South African ATC
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South African ATC
Just wanted to check if anyone has any info on the fact that S.A might lease european atco:s next year.
I work at one of the ANSP:s that has been contacted for a lease and it sounds quite tempting I must admit (trying something new but keeping the sallary and not having to resign)
Would be interresting to hear what any of the locals have to say about all this. Understand that it could be quite a sensitive subject.
In addition to that there's not much positive to be read about the job in this forum...
I work at one of the ANSP:s that has been contacted for a lease and it sounds quite tempting I must admit (trying something new but keeping the sallary and not having to resign)
Would be interresting to hear what any of the locals have to say about all this. Understand that it could be quite a sensitive subject.
In addition to that there's not much positive to be read about the job in this forum...
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Looks like the South African ATCOs don't have any internet at home/work, don't read this forum, don't know about the pending lease of foreign ATCOs or don't care about the above mentioned lease.
Maybe they also don't know that the European ATCOs will have their European salaries and will still be employed by their own ANSPs with all their normal benefits etc etc. Given the advantage of the bad (or good) exchange rate, the lads from SA stand to earn a great deal less than what their European counterparts will earn.
Maybe they also don't know that the European ATCOs will have their European salaries and will still be employed by their own ANSPs with all their normal benefits etc etc. Given the advantage of the bad (or good) exchange rate, the lads from SA stand to earn a great deal less than what their European counterparts will earn.
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I have no problem with it (I think I speak for most of the AREA pool at FACT) - in fact - I'll welcome (and train) any foreigners with the greatest pleasure!
Dunno if they'll be offering folks Cape Town ATCC though, and personally, no European ATC Salary would make it worth living in Joburg
P
Dunno if they'll be offering folks Cape Town ATCC though, and personally, no European ATC Salary would make it worth living in Joburg
P
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Nice to hear Porra.
In fact, the offer says "free choice of location" (ACC) if I understood it correctly, which probably means FACT will be quite popular.
How is it living in Capetown, could you enlighten a curious european...??
In fact, the offer says "free choice of location" (ACC) if I understood it correctly, which probably means FACT will be quite popular.
How is it living in Capetown, could you enlighten a curious european...??
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Sa atc
Good luck with the crime, u may not make it to work in ur car, it may be hijacked or u may b killed, management are monuments, everything is going up except ur salary that doesnt keep up, procedures that are pre historic which makes moving traffic a nightmare, The LOCAL ANSP appears not be in a very healthy financial state, people at HQ getting huge salaries to steal oxygen an staple pages,it really is a big joke, best bet is the land of sand, u get paid what u worth!
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thealps - do a quick search on Oranpo's previous posts and you'll see that he's an angry somewhat ignorant individual. Only reason that he's not in "the land of sand" is that they won't even have him!
Check ur pm's.
P
Check ur pm's.
P
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Hey Prascho
Sorry, don't really have an official offer that I can refer to. We've only been informed by management what might be happening but there's nothing substantial yet. Hoping to hear some more within a close future. Guess, though, that should it happen, it will probably be with a very short notice.
Seems like there really is some tension between the FACT- and the FAJS-guys. ORANPO- you really seem to see it all negative. I don't think we will see a lot of europeans going to J'burg voluntarily.
Porra- thanks for your PM.
Cheers!
Sorry, don't really have an official offer that I can refer to. We've only been informed by management what might be happening but there's nothing substantial yet. Hoping to hear some more within a close future. Guess, though, that should it happen, it will probably be with a very short notice.
Seems like there really is some tension between the FACT- and the FAJS-guys. ORANPO- you really seem to see it all negative. I don't think we will see a lot of europeans going to J'burg voluntarily.
Porra- thanks for your PM.
Cheers!
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Think again ...
Anybody going to SA needs their heads read.
1. The JS guys won't train you if you're "leased"
2. The criminals are running the country and the violence and anarchy is getting out of control.
The place, the people, the ATC system ... all going to
STAY AWAY!!!!!!
1. The JS guys won't train you if you're "leased"
2. The criminals are running the country and the violence and anarchy is getting out of control.
The place, the people, the ATC system ... all going to
STAY AWAY!!!!!!
