit tiring. I've seen my fair share of bad management as well, but I've also learned another lesson when it comes to management during my 11 years as an atco - people never like the management, even when they're doing a good job!!!! (which happens from time to time and no- I'm not management) ;-)
It's probably the same in most businesses but I have the feeling that in ATC we really have a tendency of complaining too much. Maybe the situation in S.A calls for it, but it's more or less the same at all the places I know.
I must admit I didn't know how bad the situation was in S.A until some of you enlightened me on this forum. If only half of it is true, it's really bad. People leaving all the time, management making terrible and arrogant decisions, and the general working conditions with bad pay and a lot of over-time. I don't think any of the formerly interested foreign ATCO:s knew about this. Therefore- don't blame them!
Let me ask you this – why hasn't the union come together sooner to try to reach better conditions and solve the whole problem, for the W.C and afterwards? As it seems, these problems have existed for a very long time and all people have been doing is complaining about it. There is, of course, a huge chance of making a clear statement during the W.C, but I personally don't think that'll happen. I'm quite certain that you guys will give it all you've got and solve everything as it comes. Then what? What happens afterwards? I would say- nothing! Unless you manage to get everyone together and try to change things, everything will continue as before.
Therefore my opinion is that you should be happy for every foreign ATCO being willing to come and help you out, should the situation allow for it. Yes, they might make more money than you do, which of course is far from fair, but hey – where in the world would anyone move to a foreign country (for a longer or shorter amount of time) without getting anything back??? Be it that it's not fair – that's the way it works. It has nothing to do with that a certain individual wants more than everyone else, when the working conditions are as bad as they seem to be in S.A – every help you could expect to get from anyone would cost.
You now say you don't want any help and would refuse to train any foreign ATCO:s coming. Has that decision emerged during the last couple of months? You have accepted help before, even though it hasn't particularly made your situation better in general up until now.
What are the reasons for that decision? You would be making a point, for sure, but what are the obvious advantages? Pissing off the management? I thinks it's the wrong way to go. If, or when, anyone would come it's already too late to do anything about it. Then you'll just punish an innocent individual. I'm sure your management won't care that much. They'll just let you guys work a bit harder and more to solve the problem you created yourselves.
If, however, you plan to really stand together to try to change your situation for the future, not just for the W.C, then I guess your method could work but it requires that EVERYONE is in on it, which I personally think will be difficult.
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Not so hard on him?
So what are you saying? The guys there should do nothing and just continue on under their inept leadership, bowing their heads and just accepting their lot? A rare opportunity has presented itself to actually get some leverage in their desire to improve their conditions. I thought it would be natural to expect some ill-will towards people from elsewhere who have NO CARE WHATSOEVER about the impact their arrival will have on that position. They would merely be coming for a short-term change of scenery, without taking any of the pain that will endure on those expected to train them. Let them come on "local conditions" if this is all so altruistic!
Probably notable in this industry due to the crystallisation effect of the lack of portability of skills. There is only usually one ANSP in every country, so the ability to up and 'leave if you dont like it' is drastically reduced. The effect is two-fold; bad management perpetuates because there is no competition/change driver, and ill-will festers because employees feel trapped. Very very few actually leave, regardless of how unhappy they are.
Ignorance as an excuse? Interesting idea.....
This whole I-hate-the-management-whoever-they-are is really starting to get a bit tiring.
I don't think any of the formerly interested foreign ATCO:s knew about this. Therefore- don't blame them!
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CuitoCuanavale,
I must admit, I am just a little bit wound-up at what we as ATC's have to put up with. Would you lke to work under the mentioned management.
Alps,
The only thing that would've happened is that you would not have gotten dual. I cannot speak for the Cape Town people, but you would've been welcomed in Jo'burg. As a matter of fact, you would've been invited into our homes, we would've shown you where to go, and where not to go(for your own safety). We would've all enjoyed many drinks together!!!
Please don't think that any of us have xenophobic attitudes, because that is certainly not the case. I reckon the thinking was that with foreign ATC's here, earning bigger salaries that us, not getting any dual, would've forced ATNS to acknowledge us and our contribution, thereby giving us some leverage when you leave.
ATNS unfortunately often does their won thing, without consulting the Union. They seem to be a law unto themselves.
ferris,
Thanks for all your support.
I must admit, I am just a little bit wound-up at what we as ATC's have to put up with. Would you lke to work under the mentioned management.
Alps,
The only thing that would've happened is that you would not have gotten dual. I cannot speak for the Cape Town people, but you would've been welcomed in Jo'burg. As a matter of fact, you would've been invited into our homes, we would've shown you where to go, and where not to go(for your own safety). We would've all enjoyed many drinks together!!!
Please don't think that any of us have xenophobic attitudes, because that is certainly not the case. I reckon the thinking was that with foreign ATC's here, earning bigger salaries that us, not getting any dual, would've forced ATNS to acknowledge us and our contribution, thereby giving us some leverage when you leave.
ATNS unfortunately often does their won thing, without consulting the Union. They seem to be a law unto themselves.
ferris,
Thanks for all your support.
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Ignorance as an excuse? Interesting idea.....
