Aberdeen Runway Occupancy
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aberdeen ATC are in my opinion very good. There is however one individual that can, on occasion, come across shirty and direct. Can't take it too personally as its obviously just their nature. No issues with his controlling though.
Not aiming this at you MrHorgy, but I often wonder what visiting crews are expecting when they come to Aberdeen. I get the impresion that many crews don't realise how busy Aberdeen actually is. Couple the traffic with the fact that every aircraft wants to fly at different speeds (ranging from 90kts-250kts), I reckon ABZ ATC do a very good job.
In the last year the two go-arounds that I've done are at ABZ on 16 and both due to runway occupancy. If you have slowed abeam 32 it's still a fair distance (uphill) & time to vacate at the end. Lots of sweaty moments for the controllers I would think.
ps Major creep But whats the score with the airfield DME? Any idea when it's due back?
Not aiming this at you MrHorgy, but I often wonder what visiting crews are expecting when they come to Aberdeen. I get the impresion that many crews don't realise how busy Aberdeen actually is. Couple the traffic with the fact that every aircraft wants to fly at different speeds (ranging from 90kts-250kts), I reckon ABZ ATC do a very good job.
In the last year the two go-arounds that I've done are at ABZ on 16 and both due to runway occupancy. If you have slowed abeam 32 it's still a fair distance (uphill) & time to vacate at the end. Lots of sweaty moments for the controllers I would think.
ps Major creep But whats the score with the airfield DME? Any idea when it's due back?
Last edited by FlatBroke; 9th Feb 2009 at 17:40. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As someone who flies helis in and out of Aberdeen, I must say that ATC do good for both us and our FW brethren. Last week was a bit of a nightmare coming back from offshore when told to hold out at 30D from EGPD, due to SNOCLO initially, and then just waiting our turn to land. We were told we were No 8 and that was just RW traffic - there were FW in between.
After about 45 minutes of holding at various points we eventually went to Approach and then Director for our sequencing on to the ILS. It was all handled very well by courteous, professional controllers. On landing we saw about 3 FW waiting to go plus another 2 RW. They all had to be fitted in somewhere between all of the arrivals.
With regard to the individual on Tower as mentioned on the thread starter, there is only one that I have heard that can be like that. Usually it is when the pressure increases due to more than a couple of aircraft on frequency at the same time. I have heard that individual give a crew (unfortunately an operator no longer here) a real sharp talking to about their company ops and filing plans. Not sure it was necessary especially as it was a weekend and there is no GC, only TWR. It was difficult for everyone else to get their normal calls in. When this person had finished their rant, others got sharp replies as they tried to get their calls in for taxi, initial tower calls, etc, just because the controller was then trying to catch up with where everyone was!
Aberdeen ATC in general are a great bunch and will try their utmost when they can to speed every one on their way. Thanks everyone.
After about 45 minutes of holding at various points we eventually went to Approach and then Director for our sequencing on to the ILS. It was all handled very well by courteous, professional controllers. On landing we saw about 3 FW waiting to go plus another 2 RW. They all had to be fitted in somewhere between all of the arrivals.
With regard to the individual on Tower as mentioned on the thread starter, there is only one that I have heard that can be like that. Usually it is when the pressure increases due to more than a couple of aircraft on frequency at the same time. I have heard that individual give a crew (unfortunately an operator no longer here) a real sharp talking to about their company ops and filing plans. Not sure it was necessary especially as it was a weekend and there is no GC, only TWR. It was difficult for everyone else to get their normal calls in. When this person had finished their rant, others got sharp replies as they tried to get their calls in for taxi, initial tower calls, etc, just because the controller was then trying to catch up with where everyone was!
Aberdeen ATC in general are a great bunch and will try their utmost when they can to speed every one on their way. Thanks everyone.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been in/out ABZ for years B757 and now A319/320...
ABZ has no overruns to speak of, is frequently wet, in fact, worse than that, "wet wet wet!". There are no High Speed turnoffs, and despite the intersection turnoff on 34, you cannot really plan on it since when you do there's a helo there or something.