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Thealps
Here are some of my thoughts on the matter.
1. ATNS managemnt will never approach the union or guild seeking their approval for the lease of european ATCO's. They regard it as management perogative and they do not need to inform their current employees. Luckily some IFATCA MA's had the forsight to ask the same question themselves. These were directed at the guild and union and when informed that ATNS had not told us management promptly reprimanded the staff concerned.
2. You are very lucky to receive an offer retaining your present salary and pay benefits. Just to give you some idea of what that means to me as a controller at FAJS allow me to do a simple comparison. Based on information from the offers by DFS in Germany I shall assume that you are currently earning about 7000 euros per month. Looking at the exchange rate today I saw that for one euro you could buy over twelve rand. For the purpose of this example let us assume that it is ten to one. This means that ATNS are prepared to pay you in excess of 70 000 rand per month while you are here. That is almost two and a half times what I currently earn and I've been doing this for more than ten years. This calculation is very conservative so the numbers are probably much more. If you consider that ATNS is probably looking at leasing ten or more ATCO's then it is going to cost them about one million rand per month. A one year contract equates to between twelve and fifteen million rand per year. Not bad for a company that is pleading poverty and is telling the union that it is technically insolvent.
3. Speaking of the union, it may interest you to know that the annual salary negotiations have ended in deadlock. This means that a private arbitration will now decide what our increase will be for the next year. ATNS offering a 7.5% increase on only a portion of our remunerations.
4. I have recently heard some colleagues discussing this idea amongst themselves and the thought is that while you are very welcome here they may not be inclined to give you the necessary instruction and validate you. I do not blame them for thinking like this.
5. Allow me to give you some advice - when it comes to ATNS make sure you get everything in writing and I mean everything. Do not accept anything they say, it is usually a bunch of lies. Remember too that they will swear you to secrecy so we will never find out the details of the deal they are offering you.
To conclude then, we shall all welcome you here but the best thing you could probably do for us is turn down any offer they make you. You are seen as a simple short term solution without any of us getting any benefit whatsoever. Once the 2010SWC is over they will ship you back home and we will be back in the same predicament we are in now, hopelessly short staffed.
I cannot tell you what to do so think about it from the perspective of your being in my shoes. Would you be comfortable if the roles were reversed.
Good luck with your decision making.
OOO
Here are some of my thoughts on the matter.
1. ATNS managemnt will never approach the union or guild seeking their approval for the lease of european ATCO's. They regard it as management perogative and they do not need to inform their current employees. Luckily some IFATCA MA's had the forsight to ask the same question themselves. These were directed at the guild and union and when informed that ATNS had not told us management promptly reprimanded the staff concerned.
2. You are very lucky to receive an offer retaining your present salary and pay benefits. Just to give you some idea of what that means to me as a controller at FAJS allow me to do a simple comparison. Based on information from the offers by DFS in Germany I shall assume that you are currently earning about 7000 euros per month. Looking at the exchange rate today I saw that for one euro you could buy over twelve rand. For the purpose of this example let us assume that it is ten to one. This means that ATNS are prepared to pay you in excess of 70 000 rand per month while you are here. That is almost two and a half times what I currently earn and I've been doing this for more than ten years. This calculation is very conservative so the numbers are probably much more. If you consider that ATNS is probably looking at leasing ten or more ATCO's then it is going to cost them about one million rand per month. A one year contract equates to between twelve and fifteen million rand per year. Not bad for a company that is pleading poverty and is telling the union that it is technically insolvent.
3. Speaking of the union, it may interest you to know that the annual salary negotiations have ended in deadlock. This means that a private arbitration will now decide what our increase will be for the next year. ATNS offering a 7.5% increase on only a portion of our remunerations.
4. I have recently heard some colleagues discussing this idea amongst themselves and the thought is that while you are very welcome here they may not be inclined to give you the necessary instruction and validate you. I do not blame them for thinking like this.
5. Allow me to give you some advice - when it comes to ATNS make sure you get everything in writing and I mean everything. Do not accept anything they say, it is usually a bunch of lies. Remember too that they will swear you to secrecy so we will never find out the details of the deal they are offering you.