How many of the persons concerned (foreign atc's who have been interested in coming to S.A), do you think, read this forum? Not that many. Where else could you get information about the present state of ATNS if you don't know anyone working there personally? Beats me. Call that ignorance if you want - it sounds ridiculous to me to imply such a thing.
I do, however, wish you guys all the best for the W.C and afterwards and, of course, I hope you eventually get what you want and deserve.
Maybe I'll see you in the future.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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It has nothing to do with ignorance
Where else could you get information about the present state of ATNS if you don't know anyone working there personally? Beats me.
You definitely are management material- "it's not ignorance, it's 'lack of information'"!! Gold
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Ferris
Ferris,
I truly am glad I never will have to work with you.
Talk about ignorance...
To the rest of you - keep your heads up and good luck to you!
I truly am glad I never will have to work with you.
Talk about ignorance...
To the rest of you - keep your heads up and good luck to you!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: South Africa
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Recycle bin
Deleted items get send to the recycle bin.Sometimes the recycle bin needs to be emtied,it can slow the system down!
There are those files that can be deleted and no one will notice. Files that no one knows how to delete and then there are virusses etc
To rectify the problem we need to appoint an external auditing company to find the problem at 2 million rand. This we have to do once a year with a different company.Then all problems get blamed on staff shortage and we don't have to delete,emty or fix anything. and we wait patiently for the next survey at 2 million rand!( Sounds familiar )
I do believe that before SWC 2010 a few management positions might become vacant due targets/deadlines not made.If I am not mistaken 2 already bailed out.
(latest positions advertised on noticeboard)I think more will be exposed and jump the ship in due future.My prediction, 6 in total-watch this space!!
I mean rumours travel very fast about applications elsewhere.Where there is smoke there is fire!!!
Place your bets
There are those files that can be deleted and no one will notice. Files that no one knows how to delete and then there are virusses etc
To rectify the problem we need to appoint an external auditing company to find the problem at 2 million rand.
This we have to do once a year with a different company.Then all problems get blamed on staff shortage and we don't have to delete,emty or fix anything. and we wait patiently for the next survey at 2 million rand!( Sounds familiar )I do believe that before SWC 2010 a few management positions might become vacant due targets/deadlines not made.If I am not mistaken 2 already bailed out.
(latest positions advertised on noticeboard)I think more will be exposed and jump the ship in due future.My prediction, 6 in total-watch this space!!I mean rumours travel very fast about applications elsewhere.Where there is smoke there is fire!!!
Place your bets
Join Date: Oct 2007
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The same theme seems to be repeated in pretty much all postings on this thread that being the existence of a huge question mark over management, in general, but primarily executive as that is normally where the lead is taken from. Not altogether watershed in any corporate environment, but since holistically the technical service delivery is (unless of course that has altered, which would be somewhat revealing) the core business of ATNS, it is cause for grave concern. That and the fact that the same issues resurface year after year in a virtual “Dog Day Afternoon” scenario.
In any event, most every controller that has at some stage worked in South Africa (be it DCA era or ATNS era or both), has great empathy for what is transpiring, especially as the shadow of SWC ’10 looms larger. It is also encouraging to note the positive support and grasp of events that controllers who seem never to have worked in SA, have on what current controllers there are enduring.
Late 1976 I am somewhat surprised at your swipe at me as if anything, I was illustrating resolute support for all controllers there and in no way intimated to the contrary. I think you need to re-visit my post….carefully.
In any event, most every controller that has at some stage worked in South Africa (be it DCA era or ATNS era or both), has great empathy for what is transpiring, especially as the shadow of SWC ’10 looms larger. It is also encouraging to note the positive support and grasp of events that controllers who seem never to have worked in SA, have on what current controllers there are enduring.
Late 1976 I am somewhat surprised at your swipe at me as if anything, I was illustrating resolute support for all controllers there and in no way intimated to the contrary. I think you need to re-visit my post….carefully.
Join Date: Apr 2009
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My 50c worth
I have empathy with all that complain about ATNS.It can be so easy for the top brass to fix the problems in the company but incompetence seems to be the norm in SA companies these days. Here is something a bit different.
I took a look at the new airport in Durban this week. My impressions is: WHO THE HELL DISIGNED THE AIRPORT. Not someone that knows anything about ATC. Instead of designing a world class airport they cocked it up totally.
Traffic will flow better at the current airport than at the brand new one and they want to TRY and open it a month before the SWC.
What a letdown.
I took a look at the new airport in Durban this week. My impressions is: WHO THE HELL DISIGNED THE AIRPORT
. Not someone that knows anything about ATC. Instead of designing a world class airport they cocked it up totally. Traffic will flow better at the current airport than at the brand new one and they want to TRY and open it a month before the SWC.
What a letdown.
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CuitoCuanavale,
I did not intend to take a swipe at you at all! So, I apologise. I merely stated that I am wound-up (which I am indeed), and also wanted to know whether you would be willing to work under the current management regime.
We are truly thankfull for all the support we receive, even if it's the sympathy we receive from other ATC's!
I did not intend to take a swipe at you at all! So, I apologise. I merely stated that I am wound-up (which I am indeed), and also wanted to know whether you would be willing to work under the current management regime.
We are truly thankfull for all the support we receive, even if it's the sympathy we receive from other ATC's!