Braking actions on a runway often vary - and of course are much reduced when you try to turn, and when someone decides to paint numbers and piano keys on them
I have never been adminished by ATC there - I find them great, but it is not somewhere where minimum runway occupancy even crosses my mind
You land, get speed WELL under control, and then creep to the end. Anyone who has experienced the antiskid denying you braking will know the feeling
NoD
ABZ has no overruns to speak of, is frequently wet, in fact, worse than that, "wet wet wet!". There are no High Speed turnoffs, and despite the intersection turnoff on 34, you cannot really plan on it since when you do there's a helo there or something.
Braking actions on a runway often vary - and of course are much reduced when you try to turn, and when someone decides to paint numbers and piano keys on them
I have never been adminished by ATC there - I find them great, but it is not somewhere where minimum runway occupancy even crosses my mind
You land, get speed WELL under control, and then creep to the end. Anyone who has experienced the antiskid denying you braking will know the feeling NoD
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by FlatBroke
But whats the score with the airfield DME?
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the meantime we are being careful that aircraft are getting range checks on final approach.Got to be careful after the crash of a Korean 747 at Guam.They thought an offset DME was on the airfield,and flew it into the ground.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Scotland
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I sympathise with the first poster. There are two regular voices on ABZ frequencies who use a stern, sarcastic tone. Some years ago I had a SATCO from another airport jump-seating for familiarisation who couldn't believe the confrontational tone he heard from an ABZ controller to another aircraft.
I have suffered sarcastic or stern rebuke for:
Maintaining a previously assigned and declared high speed (>250kts) by the previous sector, because as is so often usual the ABZ approach controller ignored or forgot about the speed assigned on check-in. Not worth arguing about on the R/T.
Exiting 16 at the far end at 10kts; the maximum a 55 ton aeroplane will cope with on an even damp runway. And though we try to keep it rolling, aeroplanes are not cars......we can't go hoofing round the corner like your Ranger Shoguns. We have to get the aeroplane down to a reasonable pace on the runway and then continue to the end. From the tower this looks painfully slow, but is often around 30kts. It's foolhardy for a pilot to use almost the whole distance and then decelerate harder approaching the stop-end.
Daring to check in on departure with the radar controller with a passing FL for a cleared FL and being immediately chastised for not giving a passing altitude (lesson learned but this is not the way to go about it).
Frankly in the 6 years I have been operating at Aberdeen I am sick to death of these pathetic bullies. I would hazard a guess they would not be so aggressive face to face. The old yawn about "don't you know we are the xxx busiest airport in the UK" no longer bears any impression on me as my experience of similar volumes at other airports doesn't come close to comparing with ABZ's hard-acts.
I'm happy to say 90% of the controllers at ABZ are no different to any other busy UK controller; calm and efficient. I must qualify this post by emphasising it's only two of the voices in my opinion that are guilty of shouting down pilots. It's not often I get wound up on Pprune but it's about time something was done about these characters.
And yes, when it happens again I'll contact the Watch Manager. And yes, pilots who ask why they are a certain number in sequence get on my t*ts too.
Limpopo.........I remember that controller yelling to pilots about the flight plan re-filing. Totally out of order. A simple "you'll have to contact your company" standard reply would have worked.
I have suffered sarcastic or stern rebuke for:
Maintaining a previously assigned and declared high speed (>250kts) by the previous sector, because as is so often usual the ABZ approach controller ignored or forgot about the speed assigned on check-in. Not worth arguing about on the R/T.
Exiting 16 at the far end at 10kts; the maximum a 55 ton aeroplane will cope with on an even damp runway. And though we try to keep it rolling, aeroplanes are not cars......we can't go hoofing round the corner like your Ranger Shoguns. We have to get the aeroplane down to a reasonable pace on the runway and then continue to the end. From the tower this looks painfully slow, but is often around 30kts. It's foolhardy for a pilot to use almost the whole distance and then decelerate harder approaching the stop-end.
Daring to check in on departure with the radar controller with a passing FL for a cleared FL and being immediately chastised for not giving a passing altitude (lesson learned but this is not the way to go about it).
Frankly in the 6 years I have been operating at Aberdeen I am sick to death of these pathetic bullies. I would hazard a guess they would not be so aggressive face to face. The old yawn about "don't you know we are the xxx busiest airport in the UK" no longer bears any impression on me as my experience of similar volumes at other airports doesn't come close to comparing with ABZ's hard-acts.
I'm happy to say 90% of the controllers at ABZ are no different to any other busy UK controller; calm and efficient. I must qualify this post by emphasising it's only two of the voices in my opinion that are guilty of shouting down pilots. It's not often I get wound up on Pprune but it's about time something was done about these characters.
And yes, when it happens again I'll contact the Watch Manager. And yes, pilots who ask why they are a certain number in sequence get on my t*ts too.
Limpopo.........I remember that controller yelling to pilots about the flight plan re-filing. Totally out of order. A simple "you'll have to contact your company" standard reply would have worked.
Last edited by Kiltie; 10th Feb 2009 at 12:42.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland mainly, rather than at home.
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aberdeen ATC are in my opinion very good.
There is however one individual that can, on occasion, come across shirty and direct.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In t'sky
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FlatBroke -
Yeah that's something I plan on communicating to our flight ops about the field, I am more than willing to accept I had no idea it was so busy, the airport diagram had me stumped for a while because I couldn't work out why you'd have little runways like that heh..
NigelonDraft sums it up pretty well, we both trying to do out jobs as efficiently as possible but I guess sometimes weather makes it a bit gritty that's all.
Horgy
Yeah that's something I plan on communicating to our flight ops about the field, I am more than willing to accept I had no idea it was so busy, the airport diagram had me stumped for a while because I couldn't work out why you'd have little runways like that heh..
NigelonDraft sums it up pretty well, we both trying to do out jobs as efficiently as possible but I guess sometimes weather makes it a bit gritty that's all.
Horgy
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kiltie,
It would be interesting to know where the SATCO was from.
I have noticed over the last few years a change in the standard at ABZ.Perhaps there are one or two who are at their operating limit,both on tower and radar.
There are a huge amount of extra tasks we have to do,especially in the tower which can make a difficult job almost impossible.However the tower has been loaded up beyond the limit with training,to keep the customers happy.The co-ordination that the tower is required to do is ridiculous.The amount of vehicles that the tower has to speak to is too much.You get bombarded from all directions,and have to integrate all this on to 3 runways.I have worked elsewhere in the world,and if you can do ABZ tower,then you could validate in a hell of a lot of other places.
I personally hate doing the tower now,although I try not to let it get to the level of the individuals that have been mentioned in dispatches.Perhaps it is time to do something about it,(get out somehow),before my health suffers again.
There is also disquiet that the airport side gets a raw deal from unions and management,who really have little idea what goes on there.I'm sure Nats down south haven't got a clue about the operation.It's just done as it has always been,on the cheap.
Perhaps we are getting sick and tired of always having to provide this first class service
,with 3rd class conditions.We give services outside CAS,to operators taking shortcuts,when they are surrounded by military.We give services to heli training school,inside CAS,which increases the workload vastly.This is not our core task.We talk to 80% of outbounds unlike many units.The airspace to the south of ABZ is a total war zone,but lots of operators bimble along in there,oblivious to everything.We are not paid for any of this.
Anyway keep smiling and open another tinny.Wait for tomorrows bombardment.
It would be interesting to know where the SATCO was from.
I have noticed over the last few years a change in the standard at ABZ.Perhaps there are one or two who are at their operating limit,both on tower and radar.
There are a huge amount of extra tasks we have to do,especially in the tower which can make a difficult job almost impossible.However the tower has been loaded up beyond the limit with training,to keep the customers happy.The co-ordination that the tower is required to do is ridiculous.The amount of vehicles that the tower has to speak to is too much.You get bombarded from all directions,and have to integrate all this on to 3 runways.I have worked elsewhere in the world,and if you can do ABZ tower,then you could validate in a hell of a lot of other places.
I personally hate doing the tower now,although I try not to let it get to the level of the individuals that have been mentioned in dispatches.Perhaps it is time to do something about it,(get out somehow),before my health suffers again.
There is also disquiet that the airport side gets a raw deal from unions and management,who really have little idea what goes on there.I'm sure Nats down south haven't got a clue about the operation.It's just done as it has always been,on the cheap.
Perhaps we are getting sick and tired of always having to provide this first class service
,with 3rd class conditions.We give services outside CAS,to operators taking shortcuts,when they are surrounded by military.We give services to heli training school,inside CAS,which increases the workload vastly.This is not our core task.We talk to 80% of outbounds unlike many units.The airspace to the south of ABZ is a total war zone,but lots of operators bimble along in there,oblivious to everything.We are not paid for any of this.Anyway keep smiling and open another tinny.Wait for tomorrows bombardment.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Scotland
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
throwadyce
I sympathise with your working conditions, which are well known as diverse and arguably undermanned. However, pilots have their own "pushed to the limit" sh*t to deal with in their own operation. It is not least helped by MATS and its own local procedures differing from the publications that pilots have access to.
What is unforgiveable is aggression demonstrated behind the "safehouse" of the microphone. It's cowardly.
I, and I doubt the thread starter, had or ever practice the disregard of everyone else by manoeuvering our aeroplanes at a pace that suits their own whim on the day. I fly 160kts to 4 dme as standard for the hell of it every day unless otherwise instructed, but inside 4 dme my concentration on an 1829m runway without fast exits is focussed on stopping a large aeroplane safely; the stress of which is compounded with the knowledge that there is someone up my chuff waiting on a landing clearance.
I think the ideal, but unachievable scenario, is to put your two aggressive colleagues in the aeroplane driver's seat and see just how their ringpiece twitches with their feet on the pedals and trying to turn the nose gear tiller to the sound of the tyres parting company with the rims on the turnoff. It looks damned slow from your tower; I've seen it for myself up there.
PS Some operators that fly in the warzone are not "oblivious to everything" as you describe. The one operator I know you have concerns over before has a robust Class G briefing to pilots, and conditions of operating therein (ie mandatory RAS, mustn't downgrade to RIS intentionally) than operators of heavier, faster types, including mine!
Tinnies cracked open in the spirit of good comms
I sympathise with your working conditions, which are well known as diverse and arguably undermanned. However, pilots have their own "pushed to the limit" sh*t to deal with in their own operation. It is not least helped by MATS and its own local procedures differing from the publications that pilots have access to.
What is unforgiveable is aggression demonstrated behind the "safehouse" of the microphone. It's cowardly.
I, and I doubt the thread starter, had or ever practice the disregard of everyone else by manoeuvering our aeroplanes at a pace that suits their own whim on the day. I fly 160kts to 4 dme as standard for the hell of it every day unless otherwise instructed, but inside 4 dme my concentration on an 1829m runway without fast exits is focussed on stopping a large aeroplane safely; the stress of which is compounded with the knowledge that there is someone up my chuff waiting on a landing clearance.
I think the ideal, but unachievable scenario, is to put your two aggressive colleagues in the aeroplane driver's seat and see just how their ringpiece twitches with their feet on the pedals and trying to turn the nose gear tiller to the sound of the tyres parting company with the rims on the turnoff. It looks damned slow from your tower; I've seen it for myself up there.
PS Some operators that fly in the warzone are not "oblivious to everything" as you describe. The one operator I know you have concerns over before has a robust Class G briefing to pilots, and conditions of operating therein (ie mandatory RAS, mustn't downgrade to RIS intentionally) than operators of heavier, faster types, including mine!
Tinnies cracked open in the spirit of good comms
Last edited by Kiltie; 10th Feb 2009 at 23:20.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kiltie,
We introduced standard gaps to stop this sort of thing happening.On 16 you need a minimum7 miles gap to get an outbound away,without having to resort to the handbrake turn at the end.It took a lot to convince the powers that be of the need,and the process is still ongoing.Actually it took an incident as usual.
I can't speak for the two people you mention,but I know what it is like to land a jet at ABZ.As part of out training many moons ago,we got to fly the Trident 3 sim at Heathrow.I landed it at ABZ.That was interesting,just getting it to stop was the major issue,so I can understand where you are coming from.
Regarding the 2 individuals,then I have had issues with a few there,and they are quite capable of being just as aggressive with their fellow controllers.I'm sure that the powers that be are taking note.
As far as ATSOCAS goes.Ok you may get a RAS,but that isn't really going to save you from the military banging out of low level,straight up.You may get some warning from us,but we could be busy doing our primary tasks.If you see that airspace from our side,then it's taking a real gamble sometimes to go in Class G,even though you know the difference between RAS and RIS.
We introduced standard gaps to stop this sort of thing happening.On 16 you need a minimum7 miles gap to get an outbound away,without having to resort to the handbrake turn at the end.It took a lot to convince the powers that be of the need,and the process is still ongoing.Actually it took an incident as usual.
I can't speak for the two people you mention,but I know what it is like to land a jet at ABZ.As part of out training many moons ago,we got to fly the Trident 3 sim at Heathrow.I landed it at ABZ.That was interesting,just getting it to stop was the major issue,so I can understand where you are coming from.
Regarding the 2 individuals,then I have had issues with a few there,and they are quite capable of being just as aggressive with their fellow controllers.I'm sure that the powers that be are taking note.
As far as ATSOCAS goes.Ok you may get a RAS,but that isn't really going to save you from the military banging out of low level,straight up.You may get some warning from us,but we could be busy doing our primary tasks.If you see that airspace from our side,then it's taking a real gamble sometimes to go in Class G,even though you know the difference between RAS and RIS.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: North of Birmingham by a lot
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Horgy,
Thanks for your thread, it has hopefully shown the 1 or 2 'stroppy' individuals how they come across on the R/T. (Public humiliation always works I find!!) There are approx 50 controllers at Aberdeen and to have 1 maybe 2 sarccy ones is probably a pretty fair ratio. I agree with all the previous posters that in a professional and dynamic environment 'having it out' or being sarcastic on the radio is unprofessional, petty and probably egotistical. (Surely that's what humour is for?!)
ABZ is a fairly unusual operation with its fair share of unusual scenarios but having a large aircraft stop asap on a short, wet runway cannot be called unusual. Even the Air France Embraers do it regularly so it is not exactly unheard of!
TAD,
Still disagree with you over the risks in Class G to the South of Aberdeen. I've only ever given 1 avoiding action to that airline and that was because the crew missed my first RAS call. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the issue!
Limpopo,
Thanks for your kind words. Last week was testing for both sides of the R/T.
Regards, ADIS
Thanks for your thread, it has hopefully shown the 1 or 2 'stroppy' individuals how they come across on the R/T. (Public humiliation always works I find!!) There are approx 50 controllers at Aberdeen and to have 1 maybe 2 sarccy ones is probably a pretty fair ratio. I agree with all the previous posters that in a professional and dynamic environment 'having it out' or being sarcastic on the radio is unprofessional, petty and probably egotistical. (Surely that's what humour is for?!)
ABZ is a fairly unusual operation with its fair share of unusual scenarios but having a large aircraft stop asap on a short, wet runway cannot be called unusual. Even the Air France Embraers do it regularly so it is not exactly unheard of!
TAD,
Still disagree with you over the risks in Class G to the South of Aberdeen. I've only ever given 1 avoiding action to that airline and that was because the crew missed my first RAS call. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the issue!
Limpopo,
Thanks for your kind words. Last week was testing for both sides of the R/T.
Regards, ADIS
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ADIS,
I have seen a lot of avoiding actions down there.Even seen two near collisions.But I respect your opinion on that.On the airport side there are only 25-30,and how many of them are fully valid?
I have seen a lot of avoiding actions down there.Even seen two near collisions.But I respect your opinion on that.On the airport side there are only 25-30,and how many of them are fully valid?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: North of Birmingham by a lot
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
letM,
I was only 7 hours late for an 8 hour shift, don't see the problem myself! After all, thats why the Company employs you, to cover for when the professionals can't get in!
Regards ADIS
I was only 7 hours late for an 8 hour shift, don't see the problem myself! After all, thats why the Company employs you, to cover for when the professionals can't get in!
Regards ADIS
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In t'sky
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NS:
We don't, infact we stopped in some 1400m or less. The problem was WHERE we stopped, and the "issue" we caused to a certain member of staff at ABZ who had stacked his cards in such a way so that our actions nearly brought everything crashing down. 738 is a great airplane, we could have stopped even shorter had we not cancelled reverse early on - stamping on the brakes at Max Auto isn't good for passenger comfort!
Horgy
We don't, infact we stopped in some 1400m or less. The problem was WHERE we stopped, and the "issue" we caused to a certain member of staff at ABZ who had stacked his cards in such a way so that our actions nearly brought everything crashing down. 738 is a great airplane, we could have stopped even shorter had we not cancelled reverse early on - stamping on the brakes at Max Auto isn't good for passenger comfort!
Horgy