To conclude then, we shall all welcome you here but the best thing you could probably do for us is turn down any offer they make you. You are seen as a simple short term solution without any of us getting any benefit whatsoever. Once the 2010SWC is over they will ship you back home and we will be back in the same predicament we are in now, hopelessly short staffed.
I cannot tell you what to do so think about it from the perspective of your being in my shoes. Would you be comfortable if the roles were reversed.
Good luck with your decision making.
OOO
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Hmmmmm..... Sounds really appealing...
Is there a big diffrence CT compared to JS when it comes to the crime-level??
Don't really understand why anyone wouldn't train a leased ATCO. First of all it's not his/her fault and second of all, as I understand it, SA needs every ATCO it could possibly get its hands on, especially for the world cup. Of course, the reason for having to lease foreign controllers is obvious, but since it will probably take some time to train all the people needed and others are leaving in bunches there's probably no other way out. Sounds, though, as if a lot of things need to change if SA will ever have the amount of ATCOs needed.
That is, however, not the leased ATCOs problem or fault.
Is there a big diffrence CT compared to JS when it comes to the crime-level??
Don't really understand why anyone wouldn't train a leased ATCO. First of all it's not his/her fault and second of all, as I understand it, SA needs every ATCO it could possibly get its hands on, especially for the world cup. Of course, the reason for having to lease foreign controllers is obvious, but since it will probably take some time to train all the people needed and others are leaving in bunches there's probably no other way out. Sounds, though, as if a lot of things need to change if SA will ever have the amount of ATCOs needed.
That is, however, not the leased ATCOs problem or fault.
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That is, however, not the leased ATCOs problem or fault"
Of course I realize that sitting next to a guy doing the same job as you but earning twice as much is very disturbing. I have tried to think about how we would react here, should it be the other way arround and that's why I started this thread in the first place!!
Also want to emphasize that there is no offer yet as far as I'm aware of. Our union has already, though, threatened anyone going without the consent of the SA union with exclusion. So not everyone sees this whole thing as a good idea here either.
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I bargained into a unit in Germany from Canada...I respected their experience, and respected the union...I dont expect to get paid tonnes of money because they need people...I expect to be indoctrinated to the environment as an equal.
I just tried to perceive the environment from their perspective. How do you view a foreigner who gets more than you for equal responsibility?...
You are right in saying its not the applicants fault that there is a shortage or how the leasing company deals with it, but I think we have a moral responsibility to consider our fellow ATCers, the conditions which they work and of course the impact you will have when entering it.
I just tried to perceive the environment from their perspective. How do you view a foreigner who gets more than you for equal responsibility?...
You are right in saying its not the applicants fault that there is a shortage or how the leasing company deals with it, but I think we have a moral responsibility to consider our fellow ATCers, the conditions which they work and of course the impact you will have when entering it.
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I think its an opportunity of a lifetime for any European ATCO. Don't know whether risking exclusion from your local union is worth it or not. I also don't think that its the applicant's fault or problem that he will be earning so much more than the locals. If anything, its their own as well as their union's fault for not looking after themselves!
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If anything, its their own as well as their union's fault for not looking after themselves!
Am I wrong? Do you feel fine going in, getting what you want and leaving without concern for how it affects others?
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tesox most of what you say makes sense and if it was for permanent positions I'd agree, UAE ACC controllers put out the same argument a number of years ago but for permanent placements. However SA over the next year is a different ball game, your union hasn't managed to convince management to staff correctly for 2010 so panic ensues as everyone realises there's trouble ahead. Leasing controllers is the only way you'll get sufficient staff in time and yes I think for short term contracts a premium will have to be paid. Remember ATNS' attempt to recruit controllers from OZ? Expecting controllers to move to another country on short term contracts just for the fun of it is a little naive. What ever happens I wish you all the luck in the world for next year cos you're gonna need it, hopefully the IPL might point out the short comings in the system.
FT
FT
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Okay, just a touch off subject, but how bad does traffic (air of course) get during the World Cup? Anybody ever worked one?
There may also be American's getting contracted to come to SA. I saw a posting last week.
There may also be American's getting contracted to come to SA. I saw a posting last